Topic: CB550E on an 85 Yamaha Tri-Z (electrical/battery issues)

[steadyhaste]

What I've got set up is a 1985 Yamaha Tri-Z 3 wheeler with a Honda CB550E engine on it. It was originally a 250 motor on the Tri-Z, so, a 550 beefs it up quite nicely:) Everything was working good until I made a mistake. I was charging my new battery, and to see if it was charging well, I turned on the bike and tried to start it up with the charger still charging. Now, I can turn the bike on once and that's it. I have to wait about 1/2 hour before I can start the bike up again. My electric start used to work, and now it won't. The kick start works just fine though, but only for one time, then I have to wait at least 1/2 hour until I can start the bike again. When I press the electric start button, it just makes a click/buzz type noise and nothing else happens. Any ideas on what I damaged would be greatly appreciated. I believe the wire harness on the 3 wheeler also came from the CB550 bike, so if there are any items I should test with the multi meter (I've used one plenty since I fix pinball machines and arcade games) that could be helpful as well and I should have the same wire colors as the original bike. Thanks in advance for any help!

Kevin

[TwoTired]

1. measure the battery voltage.
2. make sure the battery is at full charge.
3. Start the bike and measure the battery voltage at Idle, 2000, 3000, 4000, and 5000 RPM.
4. if you have lighting, turn it off and make the measurements again.

If you EVER, reversed the polarity of connections to the bike or battery, most likely you stuffed the rectifier, which will prevent the battery from charging (and possibly discharge it quickly).  You can check the six diodes using a multimeter with a diode test function, each should conduct with only one polarity of the probes.

[gtyler5]

listen to twotired. I am curious why someone would swap out those engines? yes the 550 is a larger engine but the two stroke tri-z 250's were screamers & hella fast.....

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listen to twotired. I am curious why someone would swap out those engines? yes the 550 is a larger engine but the two stroke tri-z 250's were screamers & hella fast.....

When I picked up the bike, I was told that it was to use in a hill climb competition. It's got a much larger gear on the rear axle than the original bike would have had as well. I don't know if that was done on purpose or if it was a must because of the engine swap. There were a few switches added onto the head light assembly as well. One for the fuel pump, and 3 others that were going to control some type of police lighting and a siren that were mounted on the bike to turn on before blasting up the hill. Not my thing but hey, to each his own. Those are all removed now.

I was having a look around the bike before I posted, since I was having trouble with the idle as well. You would have to keep a steady rev. on the bike or it would die. I noticed the fuel filter was in backwards and with no hose clamps on the fuel line in or out of it, and the fuel pump that's on the bike had no hose clamps on it either. Also, out of the 8 hose clamps on the carburetor boots 5 of them were loose. Gee... any problems there? LOL After a quick tightening and adding hose clamps in the proper places, she purrs like a kitten. She was probably sucking in all kinds of air. The overflow tubing was never ran from the carbs. either, so I took care of that as well since there was already a connection on the gas tank for the tubing.

I'll give TwoTired's suggestions a try and see what I can find out from that. I don't think that I switched the polarity on the battery terminals at all, but, it is always a possibility. Also, there is no tachometer on the bike, so I'll have to get one to test at certain rpms. Right now the original tach. cable has the cut off end sticking out of the motor. Nice huh?

The exhaust was straight piped as well, so, any suggestions on what I should do muffler wise would be appreciated as well. It's piped as a 4-2 with 2 running down each side of the frame and up under the rear fender. It's terminated in 2" pipe right now. Damn is it loud!

[CBJoe]

Fuel Pump 

Please....You gotta post some pics of that thing. 

[steadyhaste]

Fuel Pump 

Please....You gotta post some pics of that thing. 

I'll try to get some photos of it up tonight. Maybe something in the pics will solve the problem on it's own and I don't even know it! It's pretty hill-billied up, let me tell you.


UPDATE:

I've got 2 batteries. I checked both of them (off the bike), and they both measured out at just a hair over 10V DC. One of the batteries is brand new, and one is just a generic "motorcycle" battery from Wal-Mart. I'm not sure on the age of it. All of the fluid levels on the new battery are in the middle of the level lines. Out of the fluid levels on the old battery, one is in the middle and 5 are at the top line. I tossed the old battery on the charger and I'll check it in a couple hours to see what comes up as far as voltage. Do I need to get a hydrometer to test each cell for it's specific gravity? Even with concern to the brand new battery?

[TwoTired]

10V is pretty dismal for a 12V battery.   Each cell should be 2.1v at full charge.  So, a rested 12V wet cell battery should read 12.6V.
A battery at 10v could either be really depleted or have a bad cell.  5 cells @ 2.1 V = 10.5 v.

Fill the batteries with distilled water to the lower fill line and put on the charger.   

[steadyhaste]

10V is pretty dismal for a 12V battery.   Each cell should be 2.1v at full charge.  So, a rested 12V wet cell battery should read 12.6V.
A battery at 10v could either be really depleted or have a bad cell.  5 cells @ 2.1 V = 10.5 v.

Fill the batteries with distilled water to the lower fill line and put on the charger.   

I should have some time to work on the battery issue today and I'll update on that soon.

I took some photos of the bike today as well and uploaded them to photo bucket. I see the max attachment size is 256K and 5 per post Here is the link:

http://s1023.photobucket.com/albums/af355/steadyhaste/1985%20Yamaha%20Tri-Z%20with%20a%20Honda%20CB550E%20Engine/

[Gordon]

I took some photos of the bike today as well and uploaded them to photo bucket. I see the max attachment size is 256K and 5 per post Here is the link:

http://s1023.photobucket.com/albums/af355/steadyhaste/1985%20Yamaha%20Tri-Z%20with%20a%20Honda%20CB550E%20Engine/

Just post your pictures directly from your photobucket account using the IMG tag.  Like this:

[CBJoe]

That's way less redneck than I was expecting 

I'd definitely continue with the troubleshooting recommended by TT.  No Point in digging too much further until you know that you're starting off with a good battery. 

Joe

[steadyhaste]

That's way less redneck than I was expecting 

I'd definitely continue with the troubleshooting recommended by TT.  No Point in digging too much further until you know that you're starting off with a good battery. 

Joe

Defiantly. I picked up a testing meter, but the suction tube on the meter is too large for the openings on the battery. I'll have to find some tubing I can slide into the larger tube that will fit into the battery's openings. I did have the new battery on the charger again yesterday, but, no change. They are both at 10V still. I'll see what comes up when I get the tubing to test the battery.

On another note, I noticed one of the boots for the spark plugs was cracked off, so I put a set of 4 new boots on those lines. I've got new plugs to put in as well, since I don't know how old the ones are that are in the engine right now. I'll wait on those until other things are figured out first though.

Eventually, when this thing is running smoothly I'm going to have a spare Tri-Z frame powder coated, with some other parts, after I stretch it out a bit, and switch everything to a "new" frame. I question some of the methods that were used on this frame to stretch it out for the CB550 engine as not being too safe for doing any jumps.

[TwoTired]

If the charger isn't bringing it up past 10v, then either your meter or test technique is faulty, or you have dead cells in the battery(s).

You can check each cell individually, by putting the probe tips into the electrolyte.  ( I usually use jumpers on the probes and a nail as a probe, since it IS acid in the battery).  Anyway, at one end of the battery you need to measure the cell voltage between post and electrolyte probe.

The Hydrometer I have for battery specific gravity testing needs more fluid from the battery than the small motorcycle battery can provide from each cell, even though the tip does reach into the opening.  The MC battery just doesn't provide enough juice for the internal bulb to float.

What size battery do you have for that machine?  Any numbers stamped on it?

[steadyhaste]

If the charger isn't bringing it up past 10v, then either your meter or test technique is faulty, or you have dead cells in the battery(s).

You can check each cell individually, by putting the probe tips into the electrolyte.  ( I usually use jumpers on the probes and a nail as a probe, since it IS acid in the battery).  Anyway, at one end of the battery you need to measure the cell voltage between post and electrolyte probe.

The Hydrometer I have for battery specific gravity testing needs more fluid from the battery than the small motorcycle battery can provide from each cell, even though the tip does reach into the opening.  The MC battery just doesn't provide enough juice for the internal bulb to float.

What size battery do you have for that machine?  Any numbers stamped on it?

I'll check out each cell and see what I get for readings. I wouldn't think that any of them could be bad as seeing its a brand new battery.

The battery is a R12N12A-4A-1.

[TwoTired]

Are you sure your charger is working?  What voltage is it giving the battery?

[steadyhaste]

Are you sure your charger is working?  What voltage is it giving the battery?

Woops! The charger fuse was blown. I wonder how long it's been like that! Stupid oversight. Unfortunately the light saying it's charging still comes on even when the fuse is blown. I'll let this thing charge up now.... The charger is now putting out 12v as it should.

On a side note, I got a new tachometer cable today and the tachometer/speedometer set is on it's way. After this battery is charged up and the tachometer is cabled up, I'll be able to see where this thing is at.

As far as the fuel pump and that control valve that are on this bike, are either of those even necessary? I didn't see anything on a fuel pump in the service or owners manuals.

[TwoTired]

The stock 550 and carbs were gravity fed from a tank higher in elevation to the carbs.
If the level of fuel is below the carbs, you'll need a pump to elevate the fuel.

It may be tricky to get the fuel pressure right, as the stock carbs had tiny spring pins to gently hold the float valves in their seats.  Too much pressure could overcome the spring pins, leading to a higher level in the float bowls than desired (or even over flow).

If the pressure is too high, you may be able to use it in recirculation mode, where it pushes fuel in a loop out to a T fitting at the top of the carbs and the loop then going back to the fuel tank.  The pressure on the spring pins in this mode would be minimal, and the valves could open and take fuel as needed to fill the carb bowls to correct levels.  The pump, however, would run all the time.

Since it is a hill climber, the extreme attitudes and gravitational/acceleration forces during the climb, may require a pump.  I still can envision issues with carb jet starvation when the machine is standing straight up on its hind wheels.  (Probably would be oil pickup tube starvation, too.)

[steadyhaste]

The stock 550 and carbs were gravity fed from a tank higher in elevation to the carbs.
If the level of fuel is below the carbs, you'll need a pump to elevate the fuel.

It may be tricky to get the fuel pressure right, as the stock carbs had tiny spring pins to gently hold the float valves in their seats.  Too much pressure could overcome the spring pins, leading to a higher level in the float bowls than desired (or even over flow).

If the pressure is too high, you may be able to use it in recirculation mode, where it pushes fuel in a loop out to a T fitting at the top of the carbs and the loop then going back to the fuel tank.  The pressure on the spring pins in this mode would be minimal, and the valves could open and take fuel as needed to fill the carb bowls to correct levels.  The pump, however, would run all the time.

Since it is a hill climber, the extreme attitudes and gravitational/acceleration forces during the climb, may require a pump.  I still can envision issues with carb jet starvation when the machine is standing straight up on its hind wheels.  (Probably would be oil pickup tube starvation, too.)

It looks like if the fuel line was ran differently, I might not need the pump at all. But on the other hand, there is the terrain issue that you mentioned. I don't plan on strictly hill climbing with it, though there are plenty of hills on the trails. I don't know if it would cut the engine out or not. I suppose it would be a trial and error on that end. Take it out for a few runs and see what happens with out the pump. If it cuts out, put the pump back on. I can also see the pump burning out due to restriction with the flow valve. The recirculation line sounds like a great idea. I'm a plumber by trade and do hot water recirculation lines all the time, so that's a familiar concept to me. The minimal pressure on the springs would be good as well, like you mentioned.

I've got the battery charging and it's making progress. It's up to 11.6v from the previous 10v.

I'd be willing to bet this thing needs some new filters and an oil change too. You never know what you're going to get when you buy anything mechanical. I just have to laugh when I see some of the things that are done to the EM pinball machines that I restore. Sometimes you just have to wonder where that idea came from!

[steadyhaste]

The stock 550 and carbs were gravity fed from a tank higher in elevation to the carbs.
If the level of fuel is below the carbs, you'll need a pump to elevate the fuel.

It may be tricky to get the fuel pressure right, as the stock carbs had tiny spring pins to gently hold the float valves in their seats.  Too much pressure could overcome the spring pins, leading to a higher level in the float bowls than desired (or even over flow).

If the pressure is too high, you may be able to use it in recirculation mode, where it pushes fuel in a loop out to a T fitting at the top of the carbs and the loop then going back to the fuel tank.  The pressure on the spring pins in this mode would be minimal, and the valves could open and take fuel as needed to fill the carb bowls to correct levels.  The pump, however, would run all the time.

Since it is a hill climber, the extreme attitudes and gravitational/acceleration forces during the climb, may require a pump.  I still can envision issues with carb jet starvation when the machine is standing straight up on its hind wheels.  (Probably would be oil pickup tube starvation, too.)

Here we go! The battery is all charged up and it's up and running great! I hope I liked the video properly in this post.

Now, my question is, what to do about the exhaust. There are no mufflers as they are straight piped. It's terminated in 2" pipe. Are there any kind of mufflers that I can slip on, or will I need to have some type of custom exhaust made up for this bike? Another issue with the way they were piped is that they are below the frame which means I can't really RIDE this thing or I'll crush the pipes when I land or go over a large enough bump. Any suggestions there, or any comments on how it sounds running if there any other issues I should look for? It's cold out today being in the 30's and it fired right up with no problems. My garage is not heated, so I was happy about that.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HsubyTX9M[/youtube]

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[youtube=425,350][/youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8HsubyTX9M

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I'm pretty sure I'm going to rewire that pump so I can eliminate that switch on the headlight assembly too. There should be no reason that the electric start on the handle bars can't turn the pump on and bring power to the rest of the bike at the same time.

[TwoTired]

Be aware that the 550 alternator makes 150 watts and then only at 5000 RPM.  At idle it only makes about 40 Watts.  All the 550s deplete the battery slowly at idle, as it takes about 120 watts to operate a stock 550 with lights on regardless of RPM.
Part of the purpose of the RPM vs Batt voltage test was to see if the alternator is providing power to overcome the electrical load.

I see the dual headlights on your machine and wonder if the 550 alternator can ever keep up with the load.  Any idea what their wattage rating is?  As you have experienced, when the battery depletes enough, the engine dies from lack of spark.

What are your ultimate plans for how this machine will be used?
Why is it you need mufflers?
Why do you need header pipe protection?  Can you limit front fork travel, or fabricate a skid plate that mounts to the frame?

[steadyhaste]

Be aware that the 550 alternator makes 150 watts and then only at 5000 RPM.  At idle it only makes about 40 Watts.  All the 550s deplete the battery slowly at idle, as it takes about 120 watts to operate a stock 550 with lights on regardless of RPM.
Part of the purpose of the RPM vs Batt voltage test was to see if the alternator is providing power to overcome the electrical load.

I see the dual headlights on your machine and wonder if the 550 alternator can ever keep up with the load.  Any idea what their wattage rating is?  As you have experienced, when the battery depletes enough, the engine dies from lack of spark.

What are your ultimate plans for how this machine will be used?
Why is it you need mufflers?
Why do you need header pipe protection?  Can you limit front fork travel, or fabricate a skid plate that mounts to the frame?

Thanks a lot for the information about the alternator. I never would have thought of that. I'd imagine that the guy I got the bike from didn't know this either, as he told me the battery was shot and needed to be replaced. After figuring out the fuse issue in my charger and having both of the batteries all charged up, I can now understand why neither of the batteries would last, seeing as I've just been idling the bike while working on it to check things out. I've got the tachometer/speedometer gages now and can wire that up. Hopefully I'll get around to that this week. Then I can check out the voltages as it's running at certain rpms as you mentioned to me before.

The 2 headlights are stock from the Yamaha Tri-Z. I don't know their rating, but I can surely look that up at some point here to determine their load factor. Other than the headlights though, there are no other electrical loads on this bike, unless the electric start has some load factor when the bike is running. Well, that is until I put the speedometer and tachometer on. I do have a brake light to put on as well, but I cannot imagine that being much of a factor at all.

My ultimate plan for the bike is to learn about working on engines. I've worked on a lot of different projects but never had an interest in engines until I finally got myself an atv. I also plan to do a frame swap and put the bike on a better frame and get parts powder coated and the engine cleaned up real nice to paint. I've been browsing the painting sections of the forums already as well. I'd just like to have a very nice clean new looking 3 wheeler. I've already got an NOS fender set for the bike among other things. I do plan on taking it out on the trails in Wisconsin, and they do require that you have mufflers and spark arrests on any atvs you take out on their trails. Also, there is a place to ride of about 300 acres near me and they require a certain decible level in order to ride there and spark arrests as well.

I wouldn't want to limit the front fork travel. I think that could cause more harm than good when I'm out riding around on rough terrain or making jumps on the bike.

As far as protection for the pipes, I'd rather have as much clearance under the bike frame as possible for hard lands. I'd think it would be easier to fabricate some pipes, or bend what is there with a pipe bender in the shop, than to take several inches off of the ground clearance and add a lot of weight to the bike. I don't think it would be such an issue if I was only planing to go trail riding with it though and not to the tracks.

I was also poking around about the muffler issue and from what I gather, if I get a slip on muffler, I need to recalibrate the carbs so that it keeps the right fuel/air mix and pressures for the motor to run smoothly. Am I correct from that assumption? I believe I saw another one of your posts related to mufflers that they often don't come with any kind of specs. so you have to figure it out when you put them on. Do you have any suggestions for that? I was thinking I would just go with a cherry bomb for now. It's cheap and a quick easy fix. That should get me out and riding while I'm setting up a frame and other parts to get powder coated.

Thanks for all of your input along the way as well. It's always good to learn about new things from some one that knows their stuff, rather than try to hack away at something and end up causing more problems in the end!

[TwoTired]

Some electrical info for you.
The ignition coils draws about 30 watts (stock 550 types)
The alternator draws 30 watts (to make a magnetic field so the stator can make power).
Fuel pump draws some power.
Tail light will have a watt rating.
Headlights will have a watt rating.
Instrument bulbs will have a watt rating.
Stop light will have a watt rating.
Etc.
They all add up to draw power from either battery or alternator output.
The electric start only draws power when engaged (about 120 amps, or 1500 watts).

While the muffler CAN effect the carb jetting, it is usually of secondary concern after the air filter.
The stock jetting was set based on assumptions of what restriction there is to the breathing of the engine.  Generally speaking, if you change the breathing ability of the engine, the carbs cannot automatically adjust.  So, they have to be retuned for the breathing changes made.  Pilot screw setting, slide needle height, and even main jet size may need to be changed to co-ordinate with breathing changes made from stock.  (particularly, those Pod type filters.)
I think you should figure out/finalize the exhaust issues first, and then address the carb jetting.
Unless you have a dyno, you will likely have to learn how to read the spark plug deposits to learn combustion conditions and then adjust fuel mixtures to obtain the proper color deposits.

What do you figure the top speed will be for that bike?  Any info on final drive ratio?
I think I'd be too scared to ride that thing very fast.  Don't they tip over if you brake in turns?  I don't think I've ridden a trike since 1958-ish.