Topic: So it's global warming is it ?

[TwoTired]

City dwellers should be housed underground.   

Isn't it amazing how easy it is to make rules that apply to someone else.

Perhaps country dwellers should be made to exist without the internet?  I mean, if they want to communicate with a vast number people, they should live in a city.

[paulages]

To an extent, that graph does somewhat show a correlation between high co2 and higher temps, to an extent. Nut as it has been proven that trees(and other plants) convert co2 into o2, cutting down trees reduces the amount that can be converted.

Damn idiots. What the hell do you think happened to trees before we started harvesting and managing forest.
You ever heard of "forest fires".  Do you think that little fires just started and then burned out, oh say like, after a 1/4 acre?
Even when we fight forest fires now a days we have massive burns, I'd think we could even multiply that by 100 and
come way short of the massive burns that probably occurred historically.

But then again, if your talking about cutting trees for housing developments, suburbia, urban sprawl, etc.... Yea it's a bad practice.
City dwellers should be housed underground.   

rocking... i hear what you are saying, and i have several friends who are in the logging business, but you cannot compare naturally occuring and burning forest fires to conventional logging or the type of fires we see here in the NW. this is another one of those "can't really cover it all here" type of topics, but old growth forests not only withstand forest fires, they actually thrive from them. besides the fact that many species (sequoia for example) require the type of temperatures provided by fire to germinate, fire removes undergrowth and is a natural part of the development of a healthy forest. trying to contain a high-fuel fire and save lumber/homes in remaining stands that are only a fragment of what once existed in america is not the same thing.

in any case, i'll tell you what happened before we started managing wildlife and forests... they managed fine for millenia.  otherwise, the species involved would be extinct. talk about human arrogance....

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, that was kind of a silly statement coming from a logger, I would have thought that RM would have known more about natural regeneration.

Here in Oz, the Aboriginals were/are a very nomadic race, and before white settlers arrived in Oz, after occupying a location for a period of time, when their food sources started to dry up they would burn the "bush" (forest) so that it would regenerate over time, and they would move on to another area.

I don't know much about Native American history, but I imagine that they were somewhat similar, but even if they weren't, nature has the ability to manage it's own affairs without any help from us naked apes. Cheers, Terry.    

[demon78]

Hey RM and only let them out on Mondays and Wednesday, as far as communicating with vast numbers of people I thought that's why we live in the country so we don't have to.
Bill the demon.

[Terry in Australia]

Hey RM and only let them out on Mondays and Wednesday, as far as communicating with vast numbers of people I thought that's why we live in the country so we don't have to.
Bill the demon.

So Bill, what are you doing here again mate?  

[Rocking-M]

Hey RM and only let them out on Mondays and Wednesday, as far as communicating with vast numbers of people I thought that's why we live in the country so we don't have to.
Bill the demon.

So Bill, what are you doing here again mate?  

I say we're just trying to impart a little common sense to the unwashed masses.

Just Mondays Bill.

[Rocking-M]

Paul, The point I'm making is that sound timbering management probably mirrors what historically occurred naturally.
In other words the amount of trees removed from the co2 to o2 cycle now and then returned to the cycle through
replanting or natural regeneration in the select cut areas probably is near what was removed by Indians through their
management/hunting practices or even further back, by natural large burn forest fires (which by the way produced a whole
lot of co2 and probably some of the historical blips we seem to see in historical climate change charts).


Bill, only half a day on Mondays and they will only be allocated plastic toilet paper.

[demon78]

Mondays,only, that's my problem I'm too generous RM, Terry I'm here, not in in a city, also I thought the forum was roughly the size of a small town and I'm not opposed to the vast array of different opinions, because of different places in the world they come from. All I'm opposed to is everyone showing up at my door step telling me I don't live in a city and because of that I couldn't possibly understand their failures and why am I not moving into an urban centre, when it's a conscious choice on my part. That's a convoluted way of expressing it, when I think of the net as the same as a shortwave radio, thoughts from all over the world but not the people's physical presence. Nice to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.
Bill the demon.

[ofreen]

Perhaps country dwellers should be made to exist without the internet?  I mean, if they want to communicate with a vast number people, they should live in a city.

Best post on this thread.  Save me from myself, take away my internet connection.  I will now quit this and go out and do something constructive.  Thanks, TT.

[Inigo Montoya]

RM, sound timbering as you put does not exist everywhere though. Hell if it were not mandatory in the US, it probably would not happen either. There are a lot of areas where trees get the ax and are not allowed to regrow. Not all logging companies around the world work as your does.

[jjoe256]

To put all this in perspective:

http://www.phschool.com/science/science_news/articles/climates_long_lost.html

Green house gasses seem to be exacerbating a trend that would happen anyway over a longer time frame and maybe not as drastic. In 20,000 years we'll be worrying about another ice-age that should last at least 3 times longer!!
                                 Can't win!

[kslrr]

RM, sound timbering as you put does not exist everywhere though. Hell if it were not mandatory in the US, it probably would not happen either. There are a lot of areas where trees get the ax and are not allowed to regrow. Not all logging companies around the world work as your does.

So, what your saying is that since the whole world isn't perfect, those in power should make ANY AND ALL HUMAN ACTIVITY THAT HAS A HINT OF DAMAGING THE PLANET ILLEGAL.  That's what the elitists and the liberals want to do and if we (the masses) talk like they do, they will simply run over us.

[Inigo Montoya]

Did I say anything like that? I don't recall doing so. Let me check. Hmmm. nope does not look like I said anything like that. Looks like I said

RM, sound timbering as you put does not exist everywhere though. Hell if it were not mandatory in the US, it probably would not happen either. There are a lot of areas where trees get the ax and are not allowed to regrow. Not all logging companies around the world work as your does.

yup that looks like what I said and funny enough, unless you completely misread it, it simply states that many areas of the world do not practice sound timber techniques.

But I can see how you might misconstrue it.....Actually I can't. It was pretty straight forward.

It would be nice if all countries could practice sensible timbering and resource management though.

[kslrr]

Did I say anything like that? I don't recall doing so. Let me check. Hmmm. nope does not look like I said anything like that. Looks like I said

RM, sound timbering as you put does not exist everywhere though. Hell if it were not mandatory in the US, it probably would not happen either. There are a lot of areas where trees get the ax and are not allowed to regrow. Not all logging companies around the world work as your does.

yup that looks like what I said and funny enough, unless you completely misread it, it simply states that many areas of the world do not practice sound timber techniques.

But I can see how you might misconstrue it.....Actually I can't. It was pretty straight forward.

It would be nice if all countries could practice sensible timbering and resource management though.

I was playing devil's advocate  because that's how the liberals in our government would read it.

[Inigo Montoya]

How liberals read it? yet conservatives removed a lot of these regulations? I think you need to stop thinking in a liberal/conservative method. Bush and Co. removed a lot of restriction when it came to protected lands. So in all reality, both sides are out to screw us as both are just different sides of the same coin.

[kslrr]

Did I say Bush was a conservative?  Republican does not equal conservative.

[Inigo Montoya]

No but he claimed to be a conservative.

[kslrr]

Your right.  The best thing is if all countries could get together, get beyound the bickering, the special interest groups and come up with some good, workable solutions.  A way to continue with our quality of life, improve other's quality of life while extending both renewable and non renewable resources.

[Rocking-M]

How liberals read it? yet conservatives removed a lot of these regulations? I think you need to stop thinking in a liberal/conservative method. Bush and Co. removed a lot of restriction when it came to protected lands. So in all reality, both sides are out to screw us as both are just different sides of the same coin.

but though I agree, their all in the same boat (speaking of Demo or Repub, liberal or conservative) their both paddling hard to the
same water fall. It would be nice if they went over and we could just start over.

The main problem loggers have with the general publicks opinion of it is; it's not purty after we finish. And, it doesn't regenerate over night. In this day and age of instant gratification folks just can't accept that, their thought being if it can't be fixed (regrown immediately) then it must be bad. Nope, just because folks don't like the way something looks in the short run doesn't make it bad.

Where I have a problem is condemning logging and loggers in general as practicing bad management without government regulations. I don't agree since I and many before me logged with concern for the land after they'd finished. There is always greed in any profession, some practice it and others don't. Not all bad logging practices was initially done out of greed however, sometimes a fellow just learns from mistakes. I think that's were we're at now in the logging business. Same place a lot of agricultural practices are in also.

[kslrr]

Very well said Rocking-M!

[Inigo Montoya]

I dont look at loggers as bad. How could I when I grew up around strip mines! Now THAT is an eye sore. In the upper midwest, that is how all lignite mining is done. The mining companies are supposed to take part in reclamation but by the time the mine is dug out, the hills of dirt and rock have grass on them already.

[ofreen]

Probably won't change anybody's mind, but here it is anyway. 

http://www.kusi.com/home/78477082.html?video=pop&t=a

[kslrr]

His time line shows what I've seen before: an increase in the earths temperature cause the increase in CO2.

[Rocking-M]

Probably won't change anybody's mind, but here it is anyway. 

http://www.kusi.com/home/78477082.html?video=pop&t=a

interesting, I wonder if those ice age spikes where caused by massive forest fires that realized untold
tons of ash into the atmosphere causing the cool down of the earth. 

Thanks for that one Ofreen, an interesting graph no doubt.

[Rocking-M]

I dont look at loggers as bad. How could I when I grew up around strip mines! Now THAT is an eye sore. In the upper midwest, that is how all lignite mining is done. The mining companies are supposed to take part in reclamation but by the time the mine is dug out, the hills of dirt and rock have grass on them already.

Mr. Inigo, I just learned "Paradise" a good John Prine song. I just didn't know he wrote till last night.