Author Topic: So it's global warming is it ?  (Read 13005 times)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #100 on: January 14, 2010, 11:03:47 AM »
So how about the American Institute of Biological Science's "version of the truth":

Quote from: American Institue of Biological Science
The FY 2010 request for the NSF’s Research and Related Activities (R&RA) accounts is $5.733 billion, an increase of $550.14 million (10.6 percent) from the FY 2009 request of $5.183 billion. This planned new investment in R&RA programs is intended to reflect the President’s priorities for science and innovation with a focus on high-risk, transformative research; new faculty and young investigator support; graduate research fellowships; and support for research on global climate change.
source: http://www.aibs.org/public-policy-reports/2009_05_26.html



I'm sorry, Soichiro. This just isn't the way it works. Most groups of scientists being published on these matters (global climate change) are backed financially by one group or another. They are paid to prove something these groups want, whether for or against the idea of human-created-global-climate-change.

/edit: crap, I said I wasn't going to post anymore in this thread.

Hopefully you dont really believe that Mark as its simply not true. Sochiros version is much closer to the truth. 

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Andy



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Offline mlinder

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2010, 11:10:50 AM »
Yep, I'm done with this thread :)
Had a good phone call with Paul. :P
No.


Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2010, 11:13:21 AM »
Ok Ed so what? Its a GOOD thing science is getting better funding (well good for me at least since I am submitting a grant in 2 weeks ;-))

Anyway the NSF is a HUGE organisation (along with the NIH) that funds a LOT of science. Here is the NSF breakdown of those stimulus funds:

National Science Foundation ($3.02 billion)

    * $3.02B for NSF.
          o $2.5B for Research and Related Activities
                + $300M of the $2.5B for Major Research Instrumentation Program
                + $200M of the $2.5B  for academic research facilities modernization
          o $100M for Education and Human Resources
          o $2M for the Office of Inspector General

(ref:http://www.tiaonline.org/gov_affairs/stimulus_package/whats_in_the_bill/funding_breakdown/funding_breakdown-Research_and_Development.cfm)

Basically, they are looking for more translational research i.e. bench to bedside type -stuff. Focusing more on clinical-benefiting science at the expense of basic science. Short terms goals over long term basic science research.

Mark - so by saying that the US government funds most of the research in the US prove your argument? No of course not. Science is not working the way you think it does. Sorry.

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Offline paulages

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2010, 11:18:10 AM »
Now that I think about it Itotally remember the blazing issue of global warming in the last election... god, guns, gays and global warming.  ::)
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2010, 11:21:52 AM »
So what?  Where's the evidence that would justify spending EVEN MORE money on research that hasn't proved anything yet?  How many times do you have to investigate the same dubious issue before you stumble on an unscrupulous lab that wants to guarantee they get more funding by "discovering" something that "reflects President's priorities"?

Why is Al Gore a billionaire again?

Ok Ed so what? Its a GOOD thing science is getting better funding (well good for me at least since I am submitting a grant in 2 weeks ;-))


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Offline my78k

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2010, 01:02:50 PM »
Well I guess this thread will have to fill the void until another comes along?!?!? Quick someone change the topic to health care reform or welfare....oh wait never mind that probably wouldn't work either!

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2010, 01:25:45 PM »
So because we do not know how warp drive works, we should stop researching it!

Offline Joel

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2010, 01:41:14 PM »
First; coal fired power stations do NOT send 60 to 70% of the energy up the chimney. The boilers of modern power station are 96% efficient and the exhaust heat is captured by the ‘economisers’ and ‘pre-heaters’ which pre-heat the air and water going into the boilers. The very slight amount exiting the stack is moist as in condensation and CO2. There is virtually no fly ash because this is removed by the ‘precipitators’ and/or ‘bagging plant’ which are 99.98% efficient. The 4% heat lost, is through boiler wall convection. Coal fired Power Stations are highly efficient with very little heat loss and can generate massive amount of energy for our needs. They can generate power at an efficiency of less than 10,000 b.t.u. per kilowatt and cost-wise, this is very low. The percentage cost of mining and freight is very low. The total cost of fuel is 8% of total generation cost and does NOT constitute a major production cost.

Shouldn't that be kilowatt-hour?

Assuming it should be, the overall efficiency of the plant is about 34%.
10,000 btu = 10.55 MJ; 1 kWh = 3.6 MJ; 3.6 MJ out / 10.55 MJ in
Thus, over 60% is going up and out the chimney.

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2010, 03:02:39 PM »
That whole "clean coal" post sounded like propaganda for the coal lobby and it is just not true, and i am not surprised it was written in Australia, we have massive coal deposits and that industry has a lot to loose.
Quote
Paul, thats the problem. The data available  in no way shows climate change to be out of the ordinary.
Wrong again. The rate of change in the climate is happening faster than any other time in our history, we have always had periods of hot and cold in Earths history but the changes never happened as fast as they are now. There are companies on both sides that are funding propaganda thinly disguised as research but the vast majority of scientists think and act independently of this situation, some people really would like to know whats going on, to simply be dismissive of this situation could be catastrophic.

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2010, 03:22:26 PM »
well let me just give you a personal fact here in Floyd county, deforested in the 30's and now a hell of
a lot of forest. Take your pick in the uS and you'll find the same. Trees grow back. Now back to your tree hugging.

ah leive in oreegun. we aint never heard of tree plantashuns in thees parts...

...logging some trees and replanting is not "deforestation." clearing a forest for a soybean field, cattle ranch, or strip mall is.

natural regeneration is the best. poplar for instance will regenerate from the stump so fast it's amazing.
Oaks the same, pines have so many seeds on the ground that a clear cut will sprout back amazingly fast.
Your last clear cut for strip mall answer is spot on however, that is the problem. To much land going into
industrial/urban use. You know logging operations get a lot of heat for erosion. Another falsehood.
Logging at one time did produce erosion beyond the norm (yep, erosion is normal) but now a days all logging
practices follow best management practices (bmp's) to control run off. And out there in Oregon I've seen pictures of
some of the best water bars that can be built.
It is true one of the biggest (if not the biggest) producer of erosion is agricultural practices but, I think that is
true of old agricultural practices involving discing and plowing. Now a days with all the no till practices and a recongnition that
some lands should either be permanent grass lands or forest lands has reduced the erosion produced by agriculture.
So that brings us to the big culpret in erosion, industrial and urban development. I think all people who work in
cities should be housed in city high rises.  ;) In fact, "Brave New World" setting comes to mind.  ;)

Back to carbon reduction. Have you ever seen a study which proves a soybean field filters less carbon than a forest.
Since most crops are planted in rotation with cover crops through the winter that remain green I wonder?

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2010, 04:23:39 PM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P

What scientists where those?  I sure don't remember any reputable ones predicting the end of the world in 2000.  There was plenty of noise from the wacky fringe conspiracy types.  If you have so little regard for scientific knowledge I guess ridiculously simplistic generalizations have a certain appeal.

Offline seaweb11

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2010, 04:53:29 PM »
I just watched a seal eat a fish.

That ass stats, and you can't refute ass stats ;D

Offline CaféElite

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2010, 05:01:59 PM »
Rocking-M beat me to the deforestation subject so I wont get longed it on it.

I do get cracked up when people freak out over logging (atleast managed well) though. I just tell them to do a little research on Native americans and how they used to burn miles and miles of forest to create paths for buffalo or plant crops. Like mentioned before it becomes an issue when some prevents forest from growing back or areas for wild life to migrate.

http://www.britannica.com/bps/additionalcontent/18/4716564/THE-HISTORY-OF-DEFORESTATION
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #113 on: January 14, 2010, 08:51:16 PM »


Why is Al Gore a billionaire again?

Ok Ed so what? Its a GOOD thing science is getting better funding (well good for me at least since I am submitting a grant in 2 weeks ;-))



    Ahh........because he is not.  While I am not privy to Al's financial statement I did see Forbes set his net worth around 100 million in 2008.  It did state that he increased his net worth from 2 or 3 million in 2001 to the previously stated amount by 2008.  In that time frame he signed on early as an adviser to Google and is on the board of Apple, made a movie, won a couple of awards.  That may explain some of this increase.  Now I know he invests heavily in green energy technology and other tech companies but as a private citizen that is his right.  It seems he has been a very successful capitalist, I would think you would admire that.  
     So I have to bring up another point.  What has Al Gore's net worth have to do with the cause and affect of Global Climate Change?  It is not the first time I have run into this.  A few months ago in a "discussion" on climate issues an aquaintence of the right wing persuasion capped off her whole argument with the false statement, "Well Al Gore made 100 million dollars last year".  She did it with this "so there" flourish like it was the icing on the cake that proved her whole argument. ???  

Or is this fixation on Al Gore because in some way he causes Global Climate Change? ;D


    
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 10:52:04 PM by srust58 »

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2010, 03:43:03 AM »
Ah, scientists. The same guys who told us that if we didn't eat oat bran (remember that?) for breakfast, lunch and dinner we'd all succumb to cancer, and that the world would most probably end in 2000. (Y2K, OK?) It's really no wonder we beat them up when they were just nerdy kids at school..............

I'm sorry, I'm just cranky that I had to mow my lawn..............  :P

What scientists where those?  I sure don't remember any reputable ones predicting the end of the world in 2000.  There was plenty of noise from the wacky fringe conspiracy types.  If you have so little regard for scientific knowledge I guess ridiculously simplistic generalizations have a certain appeal.

Sorry mate, I didn't catch their names, but if you can give me a list of all the "reputable" scientists that you know personally, then I'll check it out and get back to you. Er, any idea how I can tell the "reputable" scientists from the "wacky fringe types"?

I mean, Albert Einstein looked pretty wacky, as did Julius Sumner Miller, and other "reputable" scientists of the day criticized their theories, so how do you determine who's wacky and who's reputable? Could it be something to do with your political persuasion? After all, you do seem somewhat stricken with Al Gore, even though some "reputable" scientific folk consider him a self-promoting fraud who jumped on the green band wagon only when he realised that his political career was over? Anyway, send me that list and I'll get to work! ;D 
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2010, 03:52:44 AM »
Nope.  I can't say I admire Al Gore in any way.

See, Gore is not "a private citizen".  He has abused his influence as a former vice president, senator, and congressman to manipulate government and public opinion for his own financial gain.

Al Gore is a sneak who has manipulated the public through deception.  He even pushes his false "green" agenda on children through his influence over the Department of Education when he was a congressman and vice president.

Gore has abused his government influence to direct US Energy Dept. contracts in excess of $560,000,000, in 2009 alone, to companies that he has financial interests in.  These are not publicly-traded companies that average Joe American can invest in by buying stocks, either.  These are private capital companies with very large minimum investment requirements.  Gore's investment in Silver Spring Networks was over $75 Million.  Gore routinely abuses the influence of his political cronies, which he formed when he was a public servant.  He abuses his government influence to sit in on congressional sessions and senate hearings where he can push his pseudo-environmental legislation.  That is a sleazy abuse of government power for personal gain.

Just to be fair, I'll reference the New York Times, the mother of all liberal news sources, as my source.  The article is definitely worth a read, as it points out so much of Al Gore's personal investments in agendas he pushed as a "public servant":
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/business/energy-environment/03gore.html


   Ahh........because he is not.  While I am not privy to Al's financial statement I did see Forbes set his net worth around 100 million in 2008.  It did state that he increased his net worth from 2 or 3 million in 2001 to the previously stated amount by 2008.  In that time frame he signed on early as an adviser to Google and is on the board of Apple, made a movie, won a couple of awards.  That may explain some of this increase.  Now I know he invests heavily in green energy technology and other tech companies but as a private citizen that is his right.  It seems he has been a very successful capitalist, I would think you would admire that.  

« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 04:23:20 AM by edbikerii »
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Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2010, 05:04:59 AM »
Interesting article Ed and thanks for the link. If you read it however it dosent really support your interpretation....here is the last part of the article with some edits (noted);

"Mr. Gore is not a lobbyist, and he has never asked Congress or the administration for an earmark or policy decision that would directly benefit one of his investments. But he has been a tireless advocate for policies that would move the country away from the use of coal and oil, and he has begun a $300 million campaign to end the use of fossil fuels in electricity production in 10 years.

But Marc Morano, a climate change skeptic who until recently was a top aide to Senator James M. Inhofe, Republican of Oklahoma, said that what he saw as Mr. Gore’s alarmism and occasional exaggerations distorted the debate and also served his personal financial interests.

Mr. Gore has testified numerous times in support of legislation to address climate change and to revamp the nation’s energy policies.

He appeared before the House Energy and Commerce Committee in April to support an energy and climate change bill that was intended to reduce global warming emissions through a cap-and-trade program for major polluting industries.

(EDIT)

But at the hearing in April, he was challenged by Ms. Blackburn, who echoed some of the criticism of Mr. Gore that has swirled in conservative blogs and radio talk shows. She noted that Mr. Gore is a partner at Kleiner Perkins, which has hundreds of millions of dollars invested in firms that could benefit from any legislation that limits carbon dioxide emissions.

“I believe that the transition to a green economy is good for our economy and good for all of us, and I have invested in it,” Mr. Gore said, adding that he had put “every penny” he has made from his investments into the Alliance for Climate Protection.

“And, Congresswoman,” he added, “if you believe that the reason I have been working on this issue for 30 years is because of greed, you don’t know me.”"

So on the one hand you have your view that Gore is deceiving the country and his using his former ties to promote his own agenda and get rich doing so....

....on the other hand you could argue he is entitled to make money now that he is no longer in the Government (what else is he going to do?) and he is investing his own money (as well as his business partners) with no guarantee of a return....who knows maybe the whole "green industry" thing will NOT be good for the economy - but what will be instead? oil?......so in other words he is taking a risk and putting his money where his mouth is....

Its just as well no other politicians like Dick Cheney put their business interests (Halliburton) first before the countrys welfare....of course he didnt profit from the Iraq war/"war on terror" etc... ::)

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0403-10.htm

cheers
Andy

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2010, 08:54:48 AM »
I see your point, Andy, but as I pointed out, the New York Times is very biased, and the article I posted as a reference is a perfect example:

It doesn't surprise me that the New York Times claims that "Mr. Gore is not a lobbyist", and that he "has never asked Congress or the administration for an earmark or policy decision that would directly benefit one of his investments", but in the very same article they admit that he appeared before committes in both the congress and the senate, and that he's been "a tireless advocate for policies" that affect his bottom line (see my last post for just one example of $560M in 2009).  Who else has such influence, other than a former vice president, senator, and congressman?

The other politicians you mentioned are not relevant in a discussion about global warming.

Interesting article Ed and thanks for the link. If you read it however it dosent really support your interpretation....here is the last part of the article with some edits (noted);

"Mr. Gore is not a lobbyist, and he has never asked Congress or the administration for an earmark or policy decision that would directly benefit one of his investments. But he has been a tireless advocate for policies that would move the country away from the use of coal and oil, and he has begun a $300 million campaign to end the use of fossil fuels in electricity production in 10 years.

But Marc Morano, a climate change skeptic who until recently was a top aide to Senator James M. Inhofe, Republican of Oklahoma, said that what he saw as Mr. Gore’s alarmism and occasional exaggerations distorted the debate and also served his personal financial interests.

Mr. Gore has testified numerous times in support of legislation to address climate change and to revamp the nation’s energy policies.

He appeared before the House Energy and Commerce Committee in April to support an energy and climate change bill that was intended to reduce global warming emissions through a cap-and-trade program for major polluting industries.

(EDIT)

But at the hearing in April, he was challenged by Ms. Blackburn, who echoed some of the criticism of Mr. Gore that has swirled in conservative blogs and radio talk shows. She noted that Mr. Gore is a partner at Kleiner Perkins, which has hundreds of millions of dollars invested in firms that could benefit from any legislation that limits carbon dioxide emissions.

“I believe that the transition to a green economy is good for our economy and good for all of us, and I have invested in it,” Mr. Gore said, adding that he had put “every penny” he has made from his investments into the Alliance for Climate Protection.

“And, Congresswoman,” he added, “if you believe that the reason I have been working on this issue for 30 years is because of greed, you don’t know me.”"

So on the one hand you have your view that Gore is deceiving the country and his using his former ties to promote his own agenda and get rich doing so....

....on the other hand you could argue he is entitled to make money now that he is no longer in the Government (what else is he going to do?) and he is investing his own money (as well as his business partners) with no guarantee of a return....who knows maybe the whole "green industry" thing will NOT be good for the economy - but what will be instead? oil?......so in other words he is taking a risk and putting his money where his mouth is....

Its just as well no other politicians like Dick Cheney put their business interests (Halliburton) first before the countrys welfare....of course he didnt profit from the Iraq war/"war on terror" etc... ::)

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0403-10.htm

cheers
Andy


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Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #118 on: January 15, 2010, 09:53:01 AM »
I also understand where you are coming from on this Ed but your (in my opinion) argument is based on conjecture so its a little weak. Anyway lets move on from the Gore debate....

cheers
Andy

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
2. CB750/810cc K2  - road racer with JMR worked head 71 hp
3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline mick7504

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #119 on: January 15, 2010, 10:32:10 AM »
Now it's too much TV that's gonna put ya into a Pine Box early.

Ham sandwiches next?

Cold Beer?

750 Hondas?

Just can't wait fast enough.  :P  ;D
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #120 on: January 15, 2010, 10:44:18 AM »
You know, we can certainly agree to disagree, but your attempt at a parting swipe ("conjecture") is really very rude.  All I did was quote two clearly conflicting statements from YOUR post.

In any event, you obviously have your opinion and it is very different from what I have observed.

Good luck.

I also understand where you are coming from on this Ed but your (in my opinion) argument is based on conjecture so its a little weak. Anyway lets move on from the Gore debate....

cheers
Andy


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Offline syth82

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #121 on: January 15, 2010, 11:31:53 AM »
I know you guys got past the "strawman arguement" part of the conversation already, but I wanted to point out the post that started this thread was basically saying "it got warm 90ish years ago, so we can't be causing global warming." (Unless I missed something. Which is very likely.) This seems to be more of a strawman arguement than "we are putting lots of co2 into the air, and cutting down trees (which help reduce co2) and high co2 has been historically PROVEN to coencide with increased temperatures" granted it wasn't spelled out as such, but I'm sure it was the intent of the "deforestation" point.
-Luke


By trying to make yourself sound intelligent you appear to be #$%*in stupid......

Offline andy750

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #122 on: January 15, 2010, 11:37:34 AM »
Sorry Ed I really didnt mean to be rude on this occasion so I apologise if thats how it came across. The conjecture comments wasnt intended as a parting swipe.

have a good weekend
Andy

 

Current bikes
1. CB750K4: Long distance bike, 17 countries and counting...2001 - Trans-USA-Mexico, 2003 - European Tour, 2004 - SOHC Easy Rider Trip , 2008 - Adirondack Tour 2-up , 2013 - Tail of the Dragon Tour , 2017: 836 kit install and bottom end rebuild. And rebirth: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,173213.msg2029836.html#msg2029836
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3. Yamaha Tenere T700 2022

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Offline paulages

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2010, 11:47:45 AM »
speaking of strawman arguments.... al gore's wealth= green tech is BS?  :-\
paul
SOHC4 member #1050

1974 CB550 (735cc)
1976 CB550 (590cc) road racer
1973 CB750K3
1972 NORTON Commando Combat
1996 KLX650 R

Offline edbikerii

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Re: So it's global warming is it ?
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2010, 11:48:25 AM »
OK, no harm, no foul.  You have a good weekend, too!

Ed

Sorry Ed I really didnt mean to be rude on this occasion so I apologise if thats how it came across. The conjecture comments wasnt intended as a parting swipe.

have a good weekend
Andy

 


SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

Jetting: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg258435#msg258435
Needles:  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20869.msg253711#msg253711