Author Topic: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal  (Read 1853 times)

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Offline medic09

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Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« on: December 03, 2009, 07:44:54 AM »
This is just sad.  The whole thing revolves in the end on aesthetics, not regulations.  Some folks have no respect.  If you sympathize with this man, send a note to the Home Owner's Association lawyers sharing your disgust or outrage.

Col. Barfoot, I salute you and thank you for your service to civil society!

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/POLEGAT02_20091202-091201/309031/
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 08:00:47 AM »
Yes, sad. However, it points out some of the pitfalls of living in such an environment, that is a place governed by the rules of a home owners association. Personally, I would never live in one nor would I care for a historic district either. Too many folks trying to mind 'my' business. I think he would be fighting a losing battle if he tried to take them on, but good luck to him if he does.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline medic09

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 08:12:39 AM »
Bob, apparently there is no specific regulation banning flagpoles.  They made the decision to pursue on aesthetics.  My in-laws live in such a community, and also had problems over some of the more vague, subjective regs.  They won in the end.

Folks can send a protest to the Association's lawyers.  I think it is a good idea.  At least we should register our protest over how they are treating this man.  Their freedom to persecute him depends on his service!  They could use better judgement...
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 08:28:36 AM »
this is an absolute DISGRACE! my parents lived in a subdivision in florida back in the 90's and when i saw no restriction mentioned against flagpoles (lots of other stuff like satelite dishes and clothes lines were) i put a flag pole up for dad just before veterans day in 1990. they were told by the homeowners association that it had to be removed for asthetic reasons as well. it went back and forth with dad being threatened with large fines. i called the local fox station (channel 13 tampa bay) that had this consumers rights guy, Eric Seidel, that did a segment on their 6 oclock news. after all sorts of very negative publicity dad was left alone. dad was in the army during WWII and he was at anzio, lost alot of friends and almost lost HIS life as well. i cant believe that these killjoys would begrudge this man his flagpole! they should all be ashamed of themselves!
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline medic09

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 08:40:54 AM »
This is from the Facebook page in his support:

Call and or fax Coates & Davenport, the law firm representing the home owner association.

FLOOD THEM WITH CALLS!!

Coates & Davenport
5206 Markel Road, Suite 200
Richmond VA 23230
Toll Free: (800) 450-8311
Local Phone: (804) 285-7000
General Fax: (804) 285-2849
Real Estate Fax: (804) 285-3426

You can also visit their site and send them a message: http://www.coateslaw.com/CM/Custom/Contact.asp
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Offline Bonafide

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 08:52:33 AM »
Bob, apparently there is no specific regulation banning flagpoles.  They made the decision to pursue on aesthetics. 

I've had to deal with my HOA before - basically it was just one guy who wants to impose his interpretation of the vaguely written rules. Headache for sure ... but there's always an open discussion of what's reasonable and accepted. Of course, you'll always have someone that deals in extremes. While I understand this issue, it really only pertains to the homeowners of the neighborhood and not concerned citizens who dont.

I snapped this pic while riding in TN this summer. Now that's aesthetics!!


Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2009, 06:43:58 AM »
Now I am not a war hungry and really strongly dislike the iraq and afganistan debacles but this guy did as ordered and survived. He did this for his country which allows these associations. This is more than just bad taste, this is just plain wrong. If he wants his flagpole, I say give him a bigger one! He has probably served his country more than ANY of the people on the association board.
Like bob, I will never live in an association. It is my home and my property, I will do what I want on it.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2009, 08:59:49 AM »

Like bob, I will never live in an association. It is my home and my property, I will do what I want on it.

Exactly.  Easiest way to avoid the headaches and troubles cause by an HOA is to not live in one.  If you want the gentrification and aesthetics provided by an HOA, then by all means sign the paperwork and pay the fees, but don't expect me to care if it turns against you because you disagree with some of the decisions. 

This HOA has every right to tell this man he can't have that flag pole in his yard, because HE gave them that right by buying that house and joining.  If there were vague areas in the contract that could be interpreted in ways that he disagreed with, then he shouldn't have joined.   

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2009, 09:15:29 AM »
If they had half a brain among them they would simply move his flagpole to the entrance of the community and ask him to raise and lower the flag there daily.  Honor him and this country, and solve the problem at the same time.

Instead, they go and hire lawyers?  Stupid.
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2009, 10:03:47 AM »
He will prevail. They treid this crap in Florida when a car dealer raised a huge flag after 9/11. It was not up to town code. The locals were up in arms and the Judge(elected) told the Town, that in the U.S. the Flag is never out of code. I expect the same will happen here. I hate these types of Communities where people "think who they are" (NY expression)
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2009, 11:52:23 AM »
If they had half a brain among them they would simply move his flagpole to the entrance of the community and ask him to raise and lower the flag there daily.  Honor him and this country, and solve the problem at the same time.

Instead, they go and hire lawyers?  Stupid.


thats what our society has become Ed, a litigious, sue your ass off society. it's all going to hell in a handbasket
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2009, 12:54:54 PM »
This isn't about this man not being allowed to fly his American flag.  It's about the PLACEMENT of his flag POLE.  Anyone trying to make this about somebody telling somebody else they can't fly the American flag is either ignorant of the facts or they're an "ends justify the means" kind of person and are no better than the people they're rallying against.   

MötleyRöx

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2009, 02:32:04 PM »
Agreed, Gordon!
If someone told me not to fly my 3 legged flag on a flag pole on my front lawn, but it would be quite alright if I flew it off my front porch... I'd be fine and dandy with that.
That would, of course, be after I had signed the contract to abide by all aesthetic rules and regulations of my precinct.  

EDIT:
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/FLAG041_20091203-234802/309499/#comments

I want to quote a few things from this article, as well...

"This is not about the American flag," the organization said Wednesday. "This is about the flagpole."

"A Henrico judge ruled, almost a decade ago, in a similar dispute in another regulated community that a war veteran violated structural covenants there when he erected a flagpole against the community's policies."

"Since then, however, Congress has passed laws forbidding homeowners associations from restricting the display of the flag on residential property."  ... not to be read as the restriction on type of flagpole.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 03:10:21 PM by MötleyRöx »

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2009, 04:55:42 PM »
OK, so we're just as guilty of bickering over stupidity as the homeowner's association, I see.

What do you figure the legal fees were to sue that war hero into removing his flagpole?  Was it really in the best interest of the members of the homeowner's association to throw that money away?  It is their money to throw away, but this is just STUPID.

Wouldn't it have been CHEAPER to move his flagpole (with his permission, and likely enthusiasm, of course) to the entrance of the community and ask him to raise and lower his flag there daily?  Thus, they would honor both this war hero and this fine nation, and avoid stupid litigation.

Good press.  Increased property values.  Increased pride.  Happy war hero.  Win-win.

Instead what we have here is lose-lose.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #14 on: December 04, 2009, 05:44:51 PM »
Some people seek a community with lots of rules, makes 'em feel 'safe' that they won't be exposed to...'fill-in-the-blank'. The fact that this elderly man is a Veteran makes no difference, he signed-up for the rules same as everyone else....I'm with Gordon and a humble opinion.
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Offline Steve F

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2009, 07:46:54 PM »
If they had half a brain among them they would simply move his flagpole to the entrance of the community and ask him to raise and lower the flag there daily.  Honor him and this country, and solve the problem at the same time.

Instead, they go and hire lawyers?  Stupid.
I really LIKE that idea.  Where too tied up in litigation instead of looking for the simple and INTELLIGENT resolve.  This story made it on the national news tonight (NBC w/ Brian Williams).
God bless him and all of our veterans for their sacrifices.  They deserve all this country can give them and that includes huge support in all areas.  Screw the HOA and their suck-@$$ lawyers.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2009, 06:29:55 AM »
This is about as big a non-issue as you can get.  The ONLY reason this is in the news or that anybody cares is because this man is a war veteran. 

The man signed the contract with the HOA.  He's been enjoying the benefits of said contract with the HOA.  Now that they've made a decision that he doesn't like all of a sudden it's not good enough for him.  Well too bad.  I have as much sympathy for his situation as I do for somebody who gets their car reposessed because they stopped making the payments.  You enter into an agreement, you reap the rewards of that agreement, you have to abide by ALL aspects of that agreement.

Yes, he fought for our country so we can have the right to fly the American flag.  He also fought so he can have the right to sign a contract and live in a protected bubble of a neighborhood, separate from harsh realities of the real world, that's free from eyesores and unsavory individuals.  You make a deal with the devil, you have to pay up when he comes calling.   

Offline CBJoe

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2009, 09:13:07 AM »
This is about as big a non-issue as you can get.  The ONLY reason this is in the news or that anybody cares is because this man is a war veteran. 

The man signed the contract with the HOA.  He's been enjoying the benefits of said contract with the HOA.  Now that they've made a decision that he doesn't like all of a sudden it's not good enough for him.  Well too bad.  I have as much sympathy for his situation as I do for somebody who gets their car reposessed because they stopped making the payments.  You enter into an agreement, you reap the rewards of that agreement, you have to abide by ALL aspects of that agreement.

Yes, he fought for our country so we can have the right to fly the American flag.  He also fought so he can have the right to sign a contract and live in a protected bubble of a neighborhood, separate from harsh realities of the real world, that's free from eyesores and unsavory individuals.  You make a deal with the devil, you have to pay up when he comes calling.   

+1

First off... I have every respect for the man and his wish.  I think it's stupid that people argue over such things, but they created their own situation by building these hovels of "humanity" where they can enjoy the benefit of group support.

The devil's in the details... I hear so many complaints from home owners at work who live in the vinyl villages.  You agreed, signed,  and enjoy the perks, but the price is paid if you don't follow the "rules" that you agreed to.

No thank you  :) .... I'll keep my urban neighbourhood with its good, bad, and ugly attributes.  I'll shovel my own snow and put up whatever yard decorations that I wish. 

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Offline medic09

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2009, 08:39:22 PM »
Gordon, it may be a non-issue on technical grounds (or not; depends on interpretation of the HOA rule); but it is a lousy way to treat an old man who not only has done no real harm, but to whom we owe quite a large debt of gratitude.  The HOA are being jerks about this, and they're doing it to an old man.  It may not be worth national news; but it is worth a small dose of moral indignation.  I like to think my parents taught me better...  Sometimes that's the sort of value we need to promote.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2009, 09:36:28 PM »
I agree with you completely, Medic. 

It's a lousy way to treat anybody, let alone an elderly war veteran.  There are any number of other, more sensitive ways this could have been handled that would have satisfied both parties, but that's not the way HOA's conduct their business, at least from what I've heard from friends and family who've chosen to live in them.  You do something wrong, you get a letter.  You don't make the appropriate changes, you get fined.  You still don't make the changes, you get sued and kicked out. 

HOA's have always seemed like suburban mini-mobs to me.  You pay them for protection, and everything's fine as long as you follow the rules, but as soon as you step out of line there's hell to pay.  The main difference is that joining an HOA is completely voluntary. 

He needs to follow the rules and decisions of the HOA that he agreed to follow when he purchased his house, take down the offending flag pole, and hang his flag from his front porch so his house will blend into the homogenized neighborhood that he apparently liked so much he decided to buy a house there. 

I just absolutely cannot see the problem here.  If he built a fence that was too tall, or planted a tree in an unapproved spot, or left his rust-bucket of a car parked on the street they'd tell him to move it, and nobody else would give a rat's ass, but God forbid they should tell him he can't plant a flag pole anywhere he wants to, even though he agreed to live by the decisions of the HOA. 

I whole-heartedly agree that in many, many situations a 90 year old veteran should be shown a certain amount of special consideration, but HOA's don't work that way, and in order to maintain the sanctity of the neighborhoods that they "protect", they can't work that way, and that is one of the major flaws to their whole existence. 
   

Offline edbikerii

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 04:34:00 AM »
For the record, Gordon, I agree with you 100%.  If you can't follow the rules, don't move into such a community.  I just think that they SHOULD show a war hero special consideration, and if they didn't have their heads up their asses, they could have handled it better.

Of course, there is no law saying that you must behave intelligently.  Imagine if there were?
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Offline demon78

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 04:52:03 AM »
Interesting. Are these the so called gated communities? The ones that turn into high priced slums when the economy turns bad? I personally find it hard believe that people want to huddle together that bad.
Bill the demon.

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2009, 07:28:27 AM »


HOA's have always seemed like suburban mini-mobs to me.  You pay them for protection, and everything's fine as long as you follow the rules, but as soon as you step out of line there's hell to pay.  The main difference is that joining an HOA is completely voluntary. 


   

when the well on the horse farm went dry, i had to move myself and the critters for 6 months and I went to live with my parents, in a small subdivision with an HOA. i got fussed at for parking my horse trailer (2 horse bumper pull) in the driveway, no problem i put it at the place i leased to keep the horses) but then we got a letter about my truck being parked in the driveway (it had the logo for my farm painted on the door) that was also my daily transportation and wouldnt fit into the garage at my parents house. we ended up in court over it, my parents and i won but, what a hassle. i'll never live in another area with an HOA again.
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Offline CBJoe

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Re: Colonel Barfoot and the Flagpole Scandal
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2009, 07:42:16 AM »
Interesting. Are these the so called gated communities? The ones that turn into high priced slums when the economy turns bad? I personally find it hard believe that people want to huddle together that bad.
Bill the demon.

Not really specific to gated communities. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeowner_association
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