Author Topic: Frame mod cb 750  (Read 75653 times)

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2013, 09:20:49 am »
Be mindful that what works on Mikes frame may not be adequate for anyone else........considering that little pussy engine he has.  ;D  ;D

Offline MCRider

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2013, 09:25:39 am »
My thoughts exactly. Tee Hee.   ;)
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2013, 09:40:02 am »
I'm looking for a no-weld method because of cost and not wanting to pull the motor to weld it.  I had my top-end done and now have an indication of a head leak.  As I understand it, any re-build requires a re-torque of the head after 500 miles.  Pulling the engine, again, is almost too much to ask.  IF, in the day, guys cut them out and left it that way, you would think a reasonable "fix" could solve it unless you race or are big on wheelies.  Terry suggested sliders that were of a larger id and split to close the joints.  What if the sliders are also a thicker, stronger material.  Wouldn't that do the job.  KrautKoffin pointed out that there wasn't much interest to build anything because money would not cover parts and labor.  I, for one, would be willing to pay a reasonable price for someone like Frank, or ....., to design and manufacture sliders and plates to do the job.  They know what they're doing.  I don't.
I'd be willing to pay 50 to $75, or whatever, plus freight, for 4 sliders and 2 plates. No reason anyone making something shouldn't make an adequate profit.
Ed Spengeman
Indy
1971 CB750K1 (Stock)
1973 CB350 Twin  (Gone)

Offline KrautKoffin

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2013, 10:01:46 am »
I'm looking for a no-weld method because of cost and not wanting to pull the motor to weld it.  I had my top-end done and now have an indication of a head leak.  As I understand it, any re-build requires a re-torque of the head after 500 miles.  Pulling the engine, again, is almost too much to ask.  IF, in the day, guys cut them out and left it that way, you would think a reasonable "fix" could solve it unless you race or are big on wheelies.  Terry suggested sliders that were of a larger id and split to close the joints.  What if the sliders are also a thicker, stronger material.  Wouldn't that do the job.  KrautKoffin pointed out that there wasn't much interest to build anything because money would not cover parts and labor.  I, for one, would be willing to pay a reasonable price for someone like Frank, or ....., to design and manufacture sliders and plates to do the job.  They know what they're doing.  I don't.
I'd be willing to pay 50 to $75, or whatever, plus freight, for 4 sliders and 2 plates. No reason anyone making something shouldn't make an adequate profit.


You can call me Jordan, and I totally agree. The less times I have to pull a motor the happier and the more I'll spend on this kit.
74 cb550
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2013, 10:19:16 am »
I'm looking for a no-weld method because of cost and not wanting to pull the motor to weld it.  I had my top-end done and now have an indication of a head leak.  As I understand it, any re-build requires a re-torque of the head after 500 miles.  Pulling the engine, again, is almost too much to ask.  IF, in the day, guys cut them out and left it that way, you would think a reasonable "fix" could solve it unless you race or are big on wheelies.  Terry suggested sliders that were of a larger id and split to close the joints.  What if the sliders are also a thicker, stronger material.  Wouldn't that do the job.  KrautKoffin pointed out that there wasn't much interest to build anything because money would not cover parts and labor.  I, for one, would be willing to pay a reasonable price for someone like Frank, or ....., to design and manufacture sliders and plates to do the job.  They know what they're doing.  I don't.
I'd be willing to pay 50 to $75, or whatever, plus freight, for 4 sliders and 2 plates. No reason anyone making something shouldn't make an adequate profit.
Hi Ed:
The Gordon Kit was selling for $250 IIRC, plus labor. The Carpy Kit is probably closer to what you're looking for.
http://www.cb750cafe.com/products-page/frame-adapter-kit/

Make no mistake, I fully agree, stronger is better in all respect. But...

I probably have the most mileage experience running a kit of any design. Least wise no one else has piped up with more. I assure anyone who is concerned that strength is not an issue. If you ride harder and faster than I did in those days, well maybe, you'd notice.

If you get a chance to swing by, I'll show you how it works. Big Jay at APE sold thousands, maybe tens of thousands of the kit I have. He did not report any failures nor have I ever heard of a frame failure, with or without a kit.  Your situ is a perfect example though. You can easily cut the tubes out, retork the head, and install the kit. To do a really neat job, you may have to remove some electrics, reposition the ignition key to the handlebar, remove the carbs, nuisance things like that to make room for the Sawzall.

I bot my K1 from Honda-Triumph of Indy. Have you been in Indy long enough to remember them? 46th and Keystone. Owned by Bill Romer, who never rode a motorcycle in his life. The mechanics got him on one of the Honda 3 wheel ATCs, new at the time and he promptly plowed into the back of his Cadillac. Good Times.

I worked there at the time as well. He didn't want to warranty my leaky head gasket, a big problem with new bikes back then. The mechanic took pity on me and for a 6 pack, pulled my engine, retorked it, reinstalled it, in drag strip type time. And I was fixed. Back in the day when two of us could lift an engine and toss it around.
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Phoenix

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #105 on: November 06, 2013, 03:09:53 pm »
Ron and Jordan, etal
My only problem with the current non-weld methods are that I would just as soon keep my triangle and add sliders and plates.  It was also mentioned that the current sliders have to almost be knocked on with a hammer.  I'd like to be able to get just (2) plates with (4) sliders that slide.  To me that would be the perfect fix.
Ed Spengeman
Indy
1971 CB750K1 (Stock)
1973 CB350 Twin  (Gone)

Offline KrautKoffin

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #106 on: November 06, 2013, 04:20:49 pm »
Ron and Jordan, etal
My only problem with the current non-weld methods are that I would just as soon keep my triangle and add sliders and plates.  It was also mentioned that the current sliders have to almost be knocked on with a hammer.  I'd like to be able to get just (2) plates with (4) sliders that slide.  To me that would be the perfect fix.

Well you and I are in the same boat. I'm in the market for a kit too, I just don't want to give carpy my money :)
74 cb550
I now have Beastie Boys "Sabotage" stuck in my head after seeing your avatar.

Offline Rookster

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #107 on: November 06, 2013, 05:40:30 pm »
You can make your own kit.  The frame rails are 1" OD.  You need steel tube that has an ID of 1.00x".  The plates you can make from flat stock that they sell at Home Depot.  I'm not sure of the wall thickness on the sliders in the Carpy/Ape style kits but you can order 4130 steel tube with an ID of 1.010" or 1.009" from McMaster Carr.  There are a couple of different options but your sliders should be 3-4" in length each.  Cut, drill, bolt and your good to go.

Scott

Offline CB750R

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #108 on: November 06, 2013, 05:55:24 pm »
If you bust out some kits let me know Frank, I think I can make the drive from Vernon to pick a set up!

Offline 754

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #109 on: November 06, 2013, 09:41:29 pm »
Vernon!! Hey get over to BCclassic motorcycles, join up and get to our coffee meetings.
Yeah I better start on these pronto.....
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline CB750R

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #110 on: November 06, 2013, 10:04:04 pm »
Vernon!! Hey get over to BCclassic motorcycles, join up and get to our coffee meetings.
Yeah I better start on these pronto.....

Thanks for the heads up, I'm currently waiting approval!

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #111 on: November 06, 2013, 11:25:52 pm »
Yep, hurry up Frank and make your frame kits, or I will, and I'll patent 'em and sue your arse if you copy mine! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline MRieck

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #112 on: November 07, 2013, 05:10:07 am »
Be mindful that what works on Mikes frame may not be adequate for anyone else........considering that little pussy engine he has.  ;D  ;D
Hey......I resemble that remark. ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2013, 06:28:02 am »
Be mindful that what works on Mikes frame may not be adequate for anyone else........considering that little pussy engine he has.  ;D  ;D
Hey......I resemble that remark. ;D


Whew, I got off lucky. I was worried I might have sacrificed my sponsorship deal for the sake of a joke!

Offline KrautKoffin

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #114 on: November 12, 2013, 10:36:31 am »
So, who is making these kits? I'm pulling my motor in a few days and would like to only have to dick with this one time.
74 cb550
I now have Beastie Boys "Sabotage" stuck in my head after seeing your avatar.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #115 on: November 13, 2013, 11:30:08 pm »
Yeah Frank, what's going on, have you got some kits done yet?  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline 754

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #116 on: November 14, 2013, 06:53:11 am »
They are about 1/2 done..
 A couple prototypes, then I can make more.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline BPellerine

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #117 on: November 14, 2013, 03:05:11 pm »
we are waiting!haha bill
1978 CB 750K ard and webers
another anfob

Offline KrautKoffin

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #118 on: November 14, 2013, 04:14:33 pm »
They are about 1/2 done..
 A couple prototypes, then I can make more.

Frank,
Have I told you lately that I love you?

74 cb550
I now have Beastie Boys "Sabotage" stuck in my head after seeing your avatar.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #119 on: November 15, 2013, 02:43:12 pm »
Geez that really is the voice of desperation, don't let them down Franky! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline calj737

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #120 on: November 15, 2013, 03:04:50 pm »
You can make your own kit.  The frame rails are 1" OD.  You need steel tube that has an ID of 1.00x".  The plates you can make from flat stock that they sell at Home Depot.  I'm not sure of the wall thickness on the sliders in the Carpy/Ape style kits but you can order 4130 steel tube with an ID of 1.010" or 1.009" from McMaster Carr.  There are a couple of different options but your sliders should be 3-4" in length each.  Cut, drill, bolt and your good to go.


Rookster you really ought to go the other way round. Sure, cut the tube, but slide a new tube with a matching ODto the original ID. Use a thicker walled new tube. Allow enough length to slide the tube out and remove. Drill through the end of the original tube beyond the cut, through the new tube, and pin the tube in place. Then clamp a new sleeve over the joint for easy removal while restricting the pin.

This adds strength internally and won't allow any crushing of the factory tube ends.

This may not be the only way to do it, but it's based on an internal plug approach with new external fastening joining original and new tube lengths together. 
'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #121 on: November 15, 2013, 03:14:39 pm »
The problem with that idea (and most of us have had it before) is that the OEM tubing's weld seam protruding inside the tube will not allow you to use an internal slider unless you can somehow grind it out, (difficult, at best) and of course, even if you could, how do you move the internal sliders once they're inside the OEM frame tube? Telekinesis? ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline calj737

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2013, 06:09:23 am »
I wouldn't rely on recommending Telekinesis for any group other Aussies...

Seriously though, my buddy who is a fabricator did this exact method for his friends bike. I was around working on mine so I didn't take pics... But, the original tubes were left long enough toward the rear that when the new internal tubes were slid rearward, it was possibly to extract the internal by pulling forward and "outward". The pins were used to prevent torque/twist.

I will say, since it was not for a bike like mine (550 and 500) that i didn't have the problem to address, I didn't focus on all the details. But I did ask the principles behind why that "approach" to which he answered the strength and rigidity portion of the reply.

If you're knowledge exceeds my observation, please accept my apology and I stand corrected if this is not possible on the OP's frame. My reply was targeted at "installing the new tube outside of the original cut ends" which WILL crush those ends and potentially fail unless a Gordon's style kit is used.

'74 550 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=126401.0
'73 500 Build http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=132935.0

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Rookster

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2013, 08:35:10 am »
Quote
My reply was targeted at "installing the new tube outside of the original cut ends" which WILL crush those ends

How?

There is no clamping force applied to the sliders or the frame tubes. The sliders are a loose interference fit.  What force will crush the frame tubes?

There are 2 things at work here:

1. There is a belief that those frame tubes serve either no purpose or are an integral part of strengthening the backbone/steering head.  If they serve no real world purpose they can be cut and discarded.  Many CB750s have suffered this fate.  If they are an integral part of the frame then the only proper solution is a welded in rigidly bolted replacement like the Gordon style kit.  If you aren't sure if they are useless or crucial maybe a kit like the old APE kit that involved sliders and bolts may be what you need.  None of us have done any real scientific tests on the rigidity of the fame/steering head with or without those tubes so we rely on our opinions and beliefs.

2. I am interested in the old APE style kit and wanted to make my own because the ones for sale seem overpriced.  I also wanted to understand a little more about the length and fitment of the sliders.  I did some very quick research about loose interference fits and talked to MCRider because he uses an old APE kit.  My instructions were a way to build an APE style kit for about $30.  No more/no less.

Scott

Offline KrautKoffin

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Re: Frame mod cb 750
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2013, 10:38:19 am »
Quote
My reply was targeted at "installing the new tube outside of the original cut ends" which WILL crush those ends


2. I am interested in the old APE style kit and wanted to make my own because the ones for sale seem overpriced.  I also wanted to understand a little more about the length and fitment of the sliders.  I did some very quick research about loose interference fits and talked to MCRider because he uses an old APE kit.  My instructions were a way to build an APE style kit for about $30.  No more/no less.

Scott

Scott, put me down for two kits.

- Jordan
74 cb550
I now have Beastie Boys "Sabotage" stuck in my head after seeing your avatar.