Topic: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)

[leekellerking]

Bikey (my 1982 CB650SC) is ailing again and so I appeal to the group mind for help (or at least, consolation).

I was riding home on my 28 mile (one way) commute when I thumbed the right blinker as I exited the HOV lane.  No blinker!  Damn, I thought.  That's no good. 

I exited the freeway and stopped for the light.  Still no operating blinkers. 

Damn!  The bike died.  Not enough battery to restart it, so I pushed it down the road to the Bank of America parking lot.  I pulled the left side cover (site of  the previous electrical mystery), but everything seemed okay.

I pulled out my Blackberry, texted my wife and my assistant den leader (yes, I had a Cub Scout den meeting tonight), then I called my the American Motorcyclist Association roadserve service number.  45 minutes for the wrecker, so I pushed the bike to a more visible spot and walked next door to Whataburger.

Twenty minutes later, I figured "why not give it a try" and turned the switch and hit the start button.  Varooommm -- Bikey started right up!  And now the turn signals were working again.  Argghhhh!!!!!


So, now Bikey is siting safely in my garage on the battery tender.  He starts and runs fine and the only thing that was obviously wrong was that the oil was low (I'm waiting on a new oil pressure light switch because mine weeps oil). 

What the heck is up???

Can anyone think of a reason my blinkers would go out AND the bike would die when hot, but be fine once it cooled off?

To be honest, I did pull the headlight bucket off Sunday when I replaced the lights in the tach and speedo.  But how could that cause Bikey to die, and why wait four days to do it? (It's not like I wasn't haulin ass on Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday)

I guess I have to drive the cage to work tomorrow, and I HATE driving to work!

Any ideas?

Lee

[Spanner 1]

Might be time to re-visit the h/l bucket and undo and re-do each connection in there.....also I think a failing ign. switch would act like that just before quitting for good....!

[bucky katt]

make sure your battery terminals are nice and clean too, pull the cables off and scrub both terminals and cable ends good, re-assemble them then use either dielectric grease or wd-40 if you dont have the grease, to prevent further corrosion.

[Steve F]

Might be time to re-visit the h/l bucket and undo and re-do each connection in there.....also I think a failing ign. switch would act like that just before quitting for good....!

+1 on the ign. switch,  Had a similar situation a while back, and it was because of the switch getting too hot from the dirty internal contacts that the palstic holding the contacts started to melt!  Took apart the switch (carefuly) and cleaned everything up and viola! no more problem.  (disclaimer: individual results may vary  )
Also, check the fuse holder and the fuses for overheating due to dirty and/or corroded fuse clips which could cause the fuses to melt on the ends.  Steve F.

[leekellerking]

Okay, battery is new and terminals are clean with dielectric grease.

Ignition switch is less than one year since rebuild.

I will check the fuses and then (reluctantly) open up the headlight bucket.    

Lee

[MJL]

I hate to say check your charging, but a low battery would cause the engine to not start right away, but let it sit for awhile and they seem to regain a portion of the charge, possibly enough to restart the bike.

Corroded connections cause resistance, which causes heat, which causes more resistance.  My number one rule of electrical trouble is check and clean connections.

[the technological J]

any of ur fuse holders look melted at all? if so id look at the wires inside the fuse panel

[leekellerking]

Or, a bad battery could cause the problem.  At least, Cycle Gear says the battery tests bad and replaced it today.

I am still going to check my ground in the headlight bucket and I will probably throw the scope on the output again, just for grins.  However, the short answer is that my new YUASA battery seems to have gone South.

Just in case, I'm going to take the cage to work tomorrow (I have an appointment I HAVE to make) and will probably ride in Tuesday.  Heck, I have 2 more free tows left on my AMA Champion membership, so what the heck!


Lee
[Join the American Motorcyclist Association for $39.00 a year and get free towing!  http://bit.ly/32Fd2d]

I hate to say check your charging, but a low battery would cause the engine to not start right away, but let it sit for awhile and they seem to regain a portion of the charge, possibly enough to restart the bike.

Corroded connections cause resistance, which causes heat, which causes more resistance.  My number one rule of electrical trouble is check and clean connections.

[Don R]

What they said and one more on the fuse block. We just had that yesterday on my brothers 74. We robbed a project bike of it's fuse block and it's  been fine since. The signal issue sounds a little different though.

[leekellerking]

An update:

I had the battery checked out and it was bad.  I got it replaced under warranty at Cycle Gear and also checked the ground in the headlight bucket.  Rode to work yesterday and not problems getting there.

However, on the way home it did it again.  This time on the freaking HOV lane.  This time, I was paying a little more attention.

The lights did not dim, they just went out.  Headlight, running lights and blinkers just cut out.  A few miles later, the engine cut out, too.

After cooling down for a while, the lights came back on, but I couldn't get her to restart.

This morning I tried starting the bike and my battery was, while still powering the lights pretty brightly, too weak to turn it over.  After 20 minutes on the trickle charger she cranked right up!

So, I am thinking there is something shorting out when the bike gets hot.  What do you all think?

Lee 

[Steve F]

Just a thought, but is your exhaust on the "loud" side, enough so that you couldn't hear the starter motor turning while the engine is running?  I once had a starter button that got stuck, and I didn't know it for quite some time, and it could have done some real damage if I didn't notice it, or maybe make the battery go flat.
I'd still have a look at the BACK side of the fuse holder where all the wires connect, and look for bad/cold solder joints and corrosion, and if that checks out, I would take a look at the ign. switch.  Be sure the fuse holder clips are shiney clean and tight on the fuses.

[Spanner 1]

All tho' Cycle Gear changed-out the battery, it was not bad off-the-shelf, just depleted cos' your charging system ( horror of horrors )  is not working. Time to put the meter on the battery and read the voltage@ 2,000, 3,000, 4.000 and 5,000 rpm..... I think you have done this before, Lee.! I have rode sucessfully for 2 hours on a fully charged battery with a no-charging alt. and did not even know until it all quit, no warning.....

[HondaMan]

This sounds a lot like a bad rectifier. It will slowly drain a battery when cold, and drain the whole system pretty quickly after it gets hot. Look for these indicators, if you don't know how to use an ohmmeter to check the rectifier:

1. Curled-up, overheated paint on the rectifier fins.
2. Overheated connector where the rectifier plugs in: it may be discolored and/or melted.
3. Dirty or melted engine connector (at the top left rear of the engine). These are often in poor condition from years of carwash soap eating away at the contacts inside, which makes the alternator charge poorly. Try unplugging it, cleaning the blades with a tiny flat screwdriver, and reassemble to see if it helps.

Report back?

[leekellerking]

Well, I got good news, and bad news.



The good news is --  I think I've found the problem!





 
 
 
 



The bad news is it appears my stator is toast.

With the bike running, I got nada, zilch voltage coming out of the regulator/rectifier.  Working my way backwards, I pulled the connector from the stator to the reg/rec and a big bunch of nothing from there, too.

I put the VOM to the leads from the stator with the engine off, as per the Clymer manual.  I got infinite resistance between the yellow lines. 

Then I physically pulled the stator and I saw crispy wires where the yellow wires attach to the stator. 

I'm open to other suggestions, but as the stator is the only part of the charging system that I have not already replaced, I think I have a "winner."

[Spanner 1]

Just to check were on the same page..... if a Digital meter then set it for lowest R option ( probably 200 ohms ). Red and black leads touched together = 0 ohms,( might read 0.1 or 0.2 ohms) separated = 'OL' in display....so, the stator on your bike, any yellow to any yellow with connector undone, should read about 0.5 ohms...an analogue meter may not be accurate enough to show a reading so low the needle would swing all the way, same as touching the leads together..... I'm sure your aware of this, you and Kit were 'married' in a charging problem already...!!, right..

[leekellerking]

That is my understanding, too. 

I would not be so convince if not for the following:

1. DC volts coming out of the regulator/rectifier = 0.00

2. AC volts coming out of the wires from stator to reg/rec = 0.00

3. Resistance of any yellow/yellow pair = 1 (infinity, same as if VOM leads not touching)

4. Existence of "crispy" wires in stator (the bare wires which basically are looped over the ends of the insulated yellow wires).

A few weeks ago, I was getting 12 to 13.5 volts coming out of the reg/rec (depending on RPM).  Zero just ain't right!


Lee

Just to check were on the same page..... if a Digital meter then set it for lowest R option ( probably 200 ohms ). Red and black leads touched together = 0 ohms,( might read 0.1 or 0.2 ohms) separated = 'OL' in display....so, the stator on your bike, any yellow to any yellow with connector undone, should read about 0.5 ohms...an analogue meter may not be accurate enough to show a reading so low the needle would swing all the way, same as touching the leads together..... I'm sure your aware of this, you and Kit were 'married' in a charging problem already...!!, right..

[new2novas]

this may sound obvious, but make sure your meter is even working by putting it to a know source, the batt of the bike or even your car....i thought my stator was bad, but in my research it seem that there is very very few stator failures.   

[mystic_1]

4. Existence of "crispy" wires in stator (the bare wires which basically are looped over the ends of the insulated yellow wires).

The stator wiring itself is not 'bare' but rather insulated with enamel which is a sorta brown color.  The wiring may not be actually crispy, unless there's bubbling or flaking evident, or obvious scorch marks.  That said, if you do have a failure in the enamel, it would manifest as a direct short of the stator coil (0 ohms resistance).  For infinite resistance there has to be a mechanical failure of some sort, ie a broken wire.

mystic_1

[leekellerking]

this may sound obvious, but make sure your meter is even working by putting it to a know source, the batt of the bike or even your car....i thought my stator was bad, but in my research it seem that there is very very few stator failures.   

Obvious enough that it ocurred to me. 

My battery (right off the tricle charger) shows 12.5 volts. 

However, the charging circuit shows zero volts.

[leekellerking]

The stator wiring itself is not 'bare' but rather insulated with enamel which is a sorta brown color.  The wiring may not be actually crispy, unless there's bubbling or flaking evident, or obvious scorch marks.  That said, if you do have a failure in the enamel, it would manifest as a direct short of the stator coil (0 ohms resistance).  For infinite resistance there has to be a mechanical failure of some sort, ie a broken wire.

mystic_1

I was unclear.  There are little bare wires which basically lace the insulated yellow wires to the rim of the stator.  Those wires were brittle and broke off in my hand.

I might have one broken wire in the yellows, but I can't see all of them being broken.  I figure, if I can get a rewound stator for about $120 bucks which will include a new stator harness.  And it is hte only part of the charging system I haven't replaced on a nearly 30,000 mile bike.

I dunno -- If I get motivated later today, I might go check continuity on the stator harness. 
Lee

[mystic_1]

Get some pics if you can, but yeah if you can score a rewound stator and harness for $120 that seems like the safe way to go.

mystic_1

[HondaMan]

That is my understanding, too. 

I would not be so convince if not for the following:

1. DC volts coming out of the regulator/rectifier = 0.00

2. AC volts coming out of the wires from stator to reg/rec = 0.00

3. Resistance of any yellow/yellow pair = 1 (infinity, same as if VOM leads not touching)

4. Existence of "crispy" wires in stator (the bare wires which basically are looped over the ends of the insulated yellow wires).

A few weeks ago, I was getting 12 to 13.5 volts coming out of the reg/rec (depending on RPM).  Zero just ain't right!


Lee

Just to check were on the same page..... if a Digital meter then set it for lowest R option ( probably 200 ohms ). Red and black leads touched together = 0 ohms,( might read 0.1 or 0.2 ohms) separated = 'OL' in display....so, the stator on your bike, any yellow to any yellow with connector undone, should read about 0.5 ohms...an analogue meter may not be accurate enough to show a reading so low the needle would swing all the way, same as touching the leads together..... I'm sure your aware of this, you and Kit were 'married' in a charging problem already...!!, right..

You are now the fourth person to report a burned-up SOHC alternator from one of those shunt regulator Reg-Rec units.

I'd encourage you to go back to the OEM regulator with your new one, lest you get hit again. The Reg-Rec regulators make the alternators get real hot on these bikes, and the insulation on these parts are not rated for that kind of heat. If the bike is ridden infrequently and for short trips, those Reg-recs can work out OK, but even the CB360T (like the one I'm working on now) suffer insulation damage from those shunt regulators if used in commuting or touring service.

I have a post somewhere about these gadgets and how they work: maybe search for it and study it, so you know the issues?   

[leekellerking]

What is the difference between OEM and the oregonmotorcycleparts reg/rec?

That is my understanding, too. 

I would not be so convince if not for the following:

1. DC volts coming out of the regulator/rectifier = 0.00

2. AC volts coming out of the wires from stator to reg/rec = 0.00

3. Resistance of any yellow/yellow pair = 1 (infinity, same as if VOM leads not touching)

4. Existence of "crispy" wires in stator (the bare wires which basically are looped over the ends of the insulated yellow wires).

A few weeks ago, I was getting 12 to 13.5 volts coming out of the reg/rec (depending on RPM).  Zero just ain't right!


Lee

Just to check were on the same page..... if a Digital meter then set it for lowest R option ( probably 200 ohms ). Red and black leads touched together = 0 ohms,( might read 0.1 or 0.2 ohms) separated = 'OL' in display....so, the stator on your bike, any yellow to any yellow with connector undone, should read about 0.5 ohms...an analogue meter may not be accurate enough to show a reading so low the needle would swing all the way, same as touching the leads together..... I'm sure your aware of this, you and Kit were 'married' in a charging problem already...!!, right..

You are now the fourth person to report a burned-up SOHC alternator from one of those shunt regulator Reg-Rec units.

I'd encourage you to go back to the OEM regulator with your new one, lest you get hit again. The Reg-Rec regulators make the alternators get real hot on these bikes, and the insulation on these parts are not rated for that kind of heat. If the bike is ridden infrequently and for short trips, those Reg-recs can work out OK, but even the CB360T (like the one I'm working on now) suffer insulation damage from those shunt regulators if used in commuting or touring service.

I have a post somewhere about these gadgets and how they work: maybe search for it and study it, so you know the issues?   

[mystic_1]

What is the difference between OEM and the oregonmotorcycleparts reg/rec?

He sells different types, which one(s) do you have?

mystic_1

[leekellerking]

I was wondering the same thing, so I asked.

Tony says I have the "current limiting" regulator/rectifier.  The shunt type are for permanent-magnet alternators and he doesn't make them, anyway.


Lee

What is the difference between OEM and the oregonmotorcycleparts reg/rec?

He sells different types, which one(s) do you have?

mystic_1