Author Topic: Velocity stacks????  (Read 43945 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Retro Rocket

  • Eggs are hard due too a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,279
  • ROCK & ROLL
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2010, 03:47:57 PM »
With all do respect i was looking for opinions based on experience.

"I'm hoping they will provide good flow. Time will tell."

Anyone else care to chime in.

They should work fine for the street, i wouldn't personally use stacks without an airbox.....been there done that, i like my bikes to run smooth. In saying that, i have an old set of CR31 from a Honda race kit and the stacks are the same as those, only difference is there is no internal lip.....

Mick
750 K2 1000cc
750 F1 970cc
750 Bitsa 900cc
If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.

Offline wookie

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • I would get up if i knew i fell
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2010, 04:49:46 PM »
Thanks Mick,
I don't ride my bike on a daily basis or commute on it for that matter, it's just a toy.  People have been saying that tuning with pods is a nightmare and that the stock airbox is the way to go.  Don't plan on putting on an airbox and i thought the bike might run that much better with stacks.  Of course i don't want to suck #$%* into my intake either so maybe i leave well enough alone.

Offline Steel Dragon Performance

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 65
    • Steel Dragon Performance
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2010, 05:35:31 PM »
If you go to our website and go under photo gallery,go to Jim's H1 Kawasaki stacks, you'll see that stack design that we make is very similar if not identical to your top picture showing the functions of a velocity stack.

Sorry, have to disagree.  I don't see a 1/4" radius at the entry for any of the stacks you offer.  The stack draws air from all around the stack entrance.  An abrupt edge will create turbulence, unless the inlet air flow has very slow velocity.  The required radius has been cut in half for the H1 example.

Anyway, if I understand you correctly, for use on the SOHC4 carbs, one has to bore the inner diameter of the carbs, to get a flow match at the carb to stack interface.  Do you publish inner diameter specs?


We offer multiple size radii and different designs of stacks such as tapered, half tapered, and straight belled stacks. Now if you go pull up a few racing/high performance websites that sell velocity stacks, such as Sudco for the CR carbs, Pingel for the Kawasaki/Suzuki, Ape for a variety, and Factory Pro for a variety, you'll find that each company has a simple, short to semi long radius flare on the end and a straight or tapered body to the stack. For the most part, these companies offer a short radius over the full radius for their motorcycles. Each radius differs between each company. Obviously these companies have been around for many years and know what they are doing. Our stack designs are similar to these companies other than the way they mount onto the carb. We use set screws, they use clamps.

Actually, the boring out of the inner diameter of the carbs was an idea of Mick's to overcome this small lip if one was worried about it, but this small twenty-five thousandths lip has never been a problem with proper jetting. If a customer requests it for a special application, then the bore is matched exactly to the carb throat.

Thanks,
Mike

Offline Tintop

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,965
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2010, 06:01:16 PM »
I can give you some personal experience, based on my street 7 TwinCam and race TC in a Cortina.

The street engine used 2 Weber 40's with 70mm / 30 degree upturn stacks, and K&N pancake filters (~4").  The race 1600 used 45's, 50mm stacks, and Pipercross foam socks.  Both were dry sump.  The street engine carbs were relatively easy to setup, given all the Weber variables.  Started every time, idled at 1000rpm (S2 cam), pulled cleanly everywere.  It made about 30hp more than a stock Big Valve (130).

The race engine was setup on a dyno.  It was basically a FB 1600 in a sedan.  Cosworth and Brian Hart parts shared equal billing, and the head was ported by G.Villenue's Atlantic engine builder.  192hp @ 9000rpm - with or without socks. ;)  On the track there was no definitive difference in lap times, using or not using socks.

There's no question they work in racing.  As to, why no difference in dyno hp.  My take is 192 is what that engine could make; the filters did not change the amount of available air required to do so.  To me the simple leason from that is - if an engine makes less hp with filtered stacks, then unfiltered, then the filter(s) are c#ap.  This is of course based on properly designed, and fitted stacks.

If you go to our website and go under photo gallery,go to Jim's H1 Kawasaki stacks, you'll see that stack design that we make is very similar if not identical to your top picture showing the functions of a velocity stack.

Sorry, have to disagree.  I don't see a 1/4" radius at the entry for any of the stacks you offer.  The stack draws air from all around the stack entrance.  An abrupt edge will create turbulence, unless the inlet air flow has very slow velocity.  The required radius has been cut in half for the H1 example.....

Sorry - I have to disagree.  Honda (500/550/750), Keihin CR & FCR, Weber, and Dellorto, all use a bell mouth shaped as pictured.  As an ultimate example of why it is not nessecary, look no further than the no holds bared CanAm injected big blocks.  If a fully rolled lip would have made any extra power those cars would have had them. ;)

High performance filters are generally rated for the hp they support.  ITG make a Weber 45 filter that is rated at 200+hp.  On my race engine that would have equated to x2 filters, and therefore support for 400+hp, on an engine making 192.  Lots of breathing space there. ;) :)

As I mentioned before, I plan on running the stock 77/78 stacks on my 550.  Why? Because they fit properly (factory design); and from personal experience, and what I have read here, there will not be the pod flat spot tuning problems.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline OLDHEAD

  • Full Member
  • *
  • Posts: 71
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2010, 11:27:15 PM »
this is getting better and better.
a huh

Offline singedebile

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #80 on: November 02, 2010, 10:49:32 AM »
I can give you some personal experience, based on my street 7 TwinCam and race TC in a Cortina.

The street engine used 2 Weber 40's with 70mm / 30 degree upturn stacks, and K&N pancake filters (~4").  The race 1600 used 45's, 50mm stacks, and Pipercross foam socks.  Both were dry sump.  The street engine carbs were relatively easy to setup, given all the Weber variables.  Started every time, idled at 1000rpm (S2 cam), pulled cleanly everywere.  It made about 30hp more than a stock Big Valve (130).

The race engine was setup on a dyno.  It was basically a FB 1600 in a sedan.  Cosworth and Brian Hart parts shared equal billing, and the head was ported by G.Villenue's Atlantic engine builder.  192hp @ 9000rpm - with or without socks. ;)  On the track there was no definitive difference in lap times, using or not using socks.

There's no question they work in racing.  As to, why no difference in dyno hp.  My take is 192 is what that engine could make; the filters did not change the amount of available air required to do so.  To me the simple leason from that is - if an engine makes less hp with filtered stacks, then unfiltered, then the filter(s) are c#ap.  This is of course based on properly designed, and fitted stacks.

If you go to our website and go under photo gallery,go to Jim's H1 Kawasaki stacks, you'll see that stack design that we make is very similar if not identical to your top picture showing the functions of a velocity stack.

Sorry, have to disagree.  I don't see a 1/4" radius at the entry for any of the stacks you offer.  The stack draws air from all around the stack entrance.  An abrupt edge will create turbulence, unless the inlet air flow has very slow velocity.  The required radius has been cut in half for the H1 example.....

Sorry - I have to disagree.  Honda (500/550/750), Keihin CR & FCR, Weber, and Dellorto, all use a bell mouth shaped as pictured.  As an ultimate example of why it is not nessecary, look no further than the no holds bared CanAm injected big blocks.  If a fully rolled lip would have made any extra power those cars would have had them. ;)

High performance filters are generally rated for the hp they support.  ITG make a Weber 45 filter that is rated at 200+hp.  On my race engine that would have equated to x2 filters, and therefore support for 400+hp, on an engine making 192.  Lots of breathing space there. ;) :)

As I mentioned before, I plan on running the stock 77/78 stacks on my 550.  Why? Because they fit properly (factory design); and from personal experience, and what I have read here, there will not be the pod flat spot tuning problems.

I think what TT is saying is not that they prevent "enough" air from coming in, but that the air that does come in is not always at an optimum airflow. Which can still fit into your dyno testing..  at 9000rpm the airflow may be fine, but lets see a dyno chart over the whole rev range with and without the socks. I bet you will see flat spots.
1975 cb550f super sport, 1976 Yamaha IT400, 1974 Suzuki T500

Offline wannabridin

  • Patience made me a
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,237
  • -Garrett
    • 1976 CB750K, under construction:
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #81 on: November 02, 2010, 11:10:16 AM »
what about dyno'ing with a nice high powered fan to simulate crosswinds?  the smooth radius will help draw in more laminar air from all sides of the stack, and minimize any boundary effects caused from an abrupt radius change (like on an unsmoothed edge) 

i'll agree with tintop in that using a high flow rated filter that's designed for the application is the key to using stacks and filters for the street...  the only problem with ALL this debate is that no two bikes are identical and no two riders have the same style or ability to "feel" differences between setups.  what we REALLY need to help put more of a scientific edge on this debate is dyno data comparing stock air boxes with stock and hi-flow air filters, pods of low and high quality, and lastly a good variety of stacks with and w/o screens, and with high and low quality filters.  oh ya, and we'd have to have multiple tests on each setup with cross winds as well to really simulate the riding conditions racers and street riders experience.

anyone up to par?  :-D
1976 CB750K, currently under construction:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=64468.0

-And if you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do...

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,484
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #82 on: November 02, 2010, 12:39:28 PM »
I can see the dyno operators rubbing their hands together.


Offline singedebile

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 583
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #83 on: November 02, 2010, 03:42:11 PM »
what about dyno'ing with a nice high powered fan to simulate crosswinds?  the smooth radius will help draw in more laminar air from all sides of the stack, and minimize any boundary effects caused from an abrupt radius change (like on an unsmoothed edge) 

i'll agree with tintop in that using a high flow rated filter that's designed for the application is the key to using stacks and filters for the street...  the only problem with ALL this debate is that no two bikes are identical and no two riders have the same style or ability to "feel" differences between setups.  what we REALLY need to help put more of a scientific edge on this debate is dyno data comparing stock air boxes with stock and hi-flow air filters, pods of low and high quality, and lastly a good variety of stacks with and w/o screens, and with high and low quality filters.  oh ya, and we'd have to have multiple tests on each setup with cross winds as well to really simulate the riding conditions racers and street riders experience.

anyone up to par?  :-D

You have a good point (maybe I am just catching up with the thread too), stack's need perfect airflow around them to work perfectly. But they operate in an environment where the air is anything but consistent. A 'Sock' may actually improve the consistency of the airflow! Either way I think the contemporary understanding involves 'stacks in a box' for optimum performance and I would love to see some marketed examples of performance airbox's for our bikes. Take the side covers off and show off that you are really after the highest possible performance with a modern tuned airbox! (that takes up all that spare space when the battery is removed in a functional way)

..or just go with a set of naked stacks that may hurt your performance by a couple percent for the looks of it, not that you or I will likely notice the difference. I personally would love a modern airbox, and doubt I would be putting stack's on any bike I own any time soon ..  but we all ride for different reasons and have vastly different idea's aesthetics.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 03:45:57 PM by singedebile »
1975 cb550f super sport, 1976 Yamaha IT400, 1974 Suzuki T500

Offline Tintop

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,965
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #84 on: November 02, 2010, 06:29:37 PM »
I can see the dyno operators rubbing their hands together.

I can see the headline now - Dyno operator dies of cuts.
While trying to stack all the dyno run sheets from a multitude of air box test for SOHC/4; the operator jog the pile and died of a 1000 cuts. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline wookie

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 201
  • I would get up if i knew i fell
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #85 on: November 09, 2010, 07:07:04 PM »
Last week, just before i put the bike away for the season i put on the stacks to see what kind of difference they make.

Bike is tuned for pods and runs excellent.  Threw on the stacks and it immediately felt lean.  I wonder how much more fuel i would need and how much more power it would make?  There seems to be some potential there.  On the other hand i spent the summer tuning for the pods.... ::), don't really want to go thru that again for a while.

Offline Tintop

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,965
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2010, 08:01:55 PM »
As you have all winter to think about it, you might want to follow my thread - http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=79491.0

I'll let you make up your own mind if it will work for you, as there is lots of information in this thread.
1977 CB550/4 Cafe - Speed Warrior / BOTM 03/11
1980 CB750F (project)
Whittaker GBF Vintage Racing Sidecar (XS750 power) - ITG / 151's / CMR Racing Products (SOLD)
1976 CB400 SS - stock / BOTM 04/11 (SOLD)
1973 CB750 K - basket case (SOLD)
77 CB550 Cafe build
550/750 Filter Thread
Sidecar Rebuild Thread

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2012, 08:22:48 PM »
I have read many posts and in none of the posts has any person increased the size of the idle jets only the main jet. even with performance exhaust and free flowing intake modifications.

One person raised the needle from the middle position 1.5 notches by using shims.

My question is has ANYONE even  tried larger idle jets?
What were the results? #45's or #42's

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #88 on: January 22, 2012, 08:56:08 AM »
Plus the engine would just suck the foam in.

Sam. ;)
The Honda factory really restricts  the air opening on the stock air box.


Thats what I was thinking would happen.  :-\

Is there any real way to put a filter on them?

Putting any sort of fillter on them other than a mesh screen defeats the object of having them on in the first place.
It's allready been said a few posts back by Mystic_1 You either have carbs with stacks (maximum flow) carbs with pods (slightly restricted flow) or carbs with filters (stock restricted flow), there's no in between, end of story.
Is you want to look cool, buy a pair of sun shades and a Sam Green Tee shirt :D :D :D :D :D

Sam. ;)

Offline voxonda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,231
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #89 on: January 22, 2012, 09:02:25 AM »
I have read many posts and in none of the posts has any person increased the size of the idle jets only the main jet. even with performance exhaust and free flowing intake modifications.

One person raised the needle from the middle position 1.5 notches by using shims.

My question is has ANYONE even  tried larger idle jets?
What were the results? #45's or #42's

I run the PD's with open stacks and open exhaust. Needle in middle position, main #150, Runs great, no hazzle with idle.

Rob
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2012, 12:35:07 PM »
I have read many posts and in none of the posts has any person increased the size of the idle jets only the main jet. even with performance exhaust and free flowing intake modifications.

One person raised the needle from the middle position 1.5 notches by using shims.

My question is has ANYONE even  tried larger idle jets?
What were the results? #45's or #42's

I run the PD's with open stacks and open exhaust. Needle in middle position, main #150, Runs great, no hazzle with idle.

Rob

So your carbs have adjustable needles. What year are those carbs?
PD's WITH adjustable needles. I have a 1978 and the needles do not have adjustment.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #91 on: January 22, 2012, 12:36:35 PM »
I have read many posts and in none of the posts has any person increased the size of the idle jets only the main jet. even with performance exhaust and free flowing intake modifications.

One person raised the needle from the middle position 1.5 notches by using shims.

My question is has ANYONE even  tried larger idle jets?
What were the results? #45's or #42's

I run the PD's with open stacks and open exhaust. Needle in middle position, main #150, Runs great, no hazzle with idle.

Rob

And do you have #35 idle jets? Or are they larger?

Offline voxonda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,231
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #92 on: January 22, 2012, 12:53:45 PM »
#35 idle jets.
Pd's are '78. Think difference has to do with government regulations. Seen that befor on Yamaha's that were imported from the US to Europe.
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #93 on: January 22, 2012, 02:51:59 PM »
#35 idle jets.
Pd's are '78. Think difference has to do with government regulations. Seen that befor on Yamaha's that were imported from the US to Europe.

"I run the PD's with open stacks and open exhaust. Needle in middle position, main #150, Runs great, no hazzle with idle."

I run what? what year? Was it a CB750?
how many turns out on the pilot air screw or fuel enrichment screw?
You said #35 idle jets.
Were the #150 mains stock in the Netherlands?

I am just trying to get ALL the facts.
 
« Last Edit: January 22, 2012, 02:58:36 PM by lucky »

Offline voxonda

  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,231
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #94 on: January 22, 2012, 03:07:36 PM »

On this pic, no open stacks, due to use on street.
Engine and carb's are '78 F2
41a Webcam, slightly ported head
Oem mains are #105.

completely removed chokes:
Better sorry for failing then for the lack of trying.

Offline bwaller

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,484
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2012, 12:22:14 PM »
Not 750 info, but I used PD carbs on a CB550/592 and needed to increase the pilots from stock 42 to 46. This process took a few tries using a tapered jet reamer by hand and then checking diametre with gauge pins. It is a street bike so I rode it a while after each attempt.  After I was happy with it I did some pulls on a dyno to check A/F. These carbs work fine.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2012, 03:46:45 PM »
I like that orange bike Voxonda . Very cool.
I came across this article on the chopper forum, and choppers use velocity stacks a lot.
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/carb_info/7778_pilots/Boring_77-78_Pilots.pdf

Check it out.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2012, 03:49:34 PM »
Not 750 info, but I used PD carbs on a CB550/592 and needed to increase the pilots from stock 42 to 46. This process took a few tries using a tapered jet reamer by hand and then checking diametre with gauge pins. It is a street bike so I rode it a while after each attempt.  After I was happy with it I did some pulls on a dyno to check A/F. These carbs work fine.

Thanks for that valuable info.
Thanks for taking the time to give it to us.
#45's (push in style) are sold on Ebay through Sirius Consolidated. Good people too.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #98 on: January 24, 2012, 10:52:01 AM »
Not 750 info, but I used PD carbs on a CB550/592 and needed to increase the pilots from stock 42 to 46. This process took a few tries using a tapered jet reamer by hand and then checking diametre with gauge pins. It is a street bike so I rode it a while after each attempt.  After I was happy with it I did some pulls on a dyno to check A/F. These carbs work fine.

Thanks BWALLER for posting the information.
Maybe this will be the best thread on jetting for pods or velocity stacks.

Offline lucky

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,717
Re: Velocity stacks????
« Reply #99 on: February 20, 2012, 01:04:29 PM »
As I suggested a few back, a foam sock is a good compromise when it comes to filtering rampipes. In my experience better than a 'pod'.

But agree that the best for max flow is 'open'.
You say there is no in between, and I know what you mean, but the optimum for a filtered induction has to be the airbox and remote filter.


I just discovered something.
Take a pod filter and breathe in and out of it.
Almost no restriction. Same with a velocity stack.
Jetting can be the same for the velocity stack and the pod"filter"