Author Topic: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.  (Read 619034 times)

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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2925 on: October 03, 2012, 05:30:47 PM »
Yes,been thinking :o,don't think what we are proposing is going to work OK, HOLD! If the linelock just holds pressure,hand or foot,obviously much more avalalble with foot.If as we proposed air cylinder pushes M/C piston
then we need quite a bit of pressure to hold.140psi I don't think is enough,maybe foot pressure,then linelock that pressure might be best set up? What do Y'ALL think? Any and all ideas welcome.Pops no,we ain't going 10.99 with Samauto,maybe with Calendar Girl with the 915 and Mike's head! ;D Thanks,Bill
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Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2926 on: October 03, 2012, 05:56:41 PM »
I give up
I am just the welder and fabricator of bunch

I wounder if I can return all the stuff
No because I modified the air tank
The switch can be returned

Just damn
2002 RC51 1000 (SP2)
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2002 998 Dukati (Customers Bike)
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1978 GS750/840 Suzuki

Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2927 on: October 03, 2012, 07:11:58 PM »
Options: Foot activated rear master cylinder. Long lever to maximize pressure by your foot. Launch off of a line lock electrical switch release or use an air cylinder with leverage to put line pressure in.(in place of foot pressure) Release the air cylinder to launch or use the air cylinder to create the pressure, hold with the line lock, and use the line lock to launch.
I use an aftermarket rear master cylinder with a long lever with foot pressure to a line lock. No air tank to refill, no extra weight for tank and cylinder and it works on 11 second Hondamatics. On 10 second Hondamatics it's marginal, but works.
Air cylinders on handlebars, I'm not a fan of. If anything fatigues, you may be in deep trouble with steering... I've tried various bore handlebar master cylinders with longer levers that couldn't generate the psi of line pressure needed to hold the bike on the starting line. The line lock will hold the peak line pressure that your muscles can generate or air cylinder can generate. You can briefly generate a higher pressure with your hand, but can't hold that level while waiting for the tree to come down.
I'd be looking into the 1/2" or 5/8" bore master cylinders. That came the closest to ideal for my setup. One gave better "feel" the other gave more line pressure.
We can't forget the caliper; the clamp on the rotor. Pressure and surface area matters there. Opposed pistons apply the most even pressure; multiple pistons spread out the pressure over a wider area of the rotor. I use a car dual opposed aftermarket caliper.
There are two types of line locks; if you want one, get the one that allows you to add pressure to it after it is activated. (aka: one way check valve action)
Yes, you can put a two step on a bike to hold the rpms at a point that the rear brake will keep it still. The problem is that the rpms may be so low that it launches very slowly at a very low rpm. You've upgraded the motor, the rear braking system must be designed to keep up with the power.
Just my opinion.

Jon Weeks

Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2928 on: October 03, 2012, 07:34:40 PM »
How is the gasket sets working out Jon?
Let me know
sending out more tomorrow
2002 RC51 1000 (SP2)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2929 on: October 03, 2012, 08:31:09 PM »
Well,we'll see.What we have now is air cylinder providing pressure and a linelock to hold and release,if it'll hold we'll be good.Just gotta try and see what happens! ;D Bill
Whoa Jim,jury still out! ;)
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Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2930 on: October 05, 2012, 01:17:51 PM »
all rooms are confirmed untill Sunday for Valdosta under my company name Jmf Precision Welding Inc.
Who ever will be staying until Monday, needs to let  the front desk
know Sunday afternoon, so they can extend there stay.
We did get a racers discount from $110.00 a night down to $75.00 a night
From Thursday to Sunday will be 248.64................


who ever needs any more info just give me a call

be there or be last

Jim

« Last Edit: October 05, 2012, 02:38:44 PM by Jim F »
2002 RC51 1000 (SP2)
1983 GS1100EC Suzuki
2002 998 Dukati (Customers Bike)
1992 KTM500 2 stroke
1975 CB750/836 Honda
1978 GS750/840 Suzuki

Offline POPS 911

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2931 on: October 09, 2012, 05:52:43 AM »
BILL and JIM  :    I raced with a fellow who had a old GS SUZUKI and his line lock system he built with the parts you-all have =  he would push down on the stock rear brake lever at the last yellow staging bulb then would push in electric MPS air button [ use same air tank for brake lock and his air shifter ]  to air cylinder bolted to frame tab and to a tab welded on top of the rear foot brake lever  that was locked in place on rear disc  from the foot lever pressure  [ air cyl. would hold foot lever down and in place with foot off the lever. When last yellow flashed he let off air [ elec MPS ] button and air cyl. would release rear brake lever pressure and launched  =  he won many races and rounds.  He also ran a two step, so he could open carbs all open at launch.

POPS BK911

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2932 on: October 09, 2012, 06:57:55 AM »
Pops,pretty much what we're trying to achieve! ;) ;D I started last night,Samauto's on the BIG lift!!! Carbs off for rejetting,checked engine,all good,time to get it ready! ::)

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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2933 on: October 09, 2012, 07:26:45 AM »
 ;D went looking in Batcave,look what I found(fell on my head...lightbulb came on!).Sam,Jon,I think this cam might work better! ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Anyway ,it's going in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ::) 8)Y'all should have said so sooner!!!! :o ;) Sam loves me,he loves me not,oh it's the cam he was talking about! ;D Bill
VALDOSTA LOCK EM UP,CAUSE WE COMING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2934 on: October 09, 2012, 04:12:34 PM »
That's the best news I have heard in a long time.......no you plonker, not the cam ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Murphy has set out and is on route walking to Valdosta  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  should just make it by November 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)  Michael. ;)

Sam. ;)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 04:14:37 PM by Sam Green Racing »
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2935 on: October 09, 2012, 05:58:40 PM »
Yeh,him and Jim can do that gov't tuning aka "watching"! That's what I plan on doing....watching Sam Green get some win slips!!! Party in Valdosta! ;D 8) Bill....off to pull a cam out!!! :o ::) ;D
Sunny and 77 for this Sat's race! VooDoo,you still coming? Frank,what about y'all? Loved the DVDs,Thanks
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2936 on: October 09, 2012, 07:53:17 PM »
Time for the 125/75 to rest

Wish I was putting these carbs on,34 mm's,Thanks,Bear

The 295 is in,button up later,time to eat! ;D

Later,Bill
« Last Edit: October 09, 2012, 07:57:21 PM by Bill/BentON Racing »
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2937 on: October 10, 2012, 04:44:15 PM »
Yes,been thinking :o,don't think what we are proposing is going to work OK, HOLD! If the linelock just holds pressure,hand or foot,obviously much more avalalble with foot.If as we proposed air cylinder pushes M/C piston
then we need quite a bit of pressure to hold.140psi I don't think is enough,maybe foot pressure,then linelock that pressure might be best set up? What do Y'ALL think? Any and all ideas welcome.Pops no,we ain't going 10.99 with Samauto,maybe with Calendar Girl with the 915 and Mike's head! ;D Thanks,Bill

Ok, i'm about one confused back woods southerner (stereo type for our nothern friends-lol) so please explain why an air cylinder pushing against a rear bracket pedal @ 140 psi will not hold Samauto from moving @ 3500rpm?? Or am i to assume you want to hold pressure against both the front and rear brakes simultaneously?? If holding the rear is sufficient, let me refer you back to the pictures i posted months ago of the set up on my small tire Kaw. I can assure you that this arrangement worked @ 5400rpm against a 1425cc motor with a hand clutch to the point of burning up a set of fibers and warping a set of steels. Now if you want to lock boths the front and the rear, then an air cylinder will not work and you will need a true hydraulic line loc (roll control) placed inline on the brake hoses between the hand master cylinder and the calipers. Or if it was me, i would use both the hydraulic line lock and the pneumatic brake lock system you already have to keep things from being to complicated. All will be activated electrically and released the same way from a single momentary button mounted on the handle bars like and MPS or similar button. Any momentary button of good quality will do.

My backwoods brain just melted down thinking about that arrangement.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2938 on: October 10, 2012, 05:55:46 PM »
Man,what little brains left,just had to fix Calendar Girl ;).Now back to the cam and then the brakes! You backwoods redneck brother,I'll be in touch....works for you,works for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D Bill
You coming this Sat,or better Valdosta? 8)
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Stan-2

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2939 on: October 10, 2012, 09:04:30 PM »
Bill, On page 89 picture #2 of input shaft hub, the springs appear to be broken. I have seen this before, and I'm wondering if you or anyone else has experienced this failure? If so is there a cure?
Stan

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2940 on: October 11, 2012, 04:10:41 AM »
Well,I saw it,but have no answers! Honda sells assembly or sold assembly only! Not sure what happens if broken? ??? Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
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Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2941 on: October 11, 2012, 05:05:01 AM »
Man,what little brains left,just had to fix Calendar Girl ;).Now back to the cam and then the brakes! You backwoods redneck brother,I'll be in touch....works for you,works for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D Bill
You coming this Sat,or better Valdosta? 8)

By the way, i'm still trying to comprehend as to if the intention of the team is to make Samauto as quick as possible, or is it to make it consistent?? In other words, are we racing heads up or bracket racing?? Thats two completely different parameters and should be the determining factor on how you approach the braking problem. Personally, in a race situation where i want to make rounds and end up in the final round, pushing my bike up to and beyond its limits has never won me a round. My philosophy in bracket racing is to let the bike tell me what it likes and never go beyond that point. The bike will be by far more consistent when you find the happy medium. Not to bash but i think Samauto is being pushed a little to hard which kills the desired result. Find the point where the bike just tries to push through the beams and then back down the rpms by 200-300 or so (Pops once recommended a launch light- great idea). Remember, this is not a heads up race where you exceed the envelope to get that extra edge, this is bracket racing where repeatabilty is the name of the game. Calm down and let the bike give you feedback.

Bottom line, communicate with the bike and it will reward you with round wins which leads to a trip to the winners circle. Compete with the guy in the next lane and not the concept of having the quickest Hondamatic.

Ok, if i stepped on my teamates toes, tough. We are all here to help and see Sam make rounds in Valdosta. This post is my heartfelt contribution to the cause, not criticism of the players.   

Offline POPS 911

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2942 on: October 11, 2012, 09:12:26 AM »
DRAGRACER :  Your post was dead on about BRACKET drag racing bikes  = never run the other bike in the other lane = run your bike down the 1320' on your side of the track = your numbers that YOU KNOW YOUR BIKE CAN RUN  !!!  My TURTLE 400CC HONDAMATIC run 17.77 at 77 mph in 1320' with total 200lbs. rider w/leather and helmet,gloves,boots,neck collar.  When I race cars or bikes that run 177 mph at 7.77 et they run pass me at the 12" [ 1 foot mark ] and break out !!!!!!!  Let them try to lift or set up to slow down and I got them covered with the tree = my RT are .01 to .06 and they lose. Fast does not win a bracket race and the worlds fastest HONDAMATIC that sprays numbers all over the boards will lose many rounds.  Look up on the net MSP BUSA'S that for years won many big money grudge races $$$$$$$ = I was there with JOE-TROY and JOSH making them the baddest all-motor 68"-72" BUSA grudge bikes $$$$$$$$$$$$.  YOU DO NOT PUT A DIAL-IN ON A GRUDGE BIKE = YOU AIM AND SHOOT. Bracket bike = get the tree and RUN YOUR NUMBER = WIN TICKET IN YOUR HAND. [

POPS BK911  SLOWLY GOING ROUNDS = IT'S A BRACKET RACE = RUN YOUR DIAL-IN !!!!!!/size]

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2943 on: October 11, 2012, 09:48:49 AM »
Bill, On page 89 picture #2 of input shaft hub, the springs appear to be broken. I have seen this before, and I'm wondering if you or anyone else has experienced this failure? If so is there a cure?
Stan
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Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Stan-2

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2944 on: October 11, 2012, 09:58:01 AM »
Bill, On page 89 picture #2 of input shaft hub, the springs appear to be broken. I have seen this before, and I'm wondering if you or anyone else has experienced this failure? If so is there a cure?
Stan
Sure is.
Hello Mike, Would you mind sharing that cure?

Offline Leino

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2945 on: October 11, 2012, 10:04:03 AM »
Bill, On page 89 picture #2 of input shaft hub, the springs appear to be broken. I have seen this before, and I'm wondering if you or anyone else has experienced this failure? If so is there a cure?
Stan
Sure is.
Hello Mike, Would you mind sharing that cure?
I think he means the spring sure is broken  ::)

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2946 on: October 11, 2012, 10:47:49 AM »
Uh oh, me and Pops have found common ground ;D. Lol

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2947 on: October 11, 2012, 10:52:24 AM »
Well,MR Frank & Pops.....I AGREE! that's why the times last time were more consistent.HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,
Maye find the launch with the set up we have....@ 2000 probably,maybe try it Sat and hold off on other work rt now! ;D I think you're both dead on,Calendar Girl can run the quick times! ;) 8) Bill now,what do you think? ;D
« Last Edit: October 16, 2012, 04:37:23 PM by Bill/BentON Racing »
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2948 on: October 11, 2012, 11:15:09 AM »
     The springs seem to break with abuse and age. The easy way to fix it is to replace it with a used one from another parts motor. I don't believe that you can rebuild one without a lot of research for spring replacements that Honda doesn't offer seperately. Losing one every 34 years or so, doesn't make it a rapidly failing part.

     Dragracer: -The goals aren't mutually exclusive. You can run quicker than the 12.40's that this Hondamatic has gone and still be very consistent. I've run 11's at Prostar events with two successive rounds of sub .030 packages with my Hondamatic drag bike. For Street ET, you can win a lot of rounds with sub .050 packages.       
     The problem that has been created is the marginal rear brake setup for the current combination. When you improve the lower end powerband, you increase the forces against the rear brake. The current hand held rear brake pressure won't hold the bike consistently on the starting line while the tree comes down. When they chose to put the bigger displacement into the bike, they created this "new" problem. The "fix" is for a stronger braking system to hold the increased power. I've posted that the foot pressure will be greater than your left hand can create. A line lock will hold the peak pressure of whatever is applying the pressure. Air/foot/hand or any combination of them. I've recommended using a foot master cylinder to generate enough pressure to hold the bike on the line while the tree is coming down. (foot pressure through a line lock is all I've used for 11 second ET's) The front brakes have nothing to do with launching a Hondamatic off of the starting line. You can't be consistent launching a bike while doing a burnout on the starting line. Get more pressure to the caliper and see if it holds. If it doesn't hold, you next look at replacing the caliper to get more clamping force on the rear disc. The easy way to test it is to put the bike on the centerstand and mock up a launch. If the rear brake holds the rear wheel still while it's in the air under full throttle for 1.5 seconds, you've got your brake problem fixed. The desire to give Sam an 11 second time slip created this unintended problem.
     My only involvement with the effort has been to dial the bike in at Valdosta. Last November, Sam ran a 12.99 on my 12.98 dial and a 13.02 on a 12.99 dial. (The setup didn't allow me to dial above a 12.XX, so I couldn't go 13.01) That was when the bike was cold, which is about .5 to .6 slower than it runs warmed up. The next challenge will be the rear tire if they continue to improve the power. I had to go to a slick when I got to the mid 11's. To stay in Street ET, there are DOT slicks available that the quicker bikes use. It would require a different rim; possible offset front sprocket and possibly a wider swingarm. I suspect that the efforts will slow down to run quicker due to budgetary constraints....
     We've already seen back to back passes that were .001 apart to the 1/8th mile timing lights with Bill driving. Give me a brake that holds the bike on the starting line consistently, and I'll show you time slips that match sliders with autoshifters. The bike will be quicker with the 295 cam and the "old" carbs back on it this November. We just need a rear brake system to hold it at the starting line.

                                                                     Jon Weeks
     

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #2949 on: October 11, 2012, 11:15:49 AM »
Well,MR Frank & Pops.....I AGREE! that's why the times last times were more consistent.HUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM,
Maye find the launch with the set up we have....@ 2000 pobably,maybe try it Sat and hold off on other work rt now! ;D I think you're both dead on,Calendar Girl can run the quick times! ;) 8) Bill now,what do you think? ;D

Frank's shuttin up. That what he thinks- hahaha.

Calender Girl in the 10's!!!!! Go, go, go.

Frank thinks its time to pull his F model out of the corner, dust the cobb webs off and start freshing up the motor and modifying the arm to put a sticky 17" street tire on the rear to run street ET. Don't want my team to think i'm not willing to participate in the SOHC invasion in Valdosta.