Topic: Thoughts on points replacement vs electronic ignition

[Inigo Montoya]

I am not sure how the dyna puts out less spark than points as starting is better and warm up is better and I need less choke and high rpms work better and the engine overall runs smoother. My plugs are cleaner burning and I get better mileage. And this is after setting my points using a dwell meter to get the optimal dwell. While I have not hooked up a volt meter to test voltage, usage suggests the dyna has better spark.

[Roach Carver]

honda man has tested it with all kind of electrical do hickys. If he says its better, then its better. If you read through the post where he was building the original one you will see what I am taking about. one thing I remember is that with points and the hondaman you get a longer (time) arc of electricity. with the dyna it is a much shorter arc time if that makes any sense.

[Inigo Montoya]

I did read it but why then do people experience better warm ups, more power, better fuel mileage, ect? I mean if you add the hm module, then ok but against standard points? I have to take my experience that the dyna is better than standard points. I had points first and they worked fine but the dyna was way better.

[Gordon]

I did read it but why then do people experience better warm ups, more power, better fuel mileage, ect? I mean if you add the hm module, then ok but against standard points? I have to take my experience that the dyna is better than standard points. I had points first and they worked fine but the dyna was way better.

I'm not sure, either.  I have no reason at all to doubt Mark's research and testing because he knows much, much more about these things than I do, but at the same time I can't ignore the immediate and very noticeable effect that the Dyna-S has had on the four different bikes that I've had it on. 

One could say that many times a Dyna ignition is replacing old/worn-out points and condensers, and that may very well be true in a lot of cases, but the points and condensers on my 550 only had about 1000 miles on them and were set properly before the switch to the Dyna.  Nothing else was changed when I made the switch, either.

I wonder if it's a warm-up issue with the condensers themselves?  Is it possible they're contributing to harder starting on a cold engine and longer warm-up times, and that removing them from the equation is what makes for easier cold starting and quicker warm-ups? 

[bucky katt]

after having a dyna-s lose one of the triggers way the hell out in BFE, i started carrying a spare points plate and points cam as a just in case. the next dyna that craps out i'm going back to points and a hondaman ignition.

[dave500]

i went through my collection of breaker plates today,,ive got a few good condition tec ones ,,and a set of non branded ones,which look to have a thinner pressed metal section,(i disected and reassembled a couple),these no names also dont have any washers on the upper or lower part of the action and the contacts look to have a lot less meat,they dont look to be filed or damaged,i wonder if peoples points woes are down to cheap points,,ill bet the contact surface isnt as hard either!im keen to try a honda man on the 550 im slowly getting together,even though i like my boyer,sure on a 35 year old points system like these the advancer wear has to be looked at as well as the rubbing surface which can be polished,ide sooner try and toy with points on the road side than say ,oh well,no spark,thats that,how ever electronics these days are good,mostly.,,as soon as a bad name get around,(lord of darkness)we all steer clear .

[Roach Carver]

I did read it but why then do people experience better warm ups, more power, better fuel mileage, ect? I mean if you add the hm module, then ok but against standard points? I have to take my experience that the dyna is better than standard points. I had points first and they worked fine but the dyna was way better.

This is all my opinion and that is all. You are free to interpret however you choose, but without an actual dyno to test your power claims they are emotional/ seat of the pants and not really verifiable. I would say that the dyna has more precision??... maybe. the amount of voltage can be increased with the dyna, again I think. I think what hondaman claims is that while the voltage is increased the duration of the spark is greatly reduced. Anyway, run whatever you like. odds are that if you take good care of your stuff you will have no problems either way.

[ev0lve]

i wonder if peoples points woes are down to cheap points,

Wish I'd bookmarked it but I seem to remember Hondaman or TwoTired did an analysis of the differences between the cheap and not so cheap points not too long ago. Cheap points lost. Badly.

I'll post the link if I can find it but maybe someone else just knows where it is?

[Deltarider]

Best way to experience an "improved" ignition is to install a fresh set of plugs.

[Jonesy]

honda man has tested it with all kind of electrical do hickys. If he says its better, then its better. If you read through the post where he was building the original one you will see what I am taking about. one thing I remember is that with points and the hondaman you get a longer (time) arc of electricity. with the dyna it is a much shorter arc time if that makes any sense.

As I recall, the Dyna had a very short "on" time, when the circuit to the coil was closed, allowing the electromagnetic field to build in the coils. This would be the "Dwell" referred to in conventional points systems. At idle this isn't a problem as the crank is turning (relatively) slowly, allowing plenty of time for the coils to build a full charge. However, at higher RPM's, the dwell time reduces proportionately with crank speed, not allowing the coils to reach full saturation before discharge, weakening the spark. This is also true to some extent for points, but the nice part about points is that the profile of the breaker cam allows them to stay closed for more degrees of crank rotation. The Dyna rotor only has a tiny button magnet embedded in it, and once it passes the pickup coil, that's it. This makes me wonder if the magnet could be made in a shape that allowed for more time in front of the coil if that could solve the dwell issue...?

[TwoTired]

See:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29545.0

Sorry Jonesy.  Doesn't really jibe (in datail) with your post.

Towards the OP...
I've always been attracted to the dyna or some type of points replacement system.  I never did it because they all cost way more than their worth, and certainly way way more than what they cost to build.  There is a huge profit margin in those devices.  And,I don't like supporting greed.  So, I learned to keep the point system operating as it should.  Adjustment and care is pretty easy, so it is not a bother to me.  I really don't understand the "starts better" claim.  Mine all start just fine with the stock coils and points.

Also, I agree with 71cb750 about claimed power gains.  I'm very skeptical.  I certainly don't trust the butt dyno.  And it is human nature to support their expenditure decisions by noticing all sorts of benefits (real or imagined) afterward, to reassure themselves and remain happy with the expenditure.  It's similar to the placebo effect.  If you "believe" there is a benefit, you will more likely notice one afterwards.

[Simpson]

I've always been attracted to the dyna or some type of points replacement system.  I never did it because they all cost way more than their worth, and certainly way way more than what they cost to build.  There is a huge profit margin in those devices.  And,I don't like supporting greed.  So, I learned to keep the point system operating as it should.  Adjustment and care is pretty easy, so it is not a bother to me.  ...

I really don't understand the "starts better" claim.  Mine all start just fine with the stock coils and points.

You took the words right from my mouth TT. I really don't understand "starts better" or "better gas mileage" claim either.

It just leads me to think the owners who installed them had worn or improperly adjusted points that greatly depreciated the performance of their bikes. Then they install the Dyna and it makes a big difference because the timing issues are resolved.

I'll accept I could be wrong here, especially after never having any personal experience with a Dyna. But when I run the process in my head looking for explanation, it doesn't seem 100%. Hondaman's module for point longevity makes complete sense to me.

Can someone explain how these units help "starts better" and "better gas mileage" over properly adjusted points? I realize the claims from electronic ignition manufactures are "less degrees of variance" when sparking. Is this the entire basis of the argument?

I understand the need for some design changes and updates but I own old bikes to enjoy the challenge of tuning it to perfect original spec. If you want a modern bike, go buy one.  Seems to defeat the purpose of owning a old bike these days.

[Gordon]

My bikes are my main means of transportation, and while I very much enjoy working on and maintaining them, anything that I can do which will make some of the more tedious (in my opinion) tasks less tedious, or non-existent, I will happily do them and will enjoy my bikes all the more because of those changes. 

The fact that this sometimes irks some of the purists who don't like when other sohc4 owners do things to their own bikes even though they can't or don't care to prove to his satisfaction that the change is actually an improvement is just an added benefit.

My experience with the Dyna-S ignition systems I have has been great, and I will happily relay that experience to anybody who asks.     

[Stev-o]

Start a poll on who has what:

-points
-Hondaman ig w/points
-Dyna & other electronic  [My 550F]

Would be interesting to see the percentages.

-Steve

[JBMorse]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful input!
Like I said, I am not even sure my points are bad, I just wanted to freshen some things up before taking off on my trip.  Soon I'll take the bike out of winter storage and begin the freshening, and when I do I'll try to assess the condition of points and condensers.  Right now I am leaning towards simply going with what I have and bringing some extra points. 
I like the old, mechanical nature of points, and I don't think I'll mind adjusting them from time to time.  It may even be a relaxing, meditative task while on a long, intense trip! 
In terms of cost, I am sure the Dyna S is a high profit item for them, but Honda is charging quite a bit for points it seems, and I know those can't cost much to make.  I like the Dyna for its ease of maintenance (or lack of), but from what I am reading here it seems I may not get much better performance than a good points system.
Again I'll have a better idea of what to do when I readjust and assess my current system, but I do appreciate the advice and input so far!   

As far as not using a 35 year old bike, I think there's plenty of evidence on this site that these old bikes are great as tourers.  My poor dad's 05 Triumph America had a CDI failure this year, and that's definitely not something one could fix on the side of the road! 

Thanks,
Jeremy B

[Inigo Montoya]

Well as for starting easier, With points, I would have to crank about a second - 2 seconds maybe 3 if really cold with points, with the dyna, Cold starting as in 40 degrees would be about 1 second if that. Warmer temps and virtually a tap of the button started the bike. This is with NEW points and condensers and plugs. Stock coils, d8ea plugs and new ngk plug caps.
I got about 40 mpg with points and increased to 44 with the dyna, no other changes. The engine also ran smoother. I agree about the butt dyno. Obviously it may just be imagined, but batter starting and mileage are not imagined.
So I experienced these changes just by switching the ignition.

I would have to go with gordon though, this seems to be more about purist than anything. If you want points, then use them. Are they more reliable than the dyna, maybe but maybe not. Do I like my dyna? Absolutely. Can it fail? Yes. But then so can the cam chain. So could the stator. So could the regulator. As others have said, a coil. Point is virtually anything could fail and to condemn a part simply because it is electronic is kinda ironic.

[HondaMan]

I usually run a Maxi-Dwell...uses chevy points. You have to grind a bit of the base off 1 set when replacing. Also has built in timing light & solid state condensers.. about the size of a chicklet.
 When the the day comes, that I am touring in N America, and I can no longer find Chevy points, in the smallest of towns, then I may be ready to quit riding..

 I usually pack a spare Honda points plate, easy to install, and may help another rider out..
 

My ignition would let those Chevy points run forever... 

[754]

The Maxi, is supposed to increase dwell.

 What I see at a glance though is this, The Honda points have a very short lever distance, which means it pivots on a greater arc than a set with further distance, to me that suggests, less rapid wear..  I eventually did change a set in the Maxi, mostly because of the years on them, not how it ran.. they were riveted in, change to screws, I was told to ask for Corvette points, higher spring tension, Blue Streak, I think I put in.

 I am thinking (not an ignition expert), them SBC points open & close quite often in a minute and seem to hold up...

 Back to stock, I recal they usually had a bit of pitting, but often when I checked them, they did not really need adjusting.. 1 or maybe ywice a year.. I usually static timed by eye, and it ran good..

[Jonesy]

See:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29545.0

Sorry Jonesy.  Doesn't really jibe (in datail) with your post.

OK.. I got it backwards RE the "On" vs the "Off" time and its effects. I guess I can't trust my memory anymore...

In terms of cost, I am sure the Dyna S is a high profit item for them, but Honda is charging quite a bit for points it seems, and I know those can't cost much to make. 

True, Honda does seem to have a crazy mark-up on some parts, but one could argue that as with anything made in quantity, the more you make, the less expensive they are. Back in the days when at least a quarter of Honda's bike lineup used the same type of points, I'm sure the cost of points was more reasonable. But now, since no production bikes use points and a sizable percentage of the older bikes are probably scrapped/wrecked/whatever, the demand probably isn't as great.

[bucky katt]

The Maxi, is supposed to increase dwell.


 I am thinking (not an ignition expert), them SBC points open & close quite often in a minute and seem to hold up...

well, on a small block chevy with a single point distributor running at say, 2500 rpms, those points will open and close as often as one of our 4's with 2 sets of points at 10,000 if my brain is working this morning.

[shizzomynizzo]

Do you have any pics of the chevy points set up? I am very interested in how you did it.

[HondaMan]

Do you have any pics of the chevy points set up? I am very interested in how you did it.

The Maxi-dwell was a kit from the 1970s, Shizzy: you might find an old one or maybe NOS one out there somewhere. It was a whole points plate with some electronic condensors (instead of automotive type) and a switch that connected to a little neon bulb behind the plate, for a sort of built-in "timing light" that worked in dim garages (or at night...). You would push the switch to the side being tested, and the 400 volt kivkback from the coils would lightly flash the little neon bulb. Kinda cute, not terribly accurate (the kickback is "late" about 2 degrees in timing). They were impossible to set for equal dwell, though, because of the way the plate was made. So, many users would have to modify the 2-3 points set itself to make them time in correctly. This meant that one side or the other would have less dwell than it was supposed to: the fact that the bikes still ran well with them is a testament to the ignition coils Honda uses.

The main advantage was the current-carrying capability of the automotive points. The bike points are small in contact area and are not made with exotic metals (except TEC points, which have lots of tungsten): the Corvette points (and Blue Streak's points) are silver-impregnated tungsten with sputtered surface finish: points just don't get any better than that!

[IHWillys]

I am not saying this is the case here but one difference between points and electronic ignition that can/will affect ease of starting, power, fuel mileage, etc can be the advance curve.  

With the mechanical setup we have old springs that may not provide the same advance curve as 30 years ago, worn pivot points that allow variable curves, "gummed up" moving parts that alter the curve and response rate outright and even more so across the temperature range, etc.  With an electronic system that controls the curve, these variables are  reduced/removed as factors.  Then we also have the likelihood that the curves are different.  Perhaps the Dyna retards the spark at idle just a bit more or less which results in a perceived increase in ease of starting.  Perhaps the Dyna  produces a slightly more optimized curve through the midrange resulting in an increase in mpg.  Perhaps...

Ken

[Inigo Montoya]

I have seen them on ebay a number of times.

[754]

Good points (intended pun) there Ken..

 Accell also for a short time made a point ignition the 2nd set was  adjustable, same mehod as Honda.... would like to try one of them. The whole seup is fairly easy to make.

 I think because of the times points fell out of favour, as the bog 4 was changing to electronic ignitions, plus they (aftermarket)were advertising them a lot..

 I guess there are 2 camps of SOHCers here, I am in the pointiff group for now.