Topic: What else can come out of the carbs?

[csendker]

My first carb cleaning project, and I don't want to wreck anything.  I've opened them up and pulled out the obvious stuff, but what else comes out for a full cleaning job?  And what is the thing I circled?  One end is pointy, the other has a spring loaded plunger.  I read up on carb operation, but the guts of mine don't seem to jive with the diagrams I looked at.  And once they're all apart, is there any way to tell what jets I have?

I'm soaking them in purple cleaner first, to get the major crud off and loosen everything up for dissassembly.  It has worked so far as two stuck floats loosened up, and the pins have now come out without a problem.  When the'yre all apart, I'm going to soak them in the Yamaha cleaner I got earlier.  I would like to re-use everything possible, but the gaskets.  And they're 022A's; thanks.

[Gordon]

The circled item is the float needle.  It sits inside the valve and regulates the fuel flow based on the position of the floats. 

Anything that's brass should be taken out and soaked, cleaned, blown out with compressed air, and inspected for persistent blockage.  One of the most important and often neglected parts is the emulsion tube that sits above the main jet inside the long tube in the center of the carb body.  If things are dirty, it will need some persuasion to come out.   

[Glenn Stauffer]

float valve

I'd skip the purple stuff.  Its corrosive to metals like aluminum - not sure what it would do to carb bodies.  The Yamaha cleaner can be used very effectively a number of ways including diluted with water and heated to a boil.

When you clean carbs, separate them from the rack and remove anything that isn't metal.

[TwoTired]

The float needle seat (brass) pulls out of the body.  Probably held in now with the old hard oring.
Same for the main jet at the top of the "tower".
The slow jet next to it unscrews, that's why there is a slot. lefty loosey

After the main jet is removed, you can see brass behind it.  That's the emulsion tube.  Probably glued in with crud.  It comes out the same hole the main jet was in.
I know two ways to remove it.  Press from the carb bore side with something that won't mash the brass. That's the needle jet end. The hole is calibrated for the needle that inserts into it from the slide.

The other way is the shoot compressed air into one of the "Air jets" at the carb intake mouth.  Catch the emulsion tube with a soft rag as it shoots out the hole teh main jet was in.  Much depends on how firmly they are glued in with crud.  Squirting carb cleaner into the hole should soften the "glue".  May have to soak it awhile.

You should also remove the pilot screws on the side of the carbs, too, and clean that passageway.

I disagree with Glenn about separating from the rack.  Unless you are determined to replace the orings on the interlinking tubes and fuel feed nipples.  I've not found that necessary...yet.

Cheers,

[Philly550K1]

i'll be getting to my O22A's one of these days, so i'm finding this thread helpful -- post as many pics as you want.  i don't mean to hijack, i'm hoping i'll get to contribute eventually...

given that my bike's been running pretty well overall the last few years, and has been used regularly, what am i likely to encounter?  is reusing everything a possibility, or everything but gaskets, like CS is doing?  i have just over 31K miles on it, i think.

it's always run well off idle, and thru the rev range, but it's never been perfect at idle or on cold starts after it's sat for a bit.  plug readings and pipe temperatures have always varied.  i've fiddled with air screws and slide sync settings and gotten some improvement in its idling and "tip-in" behavior over its life, but this winter it's getting cranky again, and i clearly haven't won the trial-and-error lottery.

i wouldn't be surprised if some slow jets, emulsion tubes, air screws, and/or float valves were obstructed.  one way to find out for sure, right? 

-jon

[cbjunkie]

guys,  ...this is why i love this place...this is the most naked carb newbie question i have ever witnessed...and yet, we embrace the brother.

i look forward to posting such open and flawless questions to my betters in the near future.

thank you all.

[TwoTired]

And once they're all apart, is there any way to tell what jets I have?

Once you have the jets removed, examine then closely with a magnifying glass.  There should be numbers on the sides of them.

The slow jets will be #40 or #38 if stock (year dependant).  The mains should be #100, if stock.
This is the size of the restriction orifice inside the jet body.  #100 is 1.00MM, #38 is 0.38 mm.
Cheers,

[csendker]

Ok, thanks so far - it's starting to make sense now that I'm not almost comatose from lack of sleep.  Out of the purple and into the Yammy they go.  These are an extra set I acquired, so I don't mind if I take all winter, I just want to learn & get a good clean set running (bike's been running great, but the mpg sucks). 

I asked what else comes out because nothing else is even remotly loose.  I suspect a set of hardened steel vice-grips with sharp serrated ends is probably not the smartest thing to use on these nice, soft brass seats & jets.  Beyond a good, long soak, any other tips to extract them?

And as requested, more pics:

#1589: Bowls off, on the right - spring clip off, on the left - spring clip still on.
#0034: All spring clips & floats off.
#0035: Float needle valve coming out.
#0038: A view of the other end.

[jdpas29]

it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to go ahead and replace the float needles.  a little ring aroung the tapered head on that thing and it can be leak city.

[MRieck]

I'd dump that whole rack in Yamaha cleaner for several days and than take the parts out and soak some more. I'd replace the float needle and seat being that the needle is not rubber tipped.

[csendker]

I'd dump that whole rack in Yamaha cleaner for several days

Straight-up or diluted (water? %?)?

[btripp]

  Hey csendker,

  Did you see the pics of the nasty cabrs on my 550F i'm rebuilding?  At least yours don't look like that!

  Take a look.  I bet it makes you feel better.

  -Ben

[csendker]

Did you see the pics of the nasty cabrs on my 550F i'm rebuilding?

Where are they?

And I'm finding the outside apperance doesn't relate much to the inside condition...

[btripp]

  They're in my post a little while back called "Nasty Carb Rebuild Pics".  It was on the 6th. 

  Very nasty.  Don't mean to hijack your post!  I just thought it might give you some inspiration!

  Your assertion that the outside doesn't relate to the inside I'm thinking is right on.

  -Ben

[csendker]

Holy crap!  Mine are pristine in comparison.  How did they come out?  And what did you use?

[Philly550K1]

yeah, those are an inspiration.  to procrastination!    to answer your original question in a different way, what can come out of the carbs?  apparently vomit, pus, phlegm, river mud, vegemite....

http://www.sohc4.us/forums/index.php?topic=5876.0

thanks for the pics, both of yizz.

-jon

[Glenn Stauffer]

Some recommendations:

From the VJMC site on how to use the Yamaha carb cleaner:

http://www.vjmc.org/techtips/carbclean.htm

From a comment posted to the SOHC4.net site:

"an alternate way is to soak the jets in some tinners acid (soldering acid) ruby fluid (a brand of zinc chloride flux) or the like, though the clear uncolored stuff works better. Pull the jets, and put them in small jars of the acid, it will make them look as good as new in a couple of hours, and no worries about snapping a wire in them. On seriously crudded up jets let them soak for a few days.  Once dismantled a set of carbs, put the jets to soak, sold the bike, and found the jets a year and a half later, still in good shape, and spotless, put them in my present bike and I'm still running them, so it doesn't seem that there is any bad effects on the jets."

[MRieck]

I use the Yamaha cleaner straight though diluted is OK. Personally I wouldn't bother heating the solution..I just let it soak for several days and agitate the carbs several times a day.

[csendker]

I like the long soak in straight fluid idea the best, as I have absolutely no time to play.  The VJMC method is actually posted in the FAQ's here (Carb FAQ, obviously), but it's too damn cold outside now to be cookin' carbs. 

I'll try to pull the seats & jets tonight, but I think they'll need a longer bath to soften everything up more.  Any hints on getting the manifolds off?  The rubbers seem to be hard as rocks - will they soften up over time in the bath?

So far, it looks like new gaskets, float needles & seats.  I'm assuming any o-rings found will be toast.

[Philly550K1]

  Any hints on getting the manifolds off?  The rubbers seem to be hard as rocks - will they soften up over time in the bath?

folks were just discussing hair dryer or a heat gun to soften them, as well as boiling them once they're off the bike.

[TwoTired]

Main jet removal for your carbs.
Usually, I just put the retainer spring back on the main jet and hook two fingers down near the jet, pull and rock 'til they wobble out.  But, use some judgment as to force applied to that brittle spring clip, or it will snap in two.  Springing is okay, bending to a crease is death.  If I can't get any movement with this method, I try a pair of soft jawed parrallel pliers.  If still no joy, than the serrated jaw pliers with some care not to the let the jaws slip or dig into the jet metal too badly.

Needle seat removal is similar in technique.  But, of course the retainer bit doesn't apply.

I like to reuse good parts.  The float needle and seat included.  But, not until a close examination, magnification prefered. The needle tip is a cone. If there are deep notches in the cone sides it may leak.  If the seat doesn't look perfectly round and smooth about its needle seating circumference, then replace that, too.  If they look to be in good condition, reuse them.  They aren't THAT hard to swap out of the 550 even with the carbs still on the bike.   When reusing parts like this, keep the needle and seat as a mated pair.

Unless you are using a solvent that dissolves or softens the oring material, continued soaking isn't going to help main jet and needle seat removal.  The orings are what's keeping those parts in the body of the carb.  Their job is to block liquids from getting past them.

Good luck,

[csendker]

Looking to see what to expect as I pull these things apart.  I'm assuming:

#1: Float needle valve & seat (press-in)
#2: Main jet (press-in)
#3: Needle jet?
#4: Slow jet (screw-in)
#5: ??
Spring: goes with what (#5?) & where?
Clip: I'm guessing this goes with the needle jet?
Float bowl gasket & carb top gasket are obvious. 

[TwoTired]

Technically speaking, # 3 is the needle.  The needle jet is part of the emulsion tube you haven't gotten to yet.
Spring goes with # 5 on side of carb.

The "E" Clip goes on the needle.

Was your kit designated for your model carbs or generic for all CB550s?

[csendker]

It's not my kit - I swiped the pic from CRC's website just to see what this stuff looks like before I tear them apart any further.  It's handy to know if something is long or short before I start wiggling it out.  I won't order anything until I get them torn down completely and know what I need.  And yes, it was the '73-'76 550K-specific picture.

[TwoTired]

If that kit depicts all of what you get, then DO NOT separate your carb bank.  You'll need more o rings for that task.

I asked about applicability, because the needle taper, Air bleed screw taper and design, and jet orifice sizes vary between CB550 models.  Some kit mfgrs don't recognize these differences.

[btripp]

csendker,

  It is, shall we say, a work still in progress......


  -Ben

[csendker]

Update:

The main jets, slow jets, air screws & springs have all come out - thanks TT for the tips.  The main jets are stamped "K-100", I forgot to look at the slow jet #.  The manifolds are off. All is taking a good bath.

The float valve seats are in there real tight; I stopped in fear of trashing them while pulling. The needles & anything from the top side are also still in there. We'll see if a good soak doesn't loosen things up some more.

Back to my original question: I know the float valve seats still have to come out, and know what to do.  The needles come out too, but isn't the clip holding it in?  And don't you get to that from the top?  What about the throttle slide valve stuff?  What else should I pull out for a full tear-down?

I noticed the rebuild kits are for the individual carbs only, and I haven't found any gaskets or o-rings or whatever for racking them together yet.  Admittedly, I haven't looked real hard either, so for now, they stay as a rack.

I also found the "Honda Motorcycle Carburetion" manual in the Carb FAQ's.  Lots 'o good reading there.

[ElCheapo]

float valve

I'd skip the purple stuff.  Its corrosive to metals like aluminum - not sure what it would do to carb bodies.  The Yamaha cleaner can be used very effectively a number of ways including diluted with water and heated to a boil.

When you clean carbs, separate them from the rack and remove anything that isn't metal.

I use the purple stuff all the time. Not rough on carb bodies unless you dunk'em and die somewhere. Whats more they don't piss off the wife when you clean them in the nice warm house because it does not stink. 

[csendker]

Update:

All off: float bowls, floats & pins, float valve needles & seats, main jets, slow jets, air adjustment screws & springs, top covers.  Only 3 of 4 float bowl drain plugs came out so far.

Everything has been soaking for a while; pieces in straight Y-carb cleaner (rotate one carb guts at a time for two days each) and body in diluted (50-50 water, the store only had a couple of bottles) Y-carb cleaner for many days.  I scrub everything occassionally with an old toothbrush.  I must say, it's not as squeaky-clean as I expected.

Back to the original question: what else can come off these things?  The slide throttles still look grungy (see pics), and I've yet to locate the needles.  Does this stuff come out the top?

[csendker]

And...what else can be used to clean the bodies.  I read that steel wool isn't good on aluminum, but the toothbrush isn't stiff enough to get whatever crud is coating the bodies.

[Gordon]

The slides along with the needles all come out the top of the carbs.  That discoloration on the carb bodies is aluminum oxidation.  The only way I know of to remove it completely is either dipping in very strong parts cleaner, which will dissolve any rubber parts, or buffing/polishing.  Both of which would require separating the carbs.  I guess the question is just how badly do you want them to look nice?  The float bowls can be cleaned and polished easily, which will go a long way to making the entire rack look better overall. 

[csendker]

There's two nuts on top of each carb, both held in place with bent metal tabs to keep them from shaking loose.  I assume these get removed and everything gets yanked (carefully) from above?  Should I be wary of anything else popping out? Springs? Little itty-bitty pieces-parts?

And I would be happy with all of the bowls and the two outboard sides looking good.  If someone wants to stick there head under the hood for a closer examination, go right ahead.

Most of the screws are crappy.  Any recommendations for replacement hardware that won't twist-out?  Hex? Stainless?

[Gordon]

You only need to remove one of the two bolts on each of the throttle arms, the one that attaches the arm to the throttle slide.  Once you've done that, rotate the arms all the way up and you can pop the ball joint out of the slide shaft.  And, yes, there are small parts that may pop out with it.  A small cylindrical piece of metal, and a spring that both live inside the throttle slide shaft.  Make sure to take note of how they fit in there so you can put them back the same way.  Do one carb at a time so you have a frame of reference if you forget. 

Down inside the slides are two tiny screws that hold the shaft and needles in place.  They are not easy to get to, but a very small phillips screwdriver is what you need.  But if you think that's hard, wait until you have to put them back in!  If you don't need to adjust the needle clip position, this step really isn't necessary.  Just soak the whole assembly as is. 

[CB750R]

I've replaced much of the tiny crappy phillips screws on my carbs with stainless allen head screws. they look great but be warned the torque you can generate on a stainless allen head bolt will strip your aluminum carbs to shreads if your not carefull!!  The previous knumbskull who owned my bike had pre-stripped about 1/3 of the holes with just the phillips screws!!

[csendker]

Thanks.  Any tricks to bending the tabs out of the way?  I tried a small screwdriver and a pair of neelde-nose, but it's not coming easy and I don't want to mash anything.  I suspect it's just a matter of effort, but if there's a trick...

[CB750R]

I Have 77F  carbs without the tabs so I can't help ya there. 

[TwoTired]

Thanks.  Any tricks to bending the tabs out of the way?  I tried a small screwdriver and a pair of neelde-nose, but it's not coming easy and I don't want to mash anything.  I suspect it's just a matter of effort, but if there's a trick...

The only trick with the tabs is to not over bend them.  I use a medium screwdriver and the heel of my hand and only bend them enough to get the six point socket on them.  The tabs will break off with repeated bending.  And, the more extreme the bends are, the faster a crack will develop.
Cheers,

[csendker]

Well, I successfully got the first nut off (slide shaft).  Unfortunately, I found out it's not a nut, but a cap.  And whatever it was that was inside it is now somewhere in the depths of the carb.  I think it was the small cylindrical 'thing' and spring that gordon noted.  I can see something like it, but it doesn't want to come out.  Thought this stuff was inside the slide, not under the cap (because I thought it was a nut, not a cap; bummer). I tried to pull the whole slide out, but I can't get the ball all the way out of the socket.  I'm not sure if it's being impeded by the 'stuff' inside or what.  Should the ball pop out easily or does it take some force?  Should I take off the upper bolt off to disengage the ball or does it stay in place? Hmmmm.