Author Topic: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.  (Read 619018 times)

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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3000 on: October 18, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »
OK,well ,let's stop it! ;D These 4 little pcs oughta work! ;)

Oh better clean first! ::) ;D ;D

Much better!
Going to work!

Couple ways to attach.

We going to have a rear brake!!!!! ;D ;D Thanks,Jon Weeks,these PM pcs came off his 10 sec CB750A!!Bill
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Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3001 on: October 18, 2012, 09:09:51 PM »
Another job well done Bill.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3002 on: October 18, 2012, 09:20:34 PM »
Whoa there Frank,it's just mocked up, ;D.Jimmy's going to have to work his "magic"! But we will make it work!
Sam,you owe another round....or 3!!! ::) ;D Jon,many thanks!!! 8) Bill
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Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3003 on: October 18, 2012, 09:26:00 PM »
Bottom line, once a vision is sighted, the rest is simple. Good job Billy- lol.

Now how about post those pics for me i sent tonight. Got a few more coming. Yes, i am camera and picture posting challenged. I did not ride the short bus to school contrary to what it may seem. Hhahaha.

Offline POPS 911

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3004 on: October 19, 2012, 04:06:35 AM »
BILL: With all those brakes [ 4-6-8 pads ? ] you could hold back SPIDERMANS TOP FUEL BIKE !!!
You still have to lift your foot up and off the brake lever ?? I cheated with the MSP 1000 GSXR PRO-STAR CLASS bike by grinding down the front and rear pads sides [ just enough front pad to do a burn out ] rear pad down more = lot less friction rubbing on disc, those brakes are made to self clean by slightly rubbing. They caught us cheating by us running a slider with the front left clutch cyl. going to rear brake [ THE FIRST EVER GXSR 1000CC SUZUKIMATIC ] thanks to TONY LANG MTC FIRST 1000CC SLIDER.
We got torn  down at every race [ 2001 till the end of PRO-STAR RACING ] on every bike we won with, thanks to SCOOTER we learned to cheat better .......POPS BK911

Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3005 on: October 19, 2012, 06:03:16 AM »
The only problem I see is the break stay arm.................how much is over the top of the swing arm
to mount something to hold it?

the rest looks ok for mounts

well see

Jim
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3006 on: October 19, 2012, 06:14:32 AM »
All those calipers wil be active?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3007 on: October 19, 2012, 06:26:44 AM »
All those calipers wil be active?

Lol. that was my initial thought.

The problem i see at hand is not holding it back but are you making the most efficient use of that converter. In my experience with dragracing cars, you never want to push the rpm's beyond the flashpoint of the converter as this negates part of workings of the converter. You always want to keep the rpms on the starting  line below the point that its actually pushing the car. It allows the converter to flash up and the rpms increase without a preset load to throw the car off the starting line once it does hit the lockup point of the converter. In a slider clutch application, the same applies, you set the 2 step up just below the point the bike moves so when you release the button, the engine has a chance to rev slightly without load before launching the bike.

By bringing those rpms up so high that the bike is sliding the brakes, you are building a lot of heat in the converter which eventually will affect its efficiency- after all, the same oil in the motor is running through the converter. I go back to my posts before Bill went out to test the last time, let the bike tell you want it wants and don't force it to do something it doesn't like. His last results should speak for themselves. Again, you are bracket racing and looking for consistency, not trying to set records (or are we????

MY UNSOLICITED 2 CENTS. Let the comments begin.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 06:40:40 AM by dragracer »

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3008 on: October 19, 2012, 06:42:52 AM »
The solution may be to continue down the path of torque converter modification to get a higher rpm from it for the launch to make the bike quicker. Thats where i would spend all my money.

Offline Jim F

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3009 on: October 19, 2012, 08:05:28 AM »
Also how are you going to mount the caliper to the hanger?
just noticed that one..............
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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3010 on: October 19, 2012, 08:24:32 AM »
Nobody wants to remember the history on this epic. Converter loading/launching has been covered before on this topic.
     The PM caliper is to replace the two currently pictured on the bottom of the rotor. It mounts to the hanger using the two holes on the outer edges at the bottom of the caliper as shown in the pictures. The setup has been used successfully to bracket race on a quicker and faster Hondamatic drag bike than Sam's. The setup on the Hondamatic won't allow you to hit the "Stall speed" of the converter. I'm running 100 horses at the rear wheel with my 1180 cc Hondamatic and still haven't "stalled" the motor. I have repeatedly launched at 6 grand with it, using my modified converter. Jim has that converter information. A smaller horsepower motor just won't launch at as high an rpm using the same converter. Yes the converter generates a lot of heat when being forced to slip. That's why you don't get on the throttle until you see the tree start. That makes for about a one second loading/slipping of the converter. We run an aftermarket oil cooler to try and help control the oil temperatures. Flashing the converter may result in a slightly lower ET, but you can't repeat the flashing consistently. I've tried that. This is bracket racing. Loading it for one second doesn't overheat the oil, does result in consistent launches, and consistent ET's.
     I've drilled the launch sequence into Bill and Sam from day one. If you get onto the gas on the starting line before the tree starts, you run the risk of overheating the oil. Sometimes, you end up on the starting line for a while due to things that you just don't know about.(computer problems, vehicles on the far end of the track, etc) Overheat the oil and you lose tenths. The only way to get it back to normal is to change out the oil.
     Jim, I used that caliper on the top of the rotor on my setup. It compresses the brace to the swingarm when under load. That won't cause any major failures due to fatigue, unlike your current bottom mounted ones. Applying the brakes with the current setup tries to pull the brace apart at the mounting points. Neither is likely to totally fail, but on the top is almost guaranteed to work. Yes, periodic inspections of any race bike's brake system is always time well spent.
     Frank, I've tried looser converters to launch at a higher rpm. The efficiency loss more than offsets the higher rpm launch. ie, you go slower. A lockup converter would solve that but I haven't found someone to offer to make me one. Using this brake, I've gone .012 over my dial-in at a Prostar event in the first round; upped my dial-in by .01 for the second round, and run .001 over on that pass. Back to back runs in competition that were .001 apart on an 11 second Hondamatic using that exact rear brake system. Nobody needs to be spending more money now. We've got the parts that we need for a consistent bracket racing bike.
     If you want a record time slip, you do want to flash the converter. I've run these bikes for over 20 years. They can be an ATM. Chad Isley had a reputation for consistent winning with his. Why don't we hear about Chad winning major events today? He's gone away from his Hondamatic to a conventional drag bike. Why? Because he couldn't find the ET consistency that he felt that he needed. Chad cut some great lights with his Hondamatic. It ran low 13's/high 12's. It wasn't a highly modified bike. He launched off of the stock rear drum brake and foot petal. His oil cooling system was stock. Chad was kind enough to recommend me to Sam at the start of the build saga. I offered to put Chad on one of my Hondamatics to show him that the consistency was possible using my rules for when you load the converter, using the correct mineral based oil, and external oil cooler. He declined due to schedule conflicts/funding limitations. The nearest thing to a Hondamatic ATM should be at Valdosta in November with Sam driving.
     We should be getting near the rear tire traction limit using the current equipment with some more cam advance. If we could get a higher stall converter that works, we would need a rear rim and tire change. The current narrow bias ply tire is giving us low 1.9 second 60' times. There isn't much more left there. The combination is nearly maxed out. Let's see what Bill does using the "new' rear brake system at a test and tune before Valdosta. Those time slips and his feedback should help end the speculation.

                                               Jon Weeks

Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3011 on: October 19, 2012, 02:11:31 PM »
Thanks for  the regurgitation Jon. You have all the background from your bike with the larger motor. Its been my experience that not all motors respond the same- thats been quite evident by  the trials and tribulations of getting Samauto dialed in. I offered Bill a suggestion before he went to test this last time, the results netted the best time slip the bike has ever produced. Obviously many changes were done to the bike prior to this race so its not definitive as to if the quicker ET was  the result of mechanical changes or riding style adjustments.

As long as Sam Green makes rounds at the Cup race next month, i will be happy no matter  the process used to turn on the win light.

Looking forward to seeing you once again.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3012 on: October 19, 2012, 04:18:41 PM »
We hope to get to Test and Tune next week. I think we should get Sam to enter both Street and Pro ET,maximum seat time then!!! More chances for more rounds and win slips! I'll run Calendar Girl in Street ET.
Jim ,mounting won't be a problem...............I got plenty of zip ties!!! ;) Interested to see how converter works once rear brake is locked! ;D how high a RPM and how consistent? Looking forward to it! 8) Bill
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3013 on: October 19, 2012, 04:38:54 PM »
Great minds think alike, I was thinking the same just as you posted ;D ;D ;D it should be a big help running the two classes.
With everyone coming from all over, this sure is going to be one of the best events I have had the pleasure of riding in.
I know I have been quiet of late but I really do appreciate all the effort you have all put in. 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)
My big hope is that Frankie manages to get that big F rolling, that would be the iceing on the cake. ;)
It would have been extra special if our long haired friend from Finland could have made it :(

Regards Sam. ;)
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Offline dragracer

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3014 on: October 19, 2012, 06:42:00 PM »
Sam, i'm really feeling motivated now to get the Honda back up running thanks to all of you on this thread along with Bills work on Calender Girl and Jim's progress with the turbo bike.

I dropped the head and the tranny off today to get them worked on. My machinist is an old Honda officiando and is familiar with some of the nuances of our old motors. Still debating on those CycleX valves and the lean is more towards buying them thanks to info i recieved from our friend Mike. There really not much i want to do or can do to step up the motor to make it quicker so i have to concentrate on weight reduction to lower my ET's.

I know with more pushing from all my friends and the SOHC family, i will get the bike done in time to race with all of you in Valdosta.

Thanks for all of your support and for bringing the Samauto project to the SOHC Forums.

ATM, ATM ,ATM...

SOHC Invasion on its way.

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3015 on: October 20, 2012, 03:22:05 AM »
Frank,you'll get it,we have faith.Off to Jim's for brake work on Samauto! ;D .....this early you supposed to be RACING!! Bill
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Offline POPS 911

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3016 on: October 20, 2012, 05:39:30 AM »
MR JWEEKS : Do you run PODS or any AIR FILTERS on your 10 sec. Hondamatic Carbs ? Will the CV CARBS run without a fixed air filter ? Could open short velocity stacks give the Matic's more power w/CV carbs ?
With these new brakes on SAM'S BIKE will he be able to pin the throttle " FULL OPEN " against the stall and hold the wheel from creeping into a RED EYE on the last yellow bulb ?

POPS BK911

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3017 on: October 20, 2012, 07:16:39 AM »
Hi Richard, this system that Billy and Jimmy are fitting has come off JWs 10 second matic.
If it held Jons bike in stage witthout creeping forward, I'm sure it will hold Samauto.

Sam. ;)
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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3018 on: October 20, 2012, 08:08:01 AM »
Pops,
     I don't run velocity stacks, pods, or filters. I have run velocity stacks in the past. For my application the shortest ones worked best for ET.
     The brake system supplied has held 100 rear wheel horses still on the starting line. Sam's bike makes a little less than that. You stage, set the rear brake, go to full throttle on the start of the tree, and release the line lock to launch the bike. My best with the setup and a slick was high 1.7's for 60'. The system has worked fine in over 50 passes. It's marginal as I've increased power going into the 10's. I'm looking for something better for my dragbike that can give me higher line pressure. Boosters and pump assists don't work on a motorcycle without considerable penalties. I'm still looking.

                                                    Jon Weeks

Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3019 on: October 20, 2012, 08:57:49 AM »
What is the bore of that PM master?
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline POPS 911

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3020 on: October 20, 2012, 12:53:14 PM »
Thank you MR.WEEKS :  Information is put in my log book of things to do on my 1978 CB750A. I can set CV CARBS up on the dyno runs for the best overall settings. With a stock converter I think my CB750 SS  rear disc , wheel, and swing arm set up with left front rear brake lever will hold my 750 from creeping = I'm going to two step with the switch on the left hand rear brake lever so I can leave with both feet on rear peg at end of swing arm.

POPS BK911

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3021 on: October 20, 2012, 04:13:51 PM »
I have a good feeling.
Just came from the pub where I was asked how my friend in Boston was doing, (MikeR)
Then another mate asked how my Manchester City friend in the States was doing, Jims wife. (Jim F)

I have a good feeling for this trip. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3022 on: October 20, 2012, 05:02:43 PM »
Well,I feel tired!!! went to Jim's,we(he) made a caliper bracket! The rest you see! Damn puppy ate the banjo bolt(std) gotta try and get one tomorrow! >:(  It's going to work,had to make front line.Bill's custom ::) pedal!!

Gotta finish rebuilding caliper ,wire linelock,add fluid ,bleed and TEST!!!!! ;D

Sam,I'm going to get drunk when you pay up,you owe another round!!!! ;) ;D Bill
« Last Edit: October 20, 2012, 06:31:55 PM by Bill/BentON Racing »
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3023 on: October 20, 2012, 07:44:12 PM »
Nice how the swingarm can hold the bracket. Better shim that up Bill.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #3024 on: October 20, 2012, 08:19:43 PM »
 ;D You been talking to Jim! ;D 8) Tomorrow! Bill
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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See our latest build 'Captain Marvel' CLICK HERE