Author Topic: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?  (Read 5153 times)

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Offline grumpy

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Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« on: November 06, 2009, 12:57:41 PM »
I've blow 4 front running lights on my K3 in the last 2 weeks.
Why?!?!?!
I don't think it's a overload issue because I have the Vreg set to 14.5 VDC at >1,500 RPMs.
I know it's accurate because I have a digital voltmeter permanently hooked to the battery and I checked it against the Vreg output w/ my VOM - they're both at 14.5V.

2 or maybe 3 could be just dumb luck but now we're at 4 !!! WTF???

Offline kslrr

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2009, 01:17:37 PM »
Vibration is a filament type bulb's worst enemy.  Is the mounting stock?  Many automotive bulbs come in Heavy Duty versions.
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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2009, 01:48:45 PM »
I found in my bike that the previous owner had replaced all the bulbs with 6 volt versions so that they were more visible.  They do run twice as bright, but they certainly tend to burn out sooner than their 12 volt cousins.  I only noticed the second time I replaced them that the part numbers were actually 6 volt instead of 12 volt.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2009, 03:06:20 PM »
I second the shock and vibration causes, or bulbs that aren't rated for a vibration environment.

Cheaper bulbs aren't so cheap if they have to be replaced 4 times as often. ;D
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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2009, 03:26:37 PM »
Where can I get rough duty bulbs?
Kragen doesn't have any...

Maybe NAPA?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2009, 03:29:48 PM »
Dare I suggest Honda?
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2009, 04:31:36 PM »
or switch to led's that go into the bulb socket.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2009, 01:52:33 PM »
Dare I suggest Honda?

Nah. Too obvious.
(and they don't have them, anyway. I checked)

or switch to led's that go into the bulb socket.

I considered that a while ago but I don't want to deal w/ the whole flashed dummy load thing...
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 01:56:35 PM by grumpy »

Offline 333

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2009, 02:20:21 PM »
Dare I suggest Honda?

Nah. Too obvious.
(and they don't have them, anyway. I checked)
I considered that a while ago but I don't want to deal w/ the whole flashed dummy load thing...

Make the dealer order them.  Not only are they heavy duty filaments, but some have an extra filament holder in the middle of the filament.

LEDs aren't a bad idea either.  Loading resistors aren't needed if you get the right flasher unit.  It is all plug and play if you do it right.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2009, 02:55:29 PM »
Make the dealer order them.  Not only are they heavy duty filaments, but some have an extra filament holder in the middle of the filament.
I've been asking around & all the parts guys think I'm a loon.
Do you know the brand / part # ?
I tried google w/out any luck...

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2009, 04:13:54 PM »
Try a site that deals in off roading supplies.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2009, 04:32:45 PM »
Wasn't it Stanley that made the bulbs for Honda.

You are using 1034 fronts, right? (And... not the higher wattage more fragile 1157.)

http://www.donsbulbs.com/cgi-bin/r/b.pl/1034.html

edit: corrected link.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 11:55:41 PM by TwoTired »
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Offline Honda George

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2009, 05:34:06 PM »
I had the same problem with my 1972 750 halogen headlight bulb. It turned out to be a loose ground. Fixed that and haven't had any problems since.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2009, 07:55:31 PM »
Grumpy, there's nothing wrong with your bulbs...they should blow if your feeding them with 14.5volts@1,500rpm !! If that's the voltage @ 1.5K, then it's probably maxing-out @ 4K @ about 18volts...!!  Get back into your VREG and have it max out @ 14.5volts at 4,000 rpm.
At 1,500 RPM it should be making about 12.2volts......! ( Numbers per Honda Manual P.90, R.P.M./Voltage Chart )...Also mucho stress on yer ALT. with a ( loaded) output of 14.5v @ 1500 rpm....
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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2009, 09:51:03 PM »
I have a solid state Vreg - it goes to 14.5 and stays there all the way to redline (and likely beyond).

Ya know... I always wondered about the discrepancy between the 12V rating on the bulbs and the 14.5V. What's up with that? Shouldn't there be either 14.5V bulbs or a 12V charging system?

But what's the deal with stressing the the alternator?
I'm guessing you're thinking it's working pretty hard to produce 14.5 at a low RPM?  ???
Never though about that...


Oh, and yep: 1034's
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 09:56:02 PM by grumpy »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2009, 12:06:02 AM »
You can't stress the alternator with a faulty regulator.  It is self limiting with its production capacity.  You can't make it deliver more than it is capable of producing.

The regulator is mainly to protect the battery.

Bulbs are generally rated for power consumption @ 12.8V.  This sets the filament resistance, which remains fixed at any voltage it encounters.  Of course with fixed resistance, varying the voltage will also vary the current and power drawn through it.

I fixed the wrong link in my prior post, btw.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2009, 11:19:43 AM »
With the mechanical regulator the alt. is only asked to produce 12.2v @ 1,500 rpm....it's still the same battery and field/ stator so why would it not be bad to ( new reg. ) ask it to produce 14.5v at the same rpm ??  The wattage will be seriously reduced and be of no/little use in maintaining battery charge.......... yes ?
Your alt. reaches 14.5v probably at idle or slightly above and stays there overloading the bulbs on the bike from the 'get go '...IMO.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2009, 06:02:37 PM »
With the mechanical regulator the alt. is only asked to produce 12.2v @ 1,500 rpm....
That is incorrect.  The alternator is asked for far more power, but is incapable of providing enough power for both the bike electrical loads and also put energy in the battery.  The voltage being read here is the battery in the process of depleting.

it's still the same battery and field/ stator so why would it not be bad to ( new reg. ) ask it to produce 14.5v at the same rpm ??  
It >IS< "asking".  The alternator simply has production limits.  (not knowing the "new" regulator design, it must be assumed that it controls the alternator field strength to keep the battery near its peak set point, and reduces the alternator filed strength when that limit is exceed.  You have no data or rooted theory as to why the voltage would go as high as your suspicions predict.)

About the original design...
The mechanical regulator applies full voltage to the alternator field coil whenever the battery falls below a certain level.
At idle, the battery is draining, and so requires charging.  The mechanical relay is then closed and whatever voltage the battery has, gets applied to the alternator field.  The output of the alternator is all it can be, given the RPM of the rotor.  Spin it faster and it will make more power, up to a point.

When the battery achieves enough charge (14.5v) the regulator then opens the relay contact, and allows the field coil to be driven via an in-line resistance (if I recall correctly, a 10 ohm resistor).  This drops the voltage to the field coil, reducing the strength of the magnetic field and the output capability of the alternator at whatever RPM it is spinning.  If the battery voltage continues to climb above the 14.5v set point, the relay closes to the opposite contact, which applies a direct short across the alternator field winding.  This kills the magnetic field in the alternator entirely, and the output is then nil at any alternator RPM.  However, if there is a load on the battery, the battery voltage falls, the regulator then selects one of the other relay positions (and alternator field strength) based on the voltage level the battery presents to it.  At some RPM/load conditions, the mechanical relay points "chatter" or oscillate, which provides and "average" magnetic field strength to satisfy battery charge state requirements.

The alternator output capability is non-fixed and non linear with RPM.  At Zero RPM there is no output.  At 5000 RPM it is capable if 210 Watts output (CB750).  The upper output level is limited by the magnetic field strength saturation and of the alternator component configuration (core permeability, number of flux lines crossing the number of wires, frequency and time duration of flux crossings, resistance of the wires, etc.)  You can't take more energy out of it the it can convert.

With the RPM at idle, the output capability is reduced from the 210 Watt peak. (1/2 or lower) simply due to the frequency of the flux crossings across the windings.   Further, loading the alternator output reduces the peak voltages developed within the windings.  This effects the time duration of the flux crossing (due to the sinusoidal nature of the AC waveform).  This means that the power developed is limited/reduced.
You could actually short the output winding together and the alternator would survive as the sinusoid peaks developed would be so low as to make little power to heat the windings  (perhaps not the external shorting wires, unless you make them really big).

As a DC load on the rectifier, the diodes would fail far before any damage to the alternator could occur. (assumes stock rectifier.  But, I expect further analysis would show any rectifier that could survive the current limits placed upon it, would STILL not damage the alternator stator.)

To damage the stator, at least 2 rectifier diodes would have to short, and survive the current flow from the battery into the stator windings (along with the associated wiring, which is highly unlikely.)  I seriously doubt the 750 alternator could make enough power to damage itself due to physics limitations of the components and design.

A "new" regulator, likely replaces the relay with a solid state device which still controls the battery voltage via the alternator field coil strength, using the voltage fed to the field coils as a means toward that control.  There is no valid reason why a "new regulator" would allow the battery or distributed system voltage to rise higher than 14.5 V.  (Unless the "new regulator" designer was as daft as you are suggesting.)

Sorry, this is quite a thread-jack, off the original topic.


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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2009, 07:03:24 PM »
So, TT, your O.K. with the constant 14.5v being produced ( at varying wattage ) across much of the bikes rpm range, i.e. always above recommended voltage for the bulbs ( ignition not as critical ).... rather than a varying voltage peaking at 14.5v, seems way more tolerable to the bulbs to me.... bottom line is the solid state regulator/rectifier is designed for later bikes that have the brush set connected rotor/ stator combination. The solid state devise is not 'one-size-fits-all, in it's designed app.( presuming this reg. is from a later DOHC bike ) it does not produce 14.5v until 4 to 5 k rpm. with it's designed rotor/stator. On topic; 14.5v constant must shorten bulb life, not daft at all.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2009, 09:38:48 PM »
Well, Spanner, I must say you are a bulldog with the notions you contrive.

From the link I posted earlier that has all the specs for the 1034 bulb.
It is a dual element bulb. 
@ 12.8 v it is rated 23/8.3 watts, and draws 1.8 / 0.648 amps at that supplied voltage.
Design hours is 200/5000.

Assuming grumpy's bike is wired correctly and he has not powered the blinker filament with the running wires, and the running filament with the winker wires, we can calculate what the higher voltage (14.5v) draws.
12.8V at 0.648 amps requires the run filament to be 19.75 ohms.  Apply, 14.5V to a 19.75 ohm filament, and it draws 0.734 amps or 10.64 watts.  Or, 2.3 watts more than rated spec.  This is only 25-27% above rating.  And any automotive system designer is going to know that 14.5v is a normal expectation in the vehicle electrical system.
Even if we derate the normal 5000 hours by 25-27%, the bulb life is still 3700 hours - ish.
Of course, vibration is not part of this reliability specification.

So, to answer your question directly...
Quote
So, TT, your O.K. with the constant 14.5v being produced
Yes.  It is well within the design environment expected on a bike, and is not outside of normal for bike operation while cruising on the open highway for hours on end.



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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2009, 10:24:17 PM »
Holy crap TT!   
Man, I need a flow chart to follow that.  ;D

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2009, 11:08:42 PM »
If the glass of the bulb is black or silver its an over voltage/bad ground fault---If the filament is broken/fallen off its a vibration fault


Bit of generalisation, but a good starting point!!

Oh and all modern generators, brush or permag are regulated at 14.5 volts which they will only reach when the battery has reached full charge
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2009, 11:49:53 PM »
Holy crap TT!   
Man, I need a flow chart to follow that.  ;D

What you need to verify is that the running lights are way dimmer than the turn sigs on the front.  If it is wired backwards, you are powering the turn signal filaments (very Bright) with the running light wires.
When the sigs are selected, the run light should turn off.  If your turn flashing is dimmer than you run lamps, you have it wired backwards.

If you do have it backwards, it might explain why you have short lamp life, as the turn signal filaments are not expected to be on all the time, and when they are selected, normally they are only powered intermittently, not for the duration of the ride.
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Offline grumpy

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2009, 07:06:04 AM »
What you need to verify is that the running lights are way dimmer than the turn sigs on the front.  
When the sigs are selected, the run light should turn off.  

yep and yep.

very unlikely it's wiring as I've been riding this thing daily for 2 years w/ no probs til now... unless something went bad/melted/corroded etc.

« Last Edit: November 09, 2009, 07:08:28 AM by grumpy »

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Why do I keep blowing front running lights?
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2009, 09:26:30 AM »
Thanks, TT, for your long description of the stock regulator and it's operation.  When I'm riding for hours on the highway I know that my battery is cycling between rest ( a considerable part of the time ) and 1/2 charge, peak 14.5v..... much better for the battery than a constant peak voltage applied at varying wattage ( current ). It's not being a 'bulldog' to have an opinion on this Forum. We don't know if the  solid state reg. ever shuts-off or only reduces wattage to near 0 while holding 14.5v when battery is at full charge........... I prefer the former set-up, but go ahead and 'boil' your batteries if you want......!! IMO ( as always!).
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