Topic: Irregular pavement and wiping out... my fears

[GroovieGhoulie]

OK, I'm probably going to get flamed, being a newbie, over this, but I have some questions:

How well do bikes and these Hondas in particular, take to poor roads?  I'm currently stuck in Louisiana and we have some of the worst roads in the nation.  I'm only really comfortable on billiard-table-smooth bitumen and feel that if I encounter any sort of road irregularity in any attitude other than perfectly upright, the bike is going to come right out from under me..

Pavement cracks
Potholes
Sand/dirt
Bumps
Dips

Fine in a straight line, but in a turn all are cause for fear, especially sand (even going striaght sand freaks me out) as someone said that if I ride over sand in mid-corner and the bike is in a lean, the tires slip out and it'll lowside in a flash.  Is that true?  This fear means that I've been taking nearly every corner (to borrow a phrase) like old people screw, which is to say, slow and cautious.  Not every time, but enough so that I feel embarrassed about it.

You would have no idea the amount of sand/dirt on the roads around here and the generally poor condition.  I should carry my camera with me next time and take some snaps.

The bikes can't have THAT bad of roadholding can they?  Only a fine hair between successful cornering and ZANG! going over the side? 

I think the biggest part of it is still my being so new to riding, but could part of it be that the skinny tires and quirky suspensions on these old bikes take a certain amount of special skills to get the most out of and there's MUCH less of a margin for error than newer bikes?  I see guys on new bikes tear around recklessly and it seems that they can rely on the fat rubber and computer-designed suspensions to keep them out of trouble and save them if they do get into trouble, but on these Hondas, you have to rely on your skills to keep out of trouble or save yourself; the bike won't suffer fools gladly.

OK, there it is; my big concern and I ask for guidance from the motorcycling gurus.  Please be gentle. [flamesuit=on] 

[skamania19]

I would say first, make sure your tires are good, properly inflated, and your suspension is set right. Then practice. Nothing wrong with taking it easy. As your confidence builds, your speed will pick up. Sand can be tricky sometimes, but it depends on whether it's wet or dry and how deep it is, and how sharp you have to turn. Just take it easy and don't let what other people think get in your way. And watch way ahead of you. I scan the road from right in front of my wheel to a half mile or more all the time so I'm not surprised by something suddenly appearing under my wheels and if needed I can scoot around it. Wear good gear and helmet in case something does happen.

[cbjunkie]

La might be the ONLY state in the Union to have worse roads than Ark.. .I know, i've been on them all...

don't pull any fast tricks on a road you haven't ridden a bunch...and even if you have, ride it once again first. familiarity can help you a lot...but it can hurt too, of course. i'm sure there are plenty of "Been There Done That" stories of the familiar road and the broken head...

these old honda's are not racing bikes. they are not "high-performance" by today's standards - treat'em with respect. (is your bike older than you? ... mine almost is!)

cbj...

[GroovieGhoulie]

La might be the ONLY state in the Union to have worse roads than Ark.. .I know, i've been on them all...

don't pull any fast tricks on a road you haven't ridden a bunch...and even if you have, ride it once again first. familiarity can help you a lot...but it can hurt too, of course. i'm sure there are plenty of "Been There Done That" stories of the familiar road and the broken head...

these old honda's are not racing bikes. they are not "high-performance" by today's standards - treat'em with respect. (is your bike older than you? ... mine almost is!)

cbj...

Four years older. (The Honda's a '76, I'm an '80) 

I know they're not racing bikes.  They weren't in their day and they aren't now.  But it still gives me a rush to corner with a decent lean, even if it's not going real fast and someday I WOULD like to touch the balls on the pegs, but it seems like the roads around here would send me right off should I try it.

When I cross the border into Texas heading home, the difference is night and day in road quality.  I can't wait to get back to Texas.

As far as the amount of sand on the road, imagine an asphalt road that is nice and clear, so you dive into a corner, then there is a nice dusting right at the apex mid-corner.  Not enough for a car to notice, but enough to make the bike think it's on ice.  Because if this, I tend to corner like a #$%*.

[skamania19]

Who cares? Riding beyond your ability or expertise is a recipe for disaster.

[Gordon]

Taking an approved motorcycle safety course can go a long way to helping build your confidence on any bike. 

The worst problem I encounter on a regular basis is painted crosswalks on a wet road.   Those thick white lines are very slippery when going across them at an angle in the middle of a left turn at an intersection.   

[Jim Shea]

No shame in riding within your limits. What do you want to get out of riding, personally it is not the speed that does it for me!
Do get some training, it will make you feel much more confident. Be warned though, that is when you are most vulnerable! Always, look well ahead as was said in an earlier reply. It is more likely someone will pull out in front of you than you coming off due to a 'slippery' bit of road!

[BobbyR]

Here in NY they use a lot of sand in the winter. In the spring you will find the sand in Triangles on corners. You have to look out and keep your speed reasonable. I put some Batttleaxes on my 78 750 and they are amazing. I have found a mild slip of a few inches on some sand does not really cause much drama. The bike will bite and you will go on your way with elavated heartrate and bloodpressure. Everyone responding to your post is correct. You also have to practice. When I took the advance riders course they make you really lean over in tighter turns. They do this so you know that the bike will hold. Studies have found that MC riders are relying on thier brakes far too much and not steering around cars, busses, etc. They are running flat into things when they may have just steered around them. Stay out of potholes, they mess up your fork seals.

[ProTeal55]

Here in good old Chicago they dump about a  20 pounds of salt for every 1/2 inch of snow, thus making the roads
horribile for riding ANY type of motorcycle. My last bike, which was a hardtail , was a very intresting ride, especially
on those tollway "ramps" I like to call them, which conect the tollway to a bridge, and then back again.

I haven't been riding for all that long , but all I can say is go at your own pace. Riding "beyond your limits" is just going to
get you hurt, or even worse. In my opinion, the only person you should have to impress is yourself. Thats why I laugh when I
see those sportbike "stunter" guys breaking their bones & bikes to impress others..I ride because I want to, and I enjoy it....

Enjoy the ride, take it easy , and you will be fine....

[8 Track]

As I read this post, all I could say was yes, yes, yes to everybody.  So instead of quoting everybody, here it is: "I know what you're saying".  With that being said,...

My advise is this: ride a dirt bike and find its limits.  In dirt, you know you're going down and the ground only hurts about 2% less (my broken ribs, rang bell, disoriented organs, twisted ankles and concussion agree!).  Point is, you know what you're getting in to and it's a controlled environment.
     You see those guys zipping around one day, but you don't always see them again.  Fact is, most newbies on a crotch rocket has a life expenctacy of two weeks.  Don't ride like an ass.
     Assume there is slippery stuff in the corner up ahead.  There is no shame in being an uninjured whimp!
     Don't outrun your vision.  Know your limits and stay behind them.  When going into a corner, you never use your brakes.  Fact is, you should acellerate out of it.  If you have to, remember you have two of them.  If it slips, stay cool- it might just grab.  These bikes ride like a truck compared to new bikes.  When I see a bump across the road, I bounce once on the seat- that's my wife's cue to get her butt one inch off the seat with mine.  You may approach it differently.  The frame is loose (compared to today's bikes), brakes suck and it generally handles like a standard bike should: more aggressive than a cruiser, not as good as a racer.
     If you go into a rear brake slide, try try try to let off the brake slowly (almost impossible).  If not, when you let off and the tire grabs, it might toss you off the other side, and I mean right now!

I could go on and on, but I'll stop now.  If it's on the road, assume it's slippery.  If it looks scary, back off.  If you wreck, you can't go to work and I'm not filling in for you!  Take a riding course.  You may only learn one new thing and that may be the one that saves you.

Thanks for reading and have a great ride.

[GroovieGhoulie]

I've already done an MSF course and it helped tremendously.

Thanks for all the advice. I guess my biggest fear was sand and dirt mid-corner.  I already do a lot of what's been said: rise up for bumps, brake straight, accel out of corners, etc.

Just gotta get more familiar I guess!

[ofreen]

OK, I'm probably going to get flamed, being a newbie, over this, but I have some questions:

Your post and questions display a lot of good sense.  Many would be too worried about what other people think, so wouldn't ask.  Don't worry about being flamed.  It would say more about the flamer than you.

There is good advice in the preceeding posts.  I would add that you make sure you have recent tires on your bike.  I see a lot of old bikes with old tires.  Tires lose their capacity for traction as they age.  As someone else mentioned, be sure they are inflated to the correct pressure.  Check pressure frequently.

Another thing you will hear a lot is that riding dirt bikes is good practice for the street.  I believe this is true.  Too many people react inappropriately when they lose traction on the street and they crash.  They freeze up or hit the brakes or whatever.  Riding dirt bikes is all about sliding around.  Once you are used to sliding, it is no big deal, and you will react appropriately.  You will be relaxed about it.   You will even begin to think it is fun. Many times the appropriate reaction is no reaction at all, just ride it out.  That kind of judgement becomes easier if you are relaxed and used to the sensation of loss of traction.  Dirt riding will give you the experience and skills to deal with loss of traction.  Give it a try if you get the opportunity.

Greg
'75 CB750F

[clarkjh]

I'll pipe up and add something else.

If your riding with a group, don't depend on the riders infront to be your eyes, keep looking for the problems before their problems.  Ride your ride and don't let them push you past your limits. 

Enjoy your rides.

James

[Uncle Ernie]

I have a VERY fast friend who once told me, "Speed makes traction"  I want to make tht into a T-shirt.  He said that because I asked him how he goes so fast on the roads around here- Asheville NC, in the mountains. I suspect our roads may be similar.  Many of hte raods here have a sand left that is like baby powder. You WILL go down if you hit it. No question. I have seen people do it.
First, don't try to keep up with anyone. Ever.  Second, sounds like youwant to have fun pushing in the corners. I know how you feel, but you must learn to walk before you can run.  I recommend a book by David Hough. He explains a lot of things in fairly easy terms (I couldn't make it through Twist Of The Wrist).  Good tires. You probably need to upgrade your suspension.  Practice on roads you get to know. Even then there will be problems. Here, you can go around a turn and suddenly there's a dog asleep in the middle of the road. Or wild turkeys who just stare at you. A rain will put gravel in the road at the base of a driveway that wasn't there 2 days ago.  Well, I'm sure you know what I mean...
One thing you mentioned is cracks. They can be like railroad tracks; slow down and cross as much at a right angle as possible. If your tire gets stuck you will go down.     The other thing is wearing decent gear like gloves and stuff.  If you're afraid of low-siding, try some knee protection, too.
The kind of stuff you ride in, you're right to be scared.  If it makes you feel better, I've been riding since before you were born, and I'm still scared, too. 
Hasn't stopped me yet, though~   

[jotor]

I'll pipe up and add something else.

If your riding with a group, don't depend on the riders infront to be your eyes, keep looking for the problems before their problems.  Ride your ride and don't let them push you past your limits. 

Enjoy your rides.

James

However--following and keeping up with a good rider you trust can be a great learning experience.

And--the best way to improve your riding ability is to.....................................ride.

[ElCheapo]

Loose gravel in the corners as well as slippery wet leaves  . Now that stuff really unnerves me. Irregular pavement and wiping out is a resonable fear I think.

[eldar]

I have never found dirt(unless it is alot)to be a problem. Sand though can be very nasty since it has a tendancy to roll. Gravel is horrendous! No such thing as traction in gravel really. You just hang on and try to stay up.

I have done the dirt bike thing and while it was a small bike, when i got my 750, I hopped right on and off I went but I dont push my boundaries too fast and I think that is the biggest thing to remember.

Everyone here makes very good points.

[8 Track]

Hey Uncle Ernie from Ashville NC, I'm suprised you left out fog!  I've done some jobs down in Arden and it's foggy almost every morning.  Then you have to be familiar with the road and "remember" where it was.

[SCJIM]

dont feel so bad,
you guys have functioning bikes
im still trying to repair mine from when i top ended back a couple months ago.

diddnt see it comming,
diddnt know it was comming.
on a freakin great day,
clear road,

SLIP BANG!

oh I'm going to be a total safty freak when i get back out on the road.

i just got the last of the parts i need to put my "other bride" back together.

BIG THANKS TO A GREAT GUY IN COLORADO

[Philly550K1]

"speed makes traction".  would this shirt feature someone in a full-body cast?  

i've been attending services at the Church of Motorcycle Physics.  my faith in Gyroscopic Stability removes my fear of bumps and cracks.  Camber Thrust emboldens me to ground a peg now and again.  this is all assuming a clean road surface.

most of the force on the contact patches, even in a turn, is still straight-down-to-earth gravitational force, correct?  (this is these bikes, typical modern tires, street riding, not skid pad testing sportbikes on racing slicks.)

the concept i don't have too much of a gut feel for on a bike is Slip Angle.  leaning per se isn't putting you at risk if there's enough traction to counter the turning forces "requested".  and if those limits are exceeded (in a certain fashion), it's not instant ER, either -- witness countless roadracing highlight clips, dirt trackers, ice racers...

in a car, i find there's plenty of feedback near the limits before the front or rear contradicts the steering wheel.  i of course learned these limits by exceeding them.  intentionally, of course.    not as inviting a concept on a bike, hence the present thread.

so i still don't take blind corners in fog and drizzle at night at full lean with my tires on the stripe.  but if i survive a few spills, i may have some info to go on the next time.

so jim, you're saying you slipped on an unseen traction-stealing hazard?  do you know what it was?

[SCJIM]

less elequently put....


My new tire slipped out from behind me.
on a bend in the road that sharpens at the last second.
I was not slowing in the turn when it came up on me.
I must have reacted by breaking too hard too quickly.
the skid was sudden, and then when my tire met the edge of the road
i was flung over the top.

I've tryed to deconstruct the events of my crash over and over and i can only look at those facts. 

I place the blame on myself.

[ElCheapo]

When I had new tires put on this last summer, the guy recommended that I do "scrub" manuvers in a parking lot and be extra careful the first 100 miles.

[ElCheapo]

There must be some truth to it. I managed to get about 50 miles off before I blew the mill in the late fall. Wishing I had already swaped it because today in Wisconsin would make real damn nice riding weather. Call it a weather fluke. DAMN DAMN DAMN!

[Uncle Ernie]

Righty-o. Take it easy the first 50 miles on new tires.  Also, it pays to slow down "too much" if you can't see through the turn. That's one reason some people find they can ride faster in the winter months- no leaves so they can see through the trees.  Another tip is to pick your line better.  If you stay on the outside of the turn untill the apex and THEN turn in (instead of following the curve all the way through), you can see farther through the turn (being on the outside farther), AND you're set up for a straighter line through the rest of the turn.  You can do this easier if you take the time to analyze a couple of your favorite turns and sweepers.  Think about what's happening; did you subtly have to "turn" or move the bars more than once in the turn? In other words, are you correcting your mistaken Line/ set-up?  Or did you only have to move the bars once?  Of course, there are mitigating factors like correcting for a squirrel or patch of sand you didn't see, but if you stayed outside longer, might you have seen it?  Sometimes I'll go back and forth on the same length of road just to see if I can do it differently and see how it feels.    Another thing, especially for newer riders- move your body and head around.  Throw your shoulder into a turn and see how that feels.  I used to be afraid of low-siding so I would "push" the bike down into a turn. Found out that was exactly the wrong thing to do; throwing your shoulder into a turn while keeping your eyes parallel to the road helps keep the bike up a bit while keeping more of the contact patch on the road.         IMO, have to disagree with whoever said the gravity is still pulling down. If that were so, ther wouldn't be anything like a low-side/slide.  I want to call it centrifigal force, but technically it has another name.  You REALLY notice it, though, if you ever drive a sidecar.  Lastly, think about this stuff a lot and anticipate.  Many riders get in trouble because they freak out and stiff-arm instead of reacting.
Sorry I get into stream of conciousness instead of using paragraphs...

[Philly550K1]

IMO, have to disagree with whoever said the gravity is still pulling down. If that were so, ther wouldn't be anything like a low-side/slide.  I want to call it centrifigal force, but technically it has another name.  You REALLY notice it, though, if you ever drive a sidecar.

i wasn't denying the existence of centrifugal force, lateral g's, or whatever one chooses to call the invisible hand that flings you and your sled into the trees (some flavor of momentum, i think.  i'm just a parishioner, not a priest.    )  [you'd have to be going mighty fast to hit those trees before your butt hits the ground -- that's your gravity, there.]  anyway, i was trying to reassure a cautious new rider, presumably riding nowhere near the limit, that a get-off isn't the inevitable result of a reduction or even loss of grip.

perhaps walking on ice is a useful analogy.  you certainly can slip on ice and land on your can, but you can also slip quite a bit without falling.  if you practice, you can don some tights (or pads) and make a living sliding around on the stuff in a mostly-vertical attitude.  lucky for us, there's usually a lot more grip available between tire and road.

somebody better-versed will set us straight.

ernie, i do agree with the "outside, late turn-in" method.  the only thing you give up is run-wide room, but again, by then, you've chosen a straighter line, so drifting onto a gravelly shoulder is less of a hershey squirt!

i think i'll go put my shiny new rear on....