Author Topic: home built adjustable cam sprocket  (Read 5828 times)

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Offline bucky katt

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home built adjustable cam sprocket
« on: December 12, 2009, 02:44:47 AM »
what kind of bit would i use in the drill press (i built a rotary table a while back) to open up the bolt holes on the cam sprocket for my cb750? i have a bunch of sprockets so if i screw one up i wont be too upset about it.
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Offline dave500

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 02:59:21 AM »
i think the standard spocket is cast iron,so a high speed drill bit should do it,if its hardened a more expensive carbide bit is the go,if you can file the sprocket a high speed steel bit will do it.

Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 03:06:25 AM »
cool, thanks for the info. when i pull the valve cover to re-torque head bolts i'll put one in. next question is, with a stock cam, where do i start, advancing or retarding the cam.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline Whaleman

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 05:44:44 AM »
Buck, Do you think you can improve on the original Honda engineering? Do you think that 1 or 2 degrees on a stock cam would be worth the trouble? Thanks, Dan

Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 05:57:18 AM »
well, from what i've read in books as well as on the web (this one included) yes i DO think an improvement can be made, especially is i have the cam i'm trying to find, in hand when i have to take the camcover and cam/holders out to retorque the head.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline Whaleman

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 06:14:38 AM »
Are you trying to tune for low end torque or high RPM roadracing?

Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 06:57:33 AM »
i'm looking for a little less on the bottom end, not so much that it's hard to launch but i'd like to have more power up top.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline Whaleman

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2009, 11:35:11 AM »
Do you actually spend that much time at the top of the RPM range that you are willing to give up the lower end? Do you race?

Offline Gordon

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2009, 11:43:51 AM »
You don't have to race to make good use of more high end torque.  These bikes were made to be good all-around riders.  If you do mostly stop-and-go riding, then you may want more low end torque.  If you do mostly highway riding, then wanting more high end power is perfectly reasonable.   

Offline 754

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2009, 11:46:26 AM »
Stock was built to suit most riders, also higher cost on indexable sprocket.. so.. do it..
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Offline Steve_K

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2009, 06:15:38 AM »
If you are trying to keep the same diameter hole and make a slot in the sprocket I would use an end mill.  You said that you are using a drill press to machine it.  A drill chuck can not hold an end mill safely as the chuck can NOT say tight on the end mill.  Also, drill presses have a taper shank to hold the chuck on.  Vibration will loosen the taper and fall out.  I would use a mill (Bridgeport or similar) to do that job.  The rotary table will work on a mill and you will like the result.
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2009, 06:23:58 AM »
If you are trying to keep the same diameter hole and make a slot in the sprocket I would use an end mill.  You said that you are using a drill press to machine it.  A drill chuck can not hold an end mill safely as the chuck can NOT say tight on the end mill.  Also, drill presses have a taper shank to hold the chuck on.  Vibration will loosen the taper and fall out.  I would use a mill (Bridgeport or similar) to do that job.  The rotary table will work on a mill and you will like the result.
Steve

if i had access to a mill i'd do it in a heartbeat. i guess i'll try it with a hand file and see what happens. i'm a cheap bastid and i dont (and cant) want to spend the money on one already done.
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Offline Bodi

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2009, 06:40:21 AM »
I've used an end mill in a drill press with no problems.
Not all drill presses mount the chuck with a taper shaft, and there's no certainty a taper that's been locked together for years will come loose... milling steel will cause quite a bit of vibration though and the chuck may drop. Big deal, it drops down and stops turning, no disaster.
The side of a drill isn't going to work. It only has two flutes (and thus cutting edges) and the vibration will be terrible, plus the edges are not really very good. You need a proper milling tool, designed to cut with the side flutes. More flutes is better but naturally more expensive.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2009, 08:28:38 AM »
I've had decent results with a 1/4" (6mm) end mill in a drill press (about $6-$7). You can make a "rotary table" for slotting sprockets with a piece of wood or metal dowel, the same size as the shoulder on the cam where the sprocket sits, mounting it into the center of a piece of 2x4 wood about 6" long. Clamp this to the drill table on the dowel, so you can spin the sprocket around it with the hole(s) right under the mill bit.

You'll want to slot it about 5 degress if using a K0-K6 cam, 8 degrees if using an "F" or K7-8 cam. Essentially, Honda dialed back the "K" cam 4 degrees to get the "F" engine, but it was done more to pass the EPA test than for power. They started with the dialed-back sprocket, at the time. When the F2 came out (or thereabouts) the sprocket changed and so did the cam, again, to fit it: the lobes were made steeper to open the valves faster, which ultimately ended up wearing the valve guides faster, too (part of the the F2-onward "valve problems").

Moving a "K" cam back about 4 degrees will add a little extra HP at 8500 RPM: how much HP depends on a lot of other things in the engine. Moving it forward about 3 degrees adds a real nice low-end surge that's useful in city traffic at the cost of a HP or maybe 2 at 8500 RPM. I've found through experimentation that many "F" riders prefer the cam moved forward, probably because that's where they "live" most of the time with the bike. Most riders don't spend a lot of time at 8500 RPM.  :D
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Offline 754

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2009, 10:28:11 AM »
Guys he said he had a rotary table, therefore, he can index off original location , rotate, and put in a fresh drilled hole.

 Someone shoulda told me I cant plunge with a short stub drill, ground flat. :o :o, I just hate finding out it aint possible after I have done it..so many times..

 Hondaman 1/4 inch endmill is about 16 thou bigger than 6mm and bolt generaly has clearance.. My take on it tho, is the sprocket is held concentric by the shoulder on the cam so it should not matter.. except that bigger hole allows a bit of movement, probably only a few minutes..


 On an unrelated note, ever tyry a 4 flute 1/4 inch endmill in a die grinder on aluminum.. ;D
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2009, 08:22:18 PM »
On an unrelated note, ever tyry a 4 flute 1/4 inch endmill in a die grinder on aluminum.. ;D

Just once. I couldn't find the end of the endmill after it broke off and zinged across the shop, though.  I'm really glad it went THAT way and not THIS way. :o
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline 754

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2009, 08:28:59 PM »
I use em once in a while, grabby, but cut fast & clog less. End mills usualy wear the end first and sides are still crisp...
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2009, 09:03:43 PM »
sprocket is pretty soft, a common HS drill will be fine

did it with a simple 35$ press drill and then a hand file, it's been working like a dream for three seasons of all out racing at 12,000 RPM, never had a problem.

just make sure to clean the bolts and threads with some thinner and then apply quite a few drops of blue loctite

that said.... I am not really sure that you'll feel much change with the stock cam which is pretty short duration to begin with.

also, in order to be a little scientific, you'd want to make a full process of cam indexing, starting with stock setup as a baseline and for that you'd have to invest in a dial gauge, there's no other way to do it right. 


Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2009, 10:42:09 PM »
i wont bother with using the adjustable gear until i can find a 77 or 78 750f cam in usable condition
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2009, 05:00:33 AM »
Go for it Bucky - it's worth the trouble on any engine to dial the cam in. The sprockets like T said are quite soft - I think they have surface hardening treatment but not full on hardened material so cut up quite nicely.
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2009, 05:07:00 AM »
as soon as it warms up a little more i'll head out to the shop. no propane for the heater so i dont go into the shop until it's at least 50 out there  :D
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2009, 09:12:18 AM »
I believe I used a rat tail hand file on mine.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2009, 07:26:15 PM »
I believe I used a rat tail hand file on mine.

I've done that, too! Ugly, but effective.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2009, 10:37:31 PM »


Sounds like a lot of work to save $35.00

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Offline Yoshi823

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2009, 03:44:13 AM »
sprocket is pretty soft, a common HS drill will be fine

did it with a simple 35$ press drill and then a hand file, it's been working like a dream for three seasons of all out racing at 12,000 RPM, never had a problem.

just make sure to clean the bolts and threads with some thinner and then apply quite a few drops of blue loctite

that said.... I am not really sure that you'll feel much change with the stock cam which is pretty short duration to begin with.

also, in order to be a little scientific, you'd want to make a full process of cam indexing, starting with stock setup as a baseline and for that you'd have to invest in a dial gauge, there's no other way to do it right. 




A kit like this would be ideal...
http://www.holeshot.com/tools/cam_degreeing_kit.html

I made up my own bits and pieces and plotted a graph of lift against crankshaft rotation. Unfortunately the graph itself did not reproduce too well when I went to put it on to photobucket so I can't show you what I mean. I'll try another way.
Needless to say it was a lot easier to see which way to adjust if I had got that far.But the graph showed that the lobe centre for #1 intake was at about 118 degrees ATDC, with 290 degrees duration and 0.315" lift...about 8mm. This was on my standard F2 cam that was reprofiled for me by a so called cam specialist.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2009, 04:42:37 AM »


Sounds like a lot of work to save $35.00

http://cbrzone.com/sohc.html



No kidding. You will still need a degree wheel, dial indicator and piston stop
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Offline Yoshi823

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Offline gtyler5

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2009, 08:09:46 AM »
what keeps the sprocket from slipping in those slotted holes? yes I know the two tiny bolts that hold it  ;), but just seems that with all the heat vibration spinning ect. that it might slip around?
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2009, 03:55:14 PM »
what keeps the sprocket from slipping in those slotted holes? yes I know the two tiny bolts that hold it  ;), but just seems that with all the heat vibration spinning ect. that it might slip around?

we all trust your gut feelings but the truth is it doesnt slip.




Sounds like a lot of work to save $35.00

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Offline mystic_1

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2009, 04:32:26 PM »
"I did it myself"  = priceless.


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Offline 754

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2009, 07:22:10 PM »
Geez guys, way to discourage guys from doing their own thing.... :(

Hey bucky, if you got a rotary table, you could be drilling discs, I am thinking, and make some bucks..

 speaking of which, that is what I should be doing as well..

 I have to say shipping parts around the country, is not as cheap as it once was...
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline MRieck

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2009, 07:48:45 PM »
Geez guys, way to discourage guys from doing their own thing.... :(

Hey bucky, if you got a rotary table, you could be drilling discs, I am thinking, and make some bucks..

 speaking of which, that is what I should be doing as well..

 I have to say shipping parts around the country, is not as cheap as it once was...
Frank...that's not my purpose at all. The slotted sprocket is new meaning no wear....that's a good thing. Time is money....setting that stuff up is a PITA....espescially a "real" rotary table. I do not know....it just seems like a bunch of BS to me UNLESS someone doesn't make the sprockets. This happened to me the other day with some 1983 GPZ750 sprockets.
  35.00 is probably cheaper than the OEM part now. Why reinvent fire and the wheel? ;)

Here's the big question....is this even for an engine being built right now?? Or is this an exercise??  ::)
« Last Edit: December 17, 2009, 08:00:03 PM by MRieck »
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Offline 754

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2009, 08:08:37 PM »
Dont start on sprocket wear, or you can start looking for NOS or lo miles cranks.. they should have 2wice as much wear as the top sprocket... ;)

 what some dont realize is, some of us like tinkering, even if its an unneeded widget.. working on your own stuff is more fun than work...

 setting up camsprockets on rotary table is pretty simple, redrilling easy, slotting, a bit harder.

 to quote, being able to say you did it yourself.... priceless
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It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Offline rustrocket92

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Re: home built adjustable cam sprocket
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2009, 10:18:29 PM »
i have to agree with 754.
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