Author Topic: Fibreglass tanks still safe?  (Read 5070 times)

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Offline voxonda

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Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« on: December 06, 2009, 02:18:33 pm »
While on a very nice weekend with my wife in Antwerpen in Belgium, I took the liberty of buying the latest copy of the "Classic bike" magazine. When reading it, after diner, back in the hotelroom I came across an article about the safety of a fiberglass tank which came from a Royal Enfield parts specialist in England.
They have withdraw their complete stock of fibreglass tanks, after a tank of them started to dissolve. It seems to be the second in three months time that had this problem. They are now investigating the problem but it seems to have to do with the ethanol in the unleaded pump petrol.

Just want to make this public to all that with the arrival of the modern fuels, there can be problems with these fibreglass tanks whether coated or not.

Rob
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2009, 02:28:58 pm »
line the tank with something like por15, do at least 2 layers of it too.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2009, 03:12:54 pm »
Or don't use fuel that has ethanol in it as it is highly corrosive.  I would like to know what the fuel cells that the Aussie V8 race cars use as they run on E85, 85% ethanol...

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Offline JLeather

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2009, 04:30:21 pm »
Around here you can't get fuel without Ethanol, about 10%, unless you buy CAM2 race gas.  All grades of pump gas have ethanol.  POR15 does work, as does Caswell, but make sure you follow all the directions.  It seems to me you have to rough up the fiberglass a bit inside to get it to stick.  Throw in a handfull of screws, wrap it in a towel, and let it spend an hour in the dryer (without heat of course).  But, yeah, modern fuels eat fiberglass tanks pretty badly.  I thought there was a different resin you could use, but I'm not a fiberglass expert so I dunno if it's true or not.

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2009, 01:44:10 am »
Petseal works too - makes it very safe to use and they are still used in racing here. It's all down to the preparation as usual. Can't remember who said it but it's a good yardstick (Probably Stirling Moss!) "If you fail to prepare, you prepare to fail..."
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Offline voxonda

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2009, 04:03:34 am »
Agree, here we use liner too, but seems the amount of ethanol will be raised here as per january 1st. Just hope that doesn't affect the liner.
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Offline Gregorymoto

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2009, 05:46:31 am »
I 4th the POR liner. But is it safe?

If you have a liner in it and it holds, your good. BUT. I have cracked my tank 2 times. Once after laying it down, all the gas came out and i had gas all over me after getting up and righting the bike up.

The second some numb nut backed into the bike a knocked it over. There went 3 gallons of gas all over the street and someone called the fire dept, and they towed my bike.

I still run the tank on the bike but i'm always looking for an aluminum tank that is less than my left arm in cost.
Yep, i have issues with this sort of stuff.

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2009, 07:11:54 am »
I guess that's the issue isn't it. I have an alloy tank on my moriwaki that is lighter than anything I could get in GRP. If you can afford it, go with aluminium any day...
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2009, 07:51:02 am »
That's aluminum Isn't it Mi Lord, for the next few days at any rate. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

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Offline ColinMc

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2009, 11:43:26 am »
POR15 tank liner IS NOT recommended for Fiberglass tanks! As per 3 reps i've talked to about it directly at POR15. They recommended to use the Caswell...or pretty much anything that's epoxy and 2 part(with a hardener)

I've lined two fiberglass tanks now with the Caswell stuff but have yet to test them to see how it's gonna hold up.

The POR15 tank liner is meant to be used on an etched or treated metal (with their Metal Ready solvent) fiberglass can't really be etched like steel or aluminum can.
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 01:49:27 pm »
Many discussions about this for the past 2 years............I have a fiberglass tank and plan to line it before I paint it for my cafe project.  I will use what my local radiator shop repair man suggests.......I think he calls it Red Coat.....but he warns to repeat the liner every 2 or 3 years.

Alloy would be best.............but for about 1/2 the price you can get a variety of Vinyl-resin tanks that will hold anything.  Contact Mike at Classic Glass in Rockton, Il..............815-624-7831

The tank in my avitar is one of Mike's tanks...........
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 01:52:34 pm »
Dose he have a website Dennis?

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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 01:58:39 pm »
That's aluminum Isn't it Mi Lord, for the next few days at any rate. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)
Yes that's right Sam - they pronounce it a-looo-min-um, we pronounce it...correctly  ;D
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 02:10:24 pm »
Mike is old-school......lots of flat track and road racing stories from the 60s and 70s.  He is a big Bultaco fan. No web-site that I know of.  I talked with Mike this past August and he is planning to retire in the Carribean.  Maybe he would sell his molds..............for a % of the sales.  The vinyl is really nice because you can work with the tank to build mounts or move petcocks.  Mike also has the Manza-style bungs to mold in place.  Prices are between $400 and $500.  He also makes seats and plays with fairings.  The exterior of the tanks require minor paint-prep. Rockton is near Rockford....about an hour west of Chicago.
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2009, 02:33:46 pm »
POR15 tank liner IS NOT recommended for Fiberglass tanks! As per 3 reps i've talked to about it directly at POR15. They recommended to use the Caswell...or pretty much anything that's epoxy and 2 part(with a hardener)

I've lined two fiberglass tanks now with the Caswell stuff but have yet to test them to see how it's gonna hold up.

The POR15 tank liner is meant to be used on an etched or treated metal (with their Metal Ready solvent) fiberglass can't really be etched like steel or aluminum can.

Why not just make the tanks using epoxy resin? Your correct about etching Colin, to etch glass you need to sand the surface to rough it up because after fibreglass sets it has an oily finish. Also when repairing a fibreglass tank, epoxy resin should be used as it bonds better to the original glass than normal glass resin.
When repairing glass boats i always use epoxy, it will never delaminate if done properly..

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Offline Gregorymoto

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2009, 05:44:05 am »
I have to say this, most everything on my bike is not recommended. But it works just as i thought it out. And the POR, say what u will, but it has worked for me.
vinyl gas tank, nice. I built a Vac U Form last year for my shop. I have been thinking about making a Vinyl insert for my tank. Or making a Neg and covering it with carbon cloth. If this guy has pics on line i would love to see them.
Yep, i have issues with this sort of stuff.

Offline ColinMc

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 08:04:40 am »
Well i'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying the company itself recommends using a different product to seal fiberglass tanks...so if that's the case I won't run the risk. Supposedly from what my rep said they are coming out with a fiberglass tank sealing product soon, and it will be along the lines of a two part epoxy sealer like the Redcote and Caswell ones.

The main issue is again that their tank liner is meant to adhere to a surface that is etched and has a certain PH level and even a slight level of oxidation improves adhesion in that case. Something that can't occur in a fiberglass surface.

Just like you can prime on top of bare metal with regular 2k primer when you are painting a car...and it will work...but long term adhesion is a problem, that's why they make self etching primers. There are reasons certain things are specifically recommended. Especially when it comes to paint/sealers/body stuff.

I hope your liner never fails, and i hope your tank doesn't get ruined...and who knows it probably won't. But that's a situation where it's a risk I am not willing to take. So if someone now wants to seal a fiberglass tank they just got, of course i'm going to recommend NOT using POR15 tank liner. If anyone already has and it's working fine, they are lucky people and there is nothing wrong with that. But this is a case where the company says NOT to use it!

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Offline d3buttz

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 09:05:46 am »
I almost ruined my original never used Dunstall tank. below is a reply i wrote on my project build,

"i find the tank and purchase it and wanted it painted(it never had a drop of gas, never mounted on a bike and never painted-it was perfect).  i wanted the alloy look so i called around and a chopper/service paint shop said they could do it.  i think they did a fantastic job on the paint to make it look like alloy but here is where it gets bad.  i told them that i wanted it sealed and they said, "oh its fibreglass, you dont have to seal it."  Thinking that they are the pros and the fact that i was (and still am) new at bikes i believed them i took their word.   bad mistake and toatally my fault.  the gas had eaten all the way thru the epoxy to the glass and my carbs were caked with gooey epoxy- intake/exhast ports and pistons are coated in the dried epoxy too. this may have attributed to my current motor build.  anyways-i dried the tank and coated it with (i forget the name-gold something) the correct sealer and luckily it worked perfect and saved the tank. still though, the sealer cured and pulled the softspots of the really damaged bottom and wrinkled the paint some.
i went back to the shop and wanted them to repaint it and of course- it wasnt their fault.  smoke those guys(real tossers too, you know tattooed all the way up and razor shaved head due to baldness and "west coast customs" sunglasses on their forehead to simulate hair they once had). i wish i had known about this great forum at the time- or i couldve asked someone.  i feel like an ass for almost ruining a very expensive/irreplaceable tank.  lesson learned. "

this kbs stuff SAVED my tank and i still use the crap ethanol mix now, and my tank is still great- so im sure it will keep any fiberglass "unruined" tank perfect for years. I 100 percent back this stuffs quality. Oh, and it is made purposely for fiberglass.
http://www.kbs-coatings.com/KBS-Large-Cycle-Tank-Sealer-Kit_p_32.html




these pics are the aftermath of no sealing- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=45448.50
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 09:12:43 am by d3buttz »
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=80508.0

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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 01:38:01 pm »
Well i'm not saying it won't work, i'm saying the company itself recommends using a different product to seal fiberglass tanks...so if that's the case I won't run the risk. Supposedly from what my rep said they are coming out with a fiberglass tank sealing product soon, and it will be along the lines of a two part epoxy sealer like the Redcote and Caswell ones.

The main issue is again that their tank liner is meant to adhere to a surface that is etched and has a certain PH level and even a slight level of oxidation improves adhesion in that case. Something that can't occur in a fiberglass surface.

Just like you can prime on top of bare metal with regular 2k primer when you are painting a car...and it will work...but long term adhesion is a problem, that's why they make self etching primers. There are reasons certain things are specifically recommended. Especially when it comes to paint/sealers/body stuff.

I hope your liner never fails, and i hope your tank doesn't get ruined...and who knows it probably won't. But that's a situation where it's a risk I am not willing to take. So if someone now wants to seal a fiberglass tank they just got, of course i'm going to recommend NOT using POR15 tank liner. If anyone already has and it's working fine, they are lucky people and there is nothing wrong with that. But this is a case where the company says NOT to use it!

Well said.  And I agree completely.

Any engineer that has seen his product design through to completion/production has learned that a test case of one is inconclusive.  Just because a prototype seems to function, does not prove that you can make 10, 100, 100,000 or a million that will work exactly the same way.
A good mechanic can make almost any machine function as desired by applying his skill.
A good engineer can make a million machines function as desired without requiring such a good mechanic's skill.

POR-15 manufacturer doesn't recommend it's use on Fiberglass, and there are likely good reasons for this.  One possibility, is that there are many formulations generically called "fiberglass", that have widely varying materials used for the resin that holds the glass together.  As noted, chemical bonding has many variables to consider.

During a casual search, I found that Red-Kote won't stick to fiberglass.  FYI
http://seattlecycle.com/red-kotetankliner.aspx

So far, the Caswell and KBS products seem to be the lowest risk choices for fiberglass liners.  Now, I just need to figure a way to protect the unique paint job already applied to the outside of it.


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Offline Steve_K

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2009, 05:13:04 pm »
Benjie at BCR recommended this product for my tank

http://www.hirschauto.com/prodinfo.asp?number=GTS&variation=PINT

I have not brought it yet as I am still mounting the tank.  Any opinions?  I figure he thinks its good for his stuff I should listen.
Steve
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Offline ColinMc

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Re: Fibreglass tanks still safe?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2009, 06:16:24 pm »
That and the Caswell stuff are the two I was thinking of...not RedKote...

I don't have any personal experience but it's supposedly meant exactly for fiberglass or metal tanks and alcohol resistant. I'm sure someone on here has used it?!
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