Topic: Thoughts on points replacement vs electronic ignition

[JBMorse]

Hey everyone,
There has been some discussion lately about where to find quality replacement points.  It seems the only good ones may be NOS type TEC or N/D as discussed here: http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/sohcign.html
which are available from the dealer, David Silver Spares, or ebay.

Here's my dilemma: I am planning my Big Trip for 2010, and was thinking about replacing my points/condensers with new ones before heading out on the road, just to be on the safe side.  I was also planning on carrying an extra set just in case.  But I really don't want to buy crappy points that will burn out and potentially ruin my fun!  The prices I have found for NOS points are not cheap, some approaching the cost of a Dyna S system.  Bike Bandit currently lists the points assembly for my bike at $71.81, or $24 for each side if you just buy the points alone.  Ebay prices for NOS points are around the same.

So would it make sense to just go with the Dyna S and be done with it?  Z1enterprises has the Dyna S for $125.  With the Dyna, I would have one less maintenance issue to worry about while on my Big Trip, but I do like the simplicity and the old-school mechanics of points.  I know a properly set and maintainted points system will operate just fine. 
What would you do? 
And there is a third option: maybe I shouldn't buy new points or a Dyna.  After some searching on this forum it sounds like it takes a long time for Honda points to fail.  Should I just check mine for obvious pitting or adjustability, and if they're okay use them, while carrying a spare set just in case? 
I'm not sure my points are bad, I'm simply trying to limit the possibility of break downs while out on the road.
Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. 
Thanks! 

[shizzomynizzo]

dyna can break down, too. not bad mouthing them, just saying. usually it is when they get a few years old, but can happen.

I myself am going with points. Instead of the oem, I am purchasing two sets of diachi from the local dealer and carrying a spare. Along with a hondaman ignition of course!

Good luck, whatever your decision

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Hey JB,

You'll prolly get a number of opinions here.  Ignition systems are getting to be almost as contentious as the right brand of oil! (7th Gear 10w40 by the way)

Your goal here is reliability, it would seem.  You want a system that isn't going to fail or fall out of adjustment.  Unfortunately, no such system exists though the Dyna is extreamly reliable.  So I think the next feature of your selection should be serviceability at the side of the road with minimal tools.

If you think packing an extra set of points is expensive, think what it would cost to pack an extra Dyna module!  Think also of what tools you would need to install and align a Dyna vs points.

My set up is a fresh set of points with my old set in my tool bag.  I have a HondaMan Ignition Module and simple tools that include a test lamp for static timing.  The HM module significantly reduces the current at the points and thus significantly reduces pitting and the need to adjust them.  If a point set fails, I put on the old set.  If the HM module fails (yea, Right!) then I unplug it and run on traditional points.  I also replaced all the old JIS head screws under the points cover with Allen head cap screws.  I haven't had to crack into my points (other then for a 3K inspection and to lube the follower block) in years!

[jbailey]

If you want to limit your chance of breakdowns on your trip, don't take a 35 year old motorcycle.  I am serious.  Get yourself a bike built for touring and enjoy your trip.  I love old Volkswagens, but would I drive one across country?  NO.  My old Honda is great fun for a nice 100 mile ride in the summer, but when I go travelling I leave the Honda home in the garage where it belongs.

[Roach Carver]

check into the honda man ignition.  As stated before they seem to be highly reliable and fixable if you do happen to get stranded. As far as a having to go buy a new bike, there are MANY MANY people on here who have taken long trips on these old bikes. Andy comes to mind. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Spanner 1]

I think NOS points and condensers and fugeddaboutit........ you can't fix electronic ignitions at the side of the road, unless you carry a spare one ! and the old-fashioned points have proven performance.. ( I know Dyna are reliable too...just not repairable on the go ).....

[BeSeeingYou]

I am with spanner on this one.  Have never had points fail on me.  Sure they will wear out eventually but should last for many thousands of miles.  The Hondaman ignition sounds intriguing and I like the dual nature of it.  To rely on a Dyna S type no thanks.  My luck with marine outboard motors back in the early 90's with electronic ignition was so poor that I finally sold my motor and bought an old 74 Merc with points ignition. I guess that's colored my perception. 

[GammaFlat]

I've done plain points, Dyna-S and the HondaMan ignition.  I'm sold (HondaMan ignition).  The HondaMan ignition gets you the "duality" of a) tuned up pseudo electronic ignition and b) plain points in a couple minutes should you need or want to switch back.  As mentioned, the cool part of the HM ignition is that the points (although still used in that configuration) won't wear out or need to be set pretty much for perpetuity. 

Besides all that, Mark's a great guy to deal with. 

I will say that my Dyna-S has treated me pretty well.  At one point, I had 2 cylinders not firing due to the distance between the pickup and magnet (? "hall effect" components).  I had too large of a gap I think.   Other than that, the bike ran better cold, started easier, idled better and felt peppier (at lower RPMs) than plain points.  I firmly believe the Dyna-S gives you benefits over points but my experience/evidence is anecdotal and people that argue that they can tune points to perform similarly might have a point . 

[Jonesy]

I used to preach the Dyna-S gospel until mine went bad on me this summer. It was awesome while it worked, as I too noticed smoother running and faster warm-up. I could just have the oddball one that failed, as my wife's 550 still runs fine with the Dyna, but she rides less than I do. Who knows..

I went back to the stock points. I was able to purchase the entire OEM Honda TEC points assembly (both sets of points, mounting plate, condensers, wire and grommet) for $56 at my local dealer. I also swapped out the Phillips mounting screws for Allen head ones, as Old School did. With a bit of patience, you can get the stock points to perform just as well as an electronic setup.

The feature I like about the HondaMan setup is if the electronic unit ever fails, you can simply flip a switch and run with the stock points, as if the electronic module wasn't even there.

[Inigo Montoya]

I dont think points will ever give the performance of a dyna S, not with out either a relay or the hm kit. Have I had points fail, no but then I have never had a failure with the dyna either. I do like the better starting and burning that the dyna gives. Of course I kept my old points just in case but there comes a time when you have to decide if you need to worry about the part or not.
The points I had came from www.partsnmore.com and worked flawlessly. My motor is stock.
One other thing to consider is how handy you are at adjusting points. Many people seem to have difficulty in figuring out how to set them right.

[shizzomynizzo]

POINTS DID FAIL ON ME!!!

I bought a set of diachi from the local dealer. Did a full tune up. drove it over 2k in a couple months and felt confident that I could take it up north no problems.

On the way back (200 miles away from home) my bike sputtered and would not go over 3500 rpms
turned out one of the rub blocks broke off and it was only running on 2 cylinders.

I left the bike in someone's barn, as it was raining and couldn't stay out in the rain all day toying with it. I drove home on the back of my dad's harley, and still here about it all the time... "hey don't park that thing at the end of the drive, the garbage men may pick it up"

A second set is now under my seat 

[dave500]

ive had a boyer ignition for 3 years and its great,ive got two strobe lights and the timing is spot on between 1/4 and 2/3,you cant tweak the curve though as its all done in the black box,,it does run better than points,which i can set up well,even with a hondaman the rubbing block does wear.,how many bikes do you see stuck on the road side with ignition failure?look at all the older dirt bikes with no points,charging through water up to the head!sure you can fiddle points on the road side and carry spare condensors,if you really worry about a dyna dying,stay with the points.

[Deltarider]

If you want to limit your chance of breakdowns on your trip, don't take a 35 year old motorcycle.  I am serious.

Call me an adventurer, but after 30 years with my bike, I know it so well, I don't hesitate to use it for long holidaytrips. Besides, I don't have another motorbike. Never needed one. The 500 never let me stranded other than two punctures. Even when I ran out of gaz (more than twice), I only had to lie it on it's left side for a moment to have an extra half a liter. Try that with a weighty bike like the Goldwing 1100 Interstate I had to buy in Edmonton, Canada (1989). I had to buy, because we rode two-up with a load of luggage. If I was alone, even today, I would try to find an old 500 or 550 (GS550 isn't bad either). They're robust, utterly reliable and... I know them.
If you think a newer bike is a guarantee, maybe you should talk with an AA-assistant.

[Whaleman]

I use NOS Honda points plates from Ebay. You can buy the whole plate right now for $55. That said, I still carry an extra set of points on longer trips. I have been carrying this same set for over 20 years and they still have a little paper in each set of points. I have never needed them. Dan

[55fbomb]

i have had a point go out on me too, i was only a couple miles from home luckily, but it still happened.  i have since went to a dyna.  what are these hondaman ignitions?  i think i would like to try one in one of my other engines.  further more, if your 1 or 2 year old dyna is an area of concern, what about those 30 some year old coils?  i dropped one of them this year, and if your gonna take a couple spare coils, what about tubes and tires, well im getttin ridiculous now but, i just think there is a hundred and one things that can make you break down and if you take spare points with you, one of your coils will go bad, lol.  with this old stuff, there is a chance your gonna break down, but i honeslty dont think any more of a chance than with a new bike, anything can happen, we all know that.  i say pick a setup that you trust, and go for it man.

[Whaleman]

Two little points easier to carry than coils. Dan

[MötleyRöx]

Two little points easier to carry than coils. Dan

Both systems require coils.  What is your point?  Get it, point(s)?   

[HondaMan]

what are these hondaman ignitions?  i think i would like to try one in one of my other engines. 

Look here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=54253.0

I developed these after my Dynas failed (all of them). The whole chronology is here at SOHC4 in archives: search for "transistorized ignition" and look back into 2005 and 2006, as I developed them first for the SOHC4. Now they fit most bikes and are sold all over the world. They are about to become replacement units for the electronic ones found in the CB650 and the DOHC4 750, too (just some more testing and we'll know for sure).

During the development phase I found that the Dyna "S" triggers produce less spark than points, and that my ignition made the points perform a little better than stock. Now, 3+ years later, we are seeing that the points never wear at all with this unit: the original wisdom was that the rubbing blocks would wear - they don't, outside of the Daiichi points. (And those haven't shown wear so much as they have been simply breaking off at the sharp angle, a poor design from China. Shizzymoto experienced this most recently.) The Daiichi are also exceedingly difficult to set properly, as their geometry is not correct. TEC, ND and Hitachi are worth the money, and one of my ignitions makes them last longer than the coils probably will: I'm on the 4th year with the prototype, now, and the points show no wear or timing shift at all.

These Ignitions help support this SOHC4 site, too, with $1 from each one going back to here for all of us! 

[Simpson]

If you use only Honda parts, maintain your bike well, and ride responsibly then I think you should have little to worry.
Honda points work fine.

[Simpson]

what are these hondaman ignitions?  i think i would like to try one in one of my other engines. 

Look here: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=54253.0

I developed these after my Dynas failed (all of them). The whole chronology is here at SOHC4 in archives: search for "transistorized ignition" and look back into 2005 and 2006, as I developed them first for the SOHC4. Now they fit most bikes and are sold all over the world. They are about to become replacement units for the electronic ones found in the CB650 and the DOHC4 750, too (just some more testing and we'll know for sure).

During the development phase I found that the Dyna "S" triggers produce less spark than points, and that my ignition made the points perform a little better than stock. Now, 3+ years later, we are seeing that the points never wear at all with this unit: the original wisdom was that the rubbing blocks would wear - they don't, outside of the Daiichi points. (And those haven't shown wear so much as they have been simply breaking off at the sharp angle, a poor design from China. Shizzymoto experienced this most recently.) The Daiichi are also exceedingly difficult to set properly, as their geometry is not correct. TEC, ND and Hitachi are worth the money, and one of my ignitions makes them last longer than the coils probably will: I'm on the 4th year with the prototype, now, and the points show no wear or timing shift at all.

These Ignitions help support this SOHC4 site, too, with $1 from each one going back to here for all of us! 

Hmmm, an excellent "point". 

[andy750]

If you want to limit your chance of breakdowns on your trip, don't take a 35 year old motorcycle.  I am serious.  Get yourself a bike built for touring and enjoy your trip.....

I need to disagree with this....ANY bike can be used for touring and its been proven time and time again. ANY bike (from mopeds to sportsbikes have gone RTW). Check out RTWDoug on ADV riders forum who took his 1948 Indian around the world. Its all a matter of comfort and how well your bike has been maintained. That and a sense of adventure ;-)

But getting back to the SOHC bike...the CB750 has gone to Alaska and back, its gone around the world (Finnish guy in the 70`s did it) and I have taken mine to 15 countries so far -combined mileage (on same 1974 CB750 as seen in my avatar) ~40,000 miles/8 years. All of this on the same DYNA S ignition. Thats my experience. Lucky I guess.

For my next long trip (RTW 2011) Ill be taking a spare Dyna S just in case 

cheers
Andy

[55fbomb]

thanks honda man, i will read into that.

Two little points easier to carry than coils. Dan    yeah, no kiddin, my point is if you take all this spare #$%*, something else will go bad, thats just the way it is,  if your gonna take enough spare parts to replace everything that might go wrong, maybe you should get a side car with a flat deck and take a spare motorcycle with ya. 

[55fbomb]

hondaman, just outta curiosity, im running Dohc coils with accel car wires and no resistor caps, which one would you reccomend for this setup? 

[Stev-o]

I recently switcheded to Dyna, I just did not want to deal w/points.

Although I don't plan to take any long trips on my 550F, I did take a 3,000 mile journey several years ago on a
Kaw 1000. Never had to think about checking/adjusting points since it had electronic ignition.

-Steve

[754]

I usually run a Maxi-Dwell...uses chevy points. You have to grind a bit of the base off 1 set when replacing. Also has built in timing light & solid state condensers.. about the size of a chicklet.
 When the the day comes, that I am touring in N America, and I can no longer find Chevy points, in the smallest of towns, then I may be ready to quit riding..

 I usually pack a spare Honda points plate, easy to install, and may help another rider out..