Topic: Starter clutch and kick start problems?

[Coulisnosaj]

1. 1978 CB 836: It sounds like the starter is spinning but not engaged, happens intermittently, but it has gotten progressively worse. Assuming it's the fly wheel not catching or the internal clutch on the starter is bad?

Part 2. Kick start takes about 10-15 kicks to start her, and I'm not a small guy (220 and 6') and I have another CB750 and it kicks once or twice. The only difference in the bikes is the the big bore, and cam...would that effect the kick? seem very odd to me.   

[mystic_1]

Part 1:  The starter clutch is mounted behind the alternator rotor, on the end of the crank.  Not uncommon for one or more of the spring rollers to become stuck.  You'll have to pull the alternator cover to check it, the starter gear behind the rotor should turn only in one direction.  Full disassembly will require a rotor puller.

Part 2:  How's the bike jetted?  Is the choke operating properly?

mystic_1

[Coulisnosaj]

There CRs carbs with what whatever jets come with them....Choke was on this morning, only reason I try was the starter wasn't working but since I had the engine build it never kicks over easy, sometimes it's 25+ kicks, man that's tiresome.

[mystic_1]

I'd suggest a full tune-up including carb sync and checking the mixture.

mystic_1

[MCRider]

Following up on Mystic #1. If the starter isn't engaging, the spring/cup/roller triad (3 sets) need to be replaced, period  (pretty much) ASs said, they are inside the starter clutch, behind the rotor. Remove the alternator cover, pull the rotor with a puller, which is a hardened bolt type puller. Get your hands on one before starting the project.

Downhill from there. They just fall out of the clutch, slipped 3 sets back in and reassemble.

I suppose one could be stuck, but I vote for replacing them all. The more you try the worse it will get.

As far as starting the engine, that's a tune problem seems to me. The kicker should start right up first kick. (If not stone cold, then maybe a few)  Mine always did. 836 and 888cc.

PS: I just reread your posts, you have CR carbs, lucky you, but my vote is they need some fine tuning. Slow speed jets, idle air screws (if they have those)

[Coulisnosaj]

I'd suggest a full tune-up including carb sync and checking the mixture.

mystic_1

Really, when the starter was working she starts right up and purrs really nice...and like I said she's been like this from day one, with a carb sync and tune up I never could get her to kick over easy, I didn't care to much when the starter worked, now I'm baffled.   

[mystic_1]

when the starter was working she starts right up and purrs really nice

OK, didn't get that info from your previous posts.

So, do you think it's a problem with not being able to get the crank spinning fast enough with the kicker?  What's your compression like?

mystic_1

[Coulisnosaj]

the actual compression ratio, dunno but there wiseco pistons. The force to turn her over is much harder than the stock CB750 I have, not sure if that's because of the larger piston and cam but the engine definitely turns over and I hear and feel the air compress in the cylinders.

[MCRider]

the actual compression ratio, dunno but there wiseco pistons. The force to turn her over is much harder than the stock CB750 I have, not sure if that's because of the larger piston and cam but the engine definitely turns over and I hear and feel the air compress in the cylinders.

Very often the actual force required to turn it over is less on a hotted up motor. If the cam has more overlap, the valves are open for longer, and reduces the kicking effort. Though the ultimate PSI read in a gauge could/should be higher.

Not always, just often, and maybe not in your case. Depends on the cam.

Obviously the hotter motor must be harder to kick at some point, or people wouldn't have broken kick start shafts. I always thought it was the way hotter ones, like 1000s with monster cams and mistuned/ hard to tune carburetors that kicked back.

WTHDIK?

No help, just talking.

[Coulisnosaj]

pretty much what the others said. check all wiring connections and do a tuneup. mine kicked over in one kick the other night when it was 33 degrees. it was on the choke less than a minute too.

your not listening, it's a not tune up or wiring connection, the engine has been like that from day one of the build. The motor runs flawlessly, except now the starter clutch is shot and I can only assume this is because the compression, apparently it's so great that the make's it super hard to kick over...to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I broke my kick stand the other day trying to start her lol.

[MCRider]

pretty much what the others said. check all wiring connections and do a tuneup. mine kicked over in one kick the other night when it was 33 degrees. it was on the choke less than a minute too.

your not listening, it's a not tune up or wiring connection, the engine has been like that from day one of the build. The motor runs flawlessly, except now the starter clutch is shot and I can only assume this is because the compression, apparently it's so great that the make's it super hard to kick over...to give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I broke my kick stand the other day trying to start her lol.

Could be... but just remember you're not the first one to ever have a high compression CB750 engine. Spring/caps/rollers puke on stock engines, so your compression may not be the prime reason your starter "clutch" is slipping. (Its not likely the "clutch" itself much more likely its the springs/caps/rollers. I've never seen the clutch itself fail.)

If its truly your "compression" making it hard to kick, you'll either have to rebuild the engine with less compression, or live with it.

Maybe the electric starter was having more trouble starting it than you think.

[Spanner 1]

 A reply from OP that says ' your not listening ' is rude and brattish. Hey you answered your own question several posts back...'always was hard to start with the kicker '. Yep, higher compression and cyl. volume is harder to kick-over and , more importantly, wont turn as many firing cycles as a stock motor, so it's 'on the cusp' for being able to fire and CATCH enough firings to have it pick-up and run..... tired of kicking?, then bump-start it down a hill!!

[Coulisnosaj]

A reply from OP that says ' your not listening ' is rude and brattish. Hey you answered your own question several posts back...'always was hard to start with the kicker '. Yep, higher compression and cyl. volume is harder to kick-over and , more importantly, wont turn as many firing cycles as a stock motor, so it's 'on the cusp' for being able to fire and CATCH enough firings to have it pick-up and run..... tired of kicking?, then bump-start it down a hill!!

sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone....I was simply reiterating for the 2nd time that it was not cause by a need for a tune up...what's funny is I thought that was the issue from the get go but others claimed that 836 wouldn't cause that, assuming there's different rates of compression for 836, now i know....as for the starter issue, it's definitely the springs that are warn out or gunt up.    THANKS Y'ALL FOR YOUR ADVICE AND TIPS!!!

[KB02]

I've got the same issue on my 750. I'm waiting for the replacement parts to arrive. By the way, there are three flat screws that hold the assembly together. They are no longer available from Honda.

When your starter worked (s), how long does the engine spin before popping off?

Makes me wonder if you have the 12:1 compression 836 kit in there. Sounds like you are I are about the same size. I've got the cycle-x 850 kit in mine with 10.5:1 compression. It takes most of me to kick it over, but it starts in just a few.

Are you twisting the throttle at all when you start it with the button? Are you doing the same (yes or no) when you start with the kick?

Is it the bike in your avatar? Any bigger pics? 

[MCRider]

I've got the same issue on my 750. I'm waiting for the replacement parts to arrive. By the way, there are three flat screws that hold the assembly together. They are no longer available from Honda.

When your starter worked (s), how long does the engine spin before popping off?

Makes me wonder if you have the 12:1 compression 836 kit in there. Sounds like you are I are about the same size. I've got the cycle-x 850 kit in mine with 10.5:1 compression. It takes most of me to kick it over, but it starts in just a few.

Are you twisting the throttle at all when you start it with the button? Are you doing the same (yes or no) when you start with the kick?

Is it the bike in your avatar? Any bigger pics? 

You do not have to remove those screws to replace the springs/cups/rollers. They just fall out once the rotor/clutch assy is removed from the crank.

[Yoshi823]

When I did the big-bore on my 750, as well as other big bore/rebore jobs on my engines, I always gave it some mileage so's to loosen off the bore/honing job. After a number of miles I would change the oil & filter & then begin to feel the reduced friction after the initial run-in period.
So my question would be...how many miles on the rebuilt engine?

[Coulisnosaj]

I've got the same issue on my 750. I'm waiting for the replacement parts to arrive. By the way, there are three flat screws that hold the assembly together. They are no longer available from Honda.

When your starter worked (s), how long does the engine spin before popping off? hmmm, good question - at least few clicks,when she's cold

Makes me wonder if you have the 12:1 compression 836 kit in there. Sounds like you are I are about the same size. I've got the cycle-x 850 kit in mine with 10.5:1 compression. It takes most of me to kick it over, but it starts in just a few. could be but I can't imagine a 836 would be that high, most likely 10 something.

Are you twisting the throttle at all when you start it with the button? Are you doing the same (yes or no) when you start with the kick?
if it's cold I twist the throttle 3 times and then it hit the button, with the choke on and it starts right up, when kicking I do the same

Is it the bike in your avatar? Any bigger pics?  yes, I'll try and uploaded some today[/font]

[KB02]

I've got the same issue on my 750. I'm waiting for the replacement parts to arrive. By the way, there are three flat screws that hold the assembly together. They are no longer available from Honda.

When your starter worked (s), how long does the engine spin before popping off?

Makes me wonder if you have the 12:1 compression 836 kit in there. Sounds like you are I are about the same size. I've got the cycle-x 850 kit in mine with 10.5:1 compression. It takes most of me to kick it over, but it starts in just a few.

Are you twisting the throttle at all when you start it with the button? Are you doing the same (yes or no) when you start with the kick?

Is it the bike in your avatar? Any bigger pics? 

You do not have to remove those screws to replace the springs/cups/rollers. They just fall out once the rotor/clutch assy is removed from the crank.

Started a hijack thread:
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=63779.0