Author Topic: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.  (Read 627247 times)

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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1575 on: August 27, 2011, 06:35:39 PM »
     Umm, Bill, the quarter jr. estimate was for the last rear sprocket, not the current 52(?) tooth one. More teeth will result in a lower 60' time with that software. It isn't perfect, but it does quite good estimations with the information it gets!
     Appreciate the adjustment to valve lash. Improving the bottom end has helped the 60' times! If you want to find .014 (or more) just advance the existing cam a little.
     Your second round -  was it later in the day with better air? I'm trying to understand why it went so much  quicker than the previous passes. Improved weather conditions could help explain that.
     Yes, the bike is responding to your adjustments. Congratulations on winning a round. Yes, this is supposed to be fun.

     Dragracer - I'm here trying to help cut down the learning curve. Sam is coming over in November to drive that bike. Small tweaks to reduce the existing combination variations does help. There are limited opportunities for Bill to test between now and Valdosta. Is the tuning time better spent cutting the variations from .3 seconds to .25 seconds (quarter mile et's) with maximizing the existing combination or replacing the cam now and testing for a reduction from .3 second variations to around .1 second variations? There won't be enough time to properly do both. Does Sam want a .25 variation bike to race in November or a .1 second variation bike to race? If we test and tune to get a .25 variation with the current motor setup, what's the next step? Do we toss in the cam with little testing time before the big meet? The big picture for Sam is to have the most consistent bike possible. If we had the time, doing the exercise to refine what we have would be fine. I don't know why we would want to do that, but we could. The cam swap will improve the bottom end - improved bottom end will help to reduce variations- reduced variations make racing that bike more fun! Even after the cam swap there will be more small adjustments that can be done to improve the bike. The cam is a major change that needs seat time and data recorded to get comfortable with it. This is part time racing. I'm just trying to help reduce the learning curve. I'll buy the Cokes and listen to why we should have refined what we have at the expense of significantly reducing the variations. (if I'm there, still uncertain) Sam is spending a thousand pounds to compete. Check the exchange rate. If I were spending that kind of money, I would want the variations reduced as much as possible. In either case, it'll be OK. I'm supposed to be a help, not a hindrance to having fun. Having a consistent Hondamatic for Sam might even put a smile on my face....(for a moment at least)
      Sam posted his opinion on this while I was typing my usual novel. Sorry for the length.


                                                                       Jon Weeks

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1576 on: August 27, 2011, 06:49:02 PM »
Gotta love the way we all communicate :D. Well, it looks like the BOSS has spoken. Now where is that damn cam?????????

Bill plans to come test at Orangburg Dragstrip next weekend with us. Jim will be out of town. To show my dedication to the team effort, i'll commit to pay Bill's entry fee into the race- gas money is on him. Not certain where the new cam is now but if he can put it in the bike this upcoming week, there will be lots of time to make passes. Anyone know the recommended lobe centers on this cam??

Bill, if you think we can change this cam out and degree it trackside, i'll be more than happy to help.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 07:04:12 PM by dragracer »

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1577 on: August 27, 2011, 06:54:45 PM »
Sam, It's your call.Thanks for what I wish I knew now what I didn't know then.Forget the time and money on my end,but the negativity shown was a kick in the face to your #1 sponser...he'll be upset at me,but without that last post who was to know your situation.We all want to do well in front of friends,fans and family. Jim French and I didn't understand.NOW I do,Jim can speak for himself.
Cam will be posted when I pull it tomorrow if not TONIGHT! Times a wasting.Jon,one question,what specs you want cam at ?
Once again,better communication would help. If we could put in @ 2 more compession points would also be nice.F all the PAST. you will have a dream bike ready.Jon,get your butt to Valdosta.
I got a 75 bump stick to put bumps on your and Sam's head!LOL,Bill
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1578 on: August 27, 2011, 07:49:39 PM »
WTF?? Sounds to me like Bill, Jim, and Frank had a successful test and tune. What's all the fuss about? Since the major goal here is consistency, don't touch a thing. Take the bike, as is, to the track next week and run it. JMHO... ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1579 on: August 27, 2011, 08:01:12 PM »
Too late.Cover almost off,still tight clearing rockers.Next time it runs,it will be w/295 cam,thanks to Jon.Bill
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1580 on: August 27, 2011, 08:07:33 PM »
OK, but I wouldn't mess with the carbs or ignition. One change at a time...
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1581 on: August 27, 2011, 09:29:45 PM »
Bill,
     I'm saying what I've posted before. You have the cam card that came with it. I suggested another 5 degrees rotational cam advance to further pull the powerband down. More power down low will reduce the overall elapsed time and reduce the variations in the 60' times. That's not an exact solution; just a step in the right direction. You may/will lose a little top end mph, but the overall reduction in 60' times should make the bike et quicker. The quicker 60' times should help reduce the variations in overall et. What amount of advance to the cam does the bike want for lowest et? I don't have that answer. It takes time on the dyno and/or making passes to determine exactly what the motor likes best. You will definitely be making more horsepower and torque at the critical 2,800 to 3,500 rpm range with the cam advanced from the stock card settings vs what is in Sam's bike now. It should pull a higher launch rpm when loaded against the converter vs what you have now. That's what I was referring to about further tweaking will benefit the bike.  I'd be looking for 1.9 second 60' times with the new cam. (consistently)
     The carbs may not yet be perfect; the cam going in probably won't be installed with perfect settings; the ignition/advance curve may not be perfect. Getting the powerband at launch to be stronger than a stocker cam version is what we need as a starting point. There will still be refining needed. We just need a better starting point with the powerband. The 295 cam has run 10.6's 20 plus years ago on a bigger cc Hondamatic. We have a lurking member with a bigger cc Hondamatic motor running the 75 cam, having the same challenges that Sam's bike has. (poor bottom end)
      I've been trying to help. I'm sorry if anyone thinks that I've been critical of what you and Jim have done. That's never been my intention! You both have worked hard to solve the challenges the bike has thrown at you.
     The 75 cam has value to someone as a used cam. It's just not the best drag racing cam for a Hondamatic drag bike. That's what the classified ads are for. Sam may know someone who can use the powerband that the 75 cam produces in a clutch bike.
     If I'm not crazy and the bike picks up some bottom end power, you may find another challenge with holding the bike on the starting line. A caliper swap might be  required to hold the power improvement. I don't think that it will happen, but don't be surprised if the bike wants to creep at the starting line.
     Remember the picture of Dale Walker on the 80's Hondamatic drag bike that I posted many pages ago? It was the early 80's that he rode it; not implying that the bike was that new. He ran 12's with his bike; won a lot of races with it. The picture shows the bike with the front wheel about a foot above the ground. When the powerband is right the front end will try to power wheelie as it comes up into it's powerband. That's the other sign that we're getting close to what the bike likes. I never tried to run a small cc Hondamatic motor as a serious bracket bike. I started at 1080 and went up from there. My bike did wheelies about 100' down the track from the second time out until the present day. I don't know if Sam's motor will make enough horses for that to be a problem. Since Walker ran close to the same ET's that we're trying to do, I wouldn't be surprised if the front wheel felt light for a second going down the track.
     If this information isn't what you want, please call me. I'll try to get you answers that you need to help the bike. We all want to have fun running the Hondamatic. Getting a powerband that better reflects what the bike needs is a big step in the right direction! If you feel that the cam swap was a step in the right direction, I'll try to come down to Valdosta. If not, I'll stay quietly in the north.
                                                                   Jon Weeks
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1582 on: August 27, 2011, 09:33:48 PM »
Jon,I'll go back and read,appreciate the input.Cam is OUT!!!!! Bill
Engine compression fine,2-205 except #1,down about 5 psi to others.
Cam goes in this week.Dyno this weekend or Orangeburg.
You coming to Valdosta.....someones gotta figure dial in.!
I gotta clean up,can't post pics cause of laptop situation.
Sam,get ready,I may ride on Friday,but Sat and Sunday yours. Bill
« Last Edit: August 27, 2011, 09:45:32 PM by bellcow54 »
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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« Reply #1583 on: August 27, 2011, 09:48:40 PM »
LOL,Mike,it looks fine.Who's good looking adjustable cam sprocket? Bill
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1584 on: August 27, 2011, 09:56:46 PM »
Yeh,it's got a funny looking head also.Real small valve stems,nice cam chain also.Bill
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1585 on: August 27, 2011, 10:19:18 PM »
Well,I could slip my Stage III in.LOL,Bill
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1586 on: August 28, 2011, 01:06:18 AM »
WOW,  :o :o :o :o a lot has been said while a was sleeping and I don't have time to reply just now. I'll post tonight, mid day your time and untill then. ::)
C95 sprint bike.
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JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1587 on: August 28, 2011, 01:58:20 PM »
Thanks for unlocking the thread Sam. Time to keep moving forward guys. I commend you gentlemen who've put their hands on the project. Cudos on the recent progress and will stay tuned for more to come.

I was looking forward to seeing Samauto make some passes at our local track this weekend but the dyno awaits.

Jim/Bill, i'm not sure how good the barbequed hog will taste come November but we will set yours aside in the freezer and microwave it for you at Rockingham. 

Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1588 on: August 28, 2011, 02:17:06 PM »
A hot dog is good anytime of the year with any of you guys and gals
it doesn't matter where............

Keep smiling as I am all the time

Jim
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Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1589 on: August 28, 2011, 07:58:54 PM »
oh yeah and Frank don't worry I deleted that video ...................
as painful as it was to delete, I did so your integrity is still in tack

Jim
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1590 on: August 28, 2011, 08:11:12 PM »
Jon,I'll go back and read,appreciate the input.Cam is OUT!!!!! Bill
Engine compression fine,2-205 except #1,down about 5 psi to others.
Cam goes in this week.Dyno this weekend or Orangeburg.
You coming to Valdosta.....someones gotta figure dial in.!
I gotta clean up,can't post pics cause of laptop situation.
Sam,get ready,I may ride on Friday,but Sat and Sunday yours. Bill
The lean one with the drill bit in the air hole? Correct?
« Last Edit: August 28, 2011, 08:29:46 PM by MRieck »
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1591 on: August 28, 2011, 08:37:57 PM »
Frank, no one is offended but here is the take from the UK.
I appreciate all the hard work done by the team but it's clear to see that the cam is the bigest problem and it only takes a few hours to change it, it's a drop in job on the stock settings. Minor adjustments to carburation and ignition only make the bike quicker, they might make it fractionaly more consistent but no where where it needs to be to be of any use. We were at Valdosta when Chad Isley went out due to dropping 2 10ths, he was dumb struck as to why it had happened, Hondamatics just don't do that, ask Jon. (or Chad if you can find him) Developing a bike might take time and money but a Hondamatic should run consistent times irelavant of/to the state of tune that it's in. If it's a bit off it will run consistent slow numbers, if in tune, quicker ones, but still be more consistent than our bike is now. We have 8 weeks to get it right before I have to perform in front of a European Top Fuel Champion, a former British TF champion, a British Funny Bike Champion and a British  ProStreet Champion, all of who know me, what a let down if I go out in the first round because the bike will not repete.
Billy, if you have the TIME, I have the MONEY. Change the cam and get the bike to Commerce and get some data to work off. $20 to test and tune and ? $30 gas to get you there and back, I'll send it to you each week, just do it.
I don't have a lot of time left (getting tired of working 50 hours a week to fulfill a dream) and when the work stops, the money runs out and I stop everything.
Love you all but this is where the buck stops.

Sam. :-\
Sam,I could and might still type about 2000 words to this post,but right now the only thing I got to say is 2 words...Don't REDLIGHT .....make sure not to embarrass anyone!As far as the buck,it's stopped here and Jim's since Samauto rolled into my trailer last November.Commerce an hour and 15 minutes one way.Read post 1718 again,maybe twice.It's deleted ,but have copy if you need it.Saturday was sunny and wonderful until you and Jon rained on the parade.Love you too,but you and Jon offended me,Jim,Mike and Frank.Scottly said it well ,WTF? Bike will be ready for Valdosta,make sure you are! You're welcome,Bill
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1592 on: August 28, 2011, 08:41:10 PM »
oh yeah and Frank don't worry I deleted that video ...................
as painful as it was to delete, I did so your integrity is still in tack

Jim

Yeah, it might be gone electronically but the spectators that watched won't let me live it down. Humble pie is a hard thing to swallow.

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1593 on: August 28, 2011, 08:45:32 PM »
Oh damn, here we go again - i feel the gates squeezing closed.  Lets be nice boys. Still time to get it sorted out.

Friends now and forever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1594 on: August 28, 2011, 09:04:41 PM »
+1. Just needed to get it off my chest,like I made sure that CAM was out less than 24 hrs after wonderful Friday Red Cross event! I'm going forward.Stay tuned for next year!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) ;D Bill
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1595 on: August 28, 2011, 10:31:45 PM »
Marching on.............
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1596 on: August 29, 2011, 07:09:04 AM »
Yes,we are! Of course it was #1.You heat an exhaust pipe(chrome one) so red hot in @ 10-30 seconds that's all you see,intense red heat some damage occurred.one run on dyno showed it.The end of that test session!Let's go forward.Cam goes in tonight or tomorrow. ;D 8)
Pray it does what it's supposed to.When I load that rear brake I expect to see a tach needle...starts @ 3000rpm.Stock stall speed was 3000.Keep your fingers crossed.Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1597 on: August 29, 2011, 09:25:07 AM »
Hey Bill, are your eyes still watering from the nitro?? I see you left that part of the friday night adventures out of your earlier post- lol.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1598 on: August 29, 2011, 10:18:17 AM »
Frank,wasn't feeling very humorous.Will post later.Bill
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Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #1599 on: August 29, 2011, 11:08:49 AM »
Thats the main reason that Bill had asked me to weld a kick stand on, so the next time he pulls in
behind the nitro bikes he can run for the hills and leave the bike. I wasn't even behind them and I was crying like a baby
watching those bikes shake the leaves off the trees

He sure was mad but in a funny way when I got back looking for him.

Sorry again  Bill and I will buy you a hot dog.

Jim
2002 RC51 1000 (SP2)
1983 GS1100EC Suzuki
2002 998 Dukati (Customers Bike)
1992 KTM500 2 stroke
1975 CB750/836 Honda
1978 GS750/840 Suzuki