Topic: why, oh why do people call mustangs and camaros muscle cars?

[bucky katt]

i was watching a program on the national geographic channel this evening and repeatedly they called a camaro a muscle car! it's not like this was some dip#$%* at the local napa saying it either, this is a program there supposedly to inform folks. i know this isnt earth shatteringly important but come on people. cars like the 409 impala, the gto, my personal favourite the 63 1/2 Galaxie with the R code 427, THOSE are muscle cars. the camaro and mustang are pony cars. rant over, discussion may now commence  

[Zaipai]

I am pretty sure compared to most cars on the road today they are muscle cars. I believe its because they have high HP motors (compared to todays standard cars) and are light weight and have some sport suspensions. Well that's my thinking anyway.

.: Scott :.

[Gordon]

There's nothing light weight about a true muscle car.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I would classify the Mach 1 as a muscle car, that is when they decided to put some displacement behind the wheel. I can't remember if the Camaro ever got that serious out of the box.

[bender01]

So a zl-1 Camaro wouldnt be a muscle car? or an 84 2.8 wouldnt be? A 64 galaxie with a 292 straight six? Just stirring up conversation.

[bill440cars]

   Yeah folks, but what jeff (bucky) is talking about is, the pony cars were the Mustangs, Camaros, Firebirds, Challengers & Barracudas. The TRUE Muscle cars were the midsize cars like the Chevelle SS, Fairlane GT & GTA, road runners, Super Bees, Chargers, Comet Cyclones, 442's, GTOs and such as that. Not denying that lots of cars had Muscle, but weren't actually classified as muscle cars. That's what Jeff is talking about. As far as Displacement behind the wheel, the Mustang wasn't the first by any means.

          AND, I think it was around the mid to late 60's that the term came into being.


      

So a zl-1 Camaro wouldnt be a muscle car? or an 84 2.8 wouldnt be? A 64 galaxie with a 292 straight six? Just stirring up conversation.

        Thanks Ben, we needed that.

          

[bucky katt]

the GTO was really the first true muscle car. a large (389ci) engine in a midsized lightweight sedan.   

copied directly from the wikipedia article : Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1][2] At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally.[3][4][5][6]

[bill440cars]

the GTO was really the first true muscle car. a large (389ci) engine in a midsized lightweight sedan.   

copied directly from the wikipedia article : Muscle car is a term used to refer to a variety of high performance automobiles.[1][2] At its most widely accepted the term refers to American 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size cars of the late 1960s and early 1970s equipped with large, powerful V8s and sold at an affordable price for street use and drag racing, formally and informally.[3][4][5][6]

          Agreed, the GTO WAS the First, I had forgotten that.

[bill440cars]

  This also came from Wikipedia:

       Manufacturer    Pony car                  Muscle car
AMC                           Javelin                          AMX
Chevrolet                  Camaro                       Chevelle
Dodge                Challenger                  Charger
Ford                      Mustang                Torino
Mercury                 Cougar                  Montego
Oldsmobile                     none                    442
Plymouth                 Barracuda              Road Runner
Pontiac                  Firebird                  GTO

[HavocTurbo]

OMG Wiki SUX BALLS!!!!

Where's the AMC Rebel Machine???!?!?!?!?!

390ci V8 / Hurst Shift Kit 4-Speed / Posi-Trac Rear / Fully Functional Hood Scoop / Hood mounted Tach

Mine has the rare A/C option.

Tell me this isn't muscle?

[TwoTired]

The 1968 Ford Mustang received a simpler grille and side trim and a limited number of 427 engines were slipped into the engine bays. These 427 engines were slightly detuned but still cranked out 390bhp, enough to strike fear on the streets. Then on April 1, 1968, Ford unveiled perhaps its most famous line of engines, the 428 Cobra Jet. It was based on the regular 428 but included larger valve heads, the race 427's intake manifold, and an oil-pan windage tray. It had ram-air induction and breathed through a functional hood scoop. Output was listed at 335bhp but was rumoured to be around 410bhp.
Performance:
(Cobra Jet) 428/335: 0-60 in 5.4 sec, 1/4 mile in 14.01@101mph.
Source: http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/ford-mustang/ford-mustang-history-1.shtml

But real performance is more than special upholstery and the big news for 1969 was the availability of special 427 cid V8 equipped Camaros. The first were special dealer-installed units, most notably the Yenko Camaro 427. Yenko Sports Cars, based in Pennsylvania, along with other Chevy dealers such as Nickey in Chicago, Dana in California, and Baldwin-Motion in New York, would install the L72 427 cid block, rated at 425bhp by Chevrolet, ordered under the Central Office Production Order System (COPO) code 9562 into a buyer's Camaro. The Yenko Camaro 427 is a typical example: it came from the factory with no ornamentation, badging, and the 427 engine in a crate. Yenko installed the 427 block, changed the rating to a more realistic 450bhp, and added 15-inch rally wheels, bigger front roll bar, and sYc (Yenko Sports Car) badging. A full complement of racing add ons were available and sub 13 second quarter miles were possible with a few more dollars.

The 1969 Camaro:
...Overshadowing these dealer modified Camaros was the factory Camaro ZL1. Specially designed to compete in the NHRA Super Stock drag classes, Chevrolet made it an option under the COPO system (code 9560). The cars began as SS396/375bhp Camaros with the F41 suspension. The SS trim and engine were deleted, and the 427 engine, cowl-induction hood, front disc brakes, a choice of heavy duty 4 speed transmissions or Turbo Hydra-matic, and a 4:10 posi axle were added. But instead of the regular iron-block and head L72 found in the dealer installed Camaros, the ZL1 sported aluminum heads and the first aluminum block ever made by Chevrolet. It shared the L88 aluminum head/iron block's engine rating of 430 bhp but made closer to 500 bhp -- making it probably the most powerful engine Chevrolet ever offered to the public. And the engine weighed just 500 pounds, the same as Chevy's 327 small block. The car was blessed with a 5 year/50,000 mile warranty and was fully street legal. With factory exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; with headers and slicks, it could turn 11.6s @ 122mph. This was the fastest car ever produced by Chevrolet.
Source: http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/chevrolet-camaro/chevrolet-camaro-history-1.shtml

They sure sound like muscle cars to me.

[Don R]

One that preceeded the GTO and most of the others was the '63 pontiac tempest, 421 dual quads, even the first tunnel ram. They made a (factory) custom bellhousing to turn the 4 speed 10 degrees so it would fit the trans tunnel. Granted not many were made but some were. A local guy even got an aluminum bumper and fendered race version and talked the factory into a radio and yellow paint. 1 of 1 built. He traded it in 67 for a new chevelle ss396 even up. Would be worth a million today. That was muscle.
 You are correct they were pony cars, but with a big block they had muscle comparable to anything out there.

[bender01]

When I was very young Dad had a 69 vette that he built with an l-88 crate motor. It was awesome. I remember it well since it was yellow with the yellow/ black l-88 hood. 4spd. I rode alot in the back over the battery where the t-tops could be stored.Side pipes too. A few wouldnt ride in it! So then I could do backwards somersaults in the front seat without them around. The sound at speed was almost a quiet noise and finally climbing up to look over the dash to see the hood almost breathing up and down will never leave me. Also having some of the crate in the garage that said "for off road use only"! Was very cool to my bicycling friends. I didnt understand his license plate for a few years but it was "My High" The sound it made when he shut it off was just as memorable .Doot doot dottle loot doot...ssssssssss. That was a muscle car in my book.The engine is on a stand in CT at his friends since the mid 80s. Transplant into a 67 has been on hold since then!! Car and engine sitting there. Black/black coupe! I guess those are sports cars?

[bill440cars]

   Guys, it isn't to say that other cars didn't have power and speed. I mean, a 427 Vette was powerful and had speed, but wasn't considered a "Muscle Car", even though it was surely a threat. Then there was the Studebaker Avanti, with the 289 supercharged engine, IT wasn't considered a "Muscle car" either. Neither was a Hemi Cuda or a Challenger R/T with the 440 6pk. It wasn't just about the engine. It was several thi ngs as was stated by bucky, from Wikipedia.

   The whole idea is missed by just talking about the performance part. It's just that simple. A 60's Impala SS with the 425hp 409/4sp/posi was not considered a "Musclecar" I don't see why it isn't understood.

    Now, I WILL say that I don't understand why the Rebel Machine isn't classidied in there. Maybe the cost has a factor, I don't know. But, the AMX, Mustang, Comaro, FIrebird, Cuda, Challenger, Cougar, etc, were considered "Pony Cars".     

[bill440cars]

   BTW FOLKS, I called my 69' GTX a "Muscle Car" and by TRUE definition, it ISN'T. The road runner IS, but the GTX, in my opinion, misses out because of the PRICE. THAT is one of the factors in classifying a "Muscle Car" and I Promise you that this car has Muscle Too! Think about it.

[333]

Okay, you're right about the pony and muscle cars, and the distinction between them, but have you seen what these kids are running these days?  They take a 4 cylinder POS and "tune" it and think they have a hopped up machine.  And while they may have more than when they started, it wouldn't compare to anything from back in the day with a V8, much less a pony or muscle car.

[bill440cars]

Okay, you're right about the pony and muscle cars, and the distinction between them, but have you seen what these kids are running these days?  They take a 4 cylinder POS and "tune" it and think they have a hopped up machine.  And while they may have more than when they started, it wouldn't compare to anything from back in the day with a V8, much less a pony or muscle car.

  And neither would I.      And, for the record, I have grown to HAT the sound that comes from one of the later model cars (Honda, Mazda or whatever) with one of those funky sounding mufflers. They sound like crap. My Chainsaw sounds better than that. On THAT note, I have to tell what happened the other night (a little while back actually). I was coming out of Fort Smith on us hwy 71 and was in traffic. The car in front of me was not even running the speed limit AND there was plenty of room for them to pull over. But, they just wouldn't do it! The GTX is pretty loud, especially when you gas it. Well, I dropped it into 3rd , "gassed it" and let off. All of a sudden the right turn signal came on, on that car and they pulled over very quickly. Then I was able to move on, with several others following me. Problem solved! Now, one of those cars with the funky sounding exhaust, probably wouldn't have raised an eyebrow.

[Johnie]

Interesting thread...here is a pic of my 1969 GTO I bought used in 1971 while a junior in high school. Ended up restoring it inside and out including an engine rebuild when I broke a ring. Drove it only when there was no snow on the ground and went to a few shows with it. In the late 1990's it was time to let it go...then I got back into the 750's. I have to admit I would not mind a 32 Ford Coupe in my garage...

[bill440cars]

OMG Wiki SUX BALLS!!!!

Where's the AMC Rebel Machine???!?!?!?!?!

390ci V8 / Hurst Shift Kit 4-Speed / Posi-Trac Rear / Fully Functional Hood Scoop / Hood mounted Tach

Mine has the rare A/C option.

Tell me this isn't muscle?

           HT, Sure not trying to say anything against your Fantastic looking "Machine"! You been holding out on us here? Cool to se THZAT one!

[Inigo Montoya]

Actually you would be surprised at what a decent tuner car can put out. I would race one against any muscle car from the day. I might lose, but not by much. See the muscle cars are fat asses, the tuners weigh about HALF the weight. So given the weight savings, you don't NEED 400+ hp. besides that, a lot of the good tuners are putting out 300HP.
Now I dont care for the tuners either but I wouldn't dismiss one just because you don't like them when you don't know anything about them.

[bill440cars]

Interesting thread...here is a pic of my 1969 GTO I bought used in 1971 while a junior in high school. Ended up restoring it inside and out including an engine rebuild when I broke a ring. Drove it only when there was no snow on the ground and went to a few shows with it. In the late 1990's it was time to let it go...then I got back into the 750's. I have to admit I would not mind a 32 Ford Coupe in my garage...

           Johnie, that is one fine looking Goat that you have there. Seems we are turning up some old stuff with this thread that bucky started and THAT'S cool in itself.

[bill440cars]

Actually you would be surprised at what a decent tuner car can put out. I would race one against any muscle car from the day. I might lose, but not by much. See the muscle cars are fat asses, the tuners weigh about HALF the weight. So given the weight savings, you don't NEED 400+ hp. besides that, a lot of the good tuners are putting out 300HP.
Now I dont care for the tuners either but I wouldn't dismiss one just because you don't like them when you don't know anything about them.

        Some might be surprised, but I know that with the technology, things can be done in a different and better wy, to make cars perform. Only thing is, the old ones had character to them, that helped to make them appealing. A good example of what YOU are saying, is the 85' Shelby Charger that I have gotten recently. Started with a 2.2 turbocharged engine (not much bigger than the battery of the old GTX) and it put out 145hp in stock trim. It was able to do battle with some pretty impressive cars. Now, this one has a 2.5 turbocharged engine, putting out about 245hp and capable of being dialed in to get up to about 350hp! The folks I got the car from, used to go out looking for Mustangs to put down. While the little Charger will Git pretty good, the GTX just has the OLD STYLE look AND feel to it. Yeah, some of these newer small cars, will go, but it's different. They won't get the blood pumping for some of us, like the Older ones will.

                  Take an old SOHC750 and a recent 750, which one will give us the BETTER feeling about being on it?  The older SOHC bike, I hope!

[Inigo Montoya]

Only thing is the character part is subjective. Very few musclecars appeal to me. I actually prefer the pony cars, well not the rustang I LOVE the look of the late 70s corvettes and would probably trade my 750 in a heartbeat for one. I just like the L82 body style. Next would be the 280Z cars. I guess I like the sleek cars and not the bulky ones.
Tuners do nothing for me at all, or very rarely.

You talk to a group of tuners and to most of them, muscle cars are old and outdated with looks to match.

Kinda how I like the 77/78K and if I ever got a 69-76, I would make it look closer to a 77/78.

It is all personal preference but age also plays a factor.

[bill440cars]

Only thing is the character part is subjective. Very few musclecars appeal to me. I actually prefer the pony cars, well not the rustang I LOVE the look of the late 70s corvettes and would probably trade my 750 in a heartbeat for one. I just like the L82 body style. Next would be the 280Z cars. I guess I like the sleek cars and not the bulky ones.
Tuners do nothing for me at all, or very rarely.

You talk to a group of tuners and to most of them, muscle cars are old and outdated with looks to match.

Kinda how I like the 77/78K and if I ever got a 69-76, I would make it look closer to a 77/78.

It is all personal preference but age also plays a factor.

           Totally understand your feeling too! It IS all a matter of preference. Myself, I like several different types of cars. Of the Corvettes, I think the one that appeals to ME the most is the 67' 427 Stingray fastback with the factory sidepipes. There ARE others that I like, but that one will get my attention over most of the others. Nothing at all wrong with any of the Z cars either (240, 260 & 280). Not that there is anything wrong with the other Zs, just My own preference. I was also afan of the Toyota Supra and the Mazda RX7. My likes covers a pretty wide range actually. AND I can respect others thoughts as well. 

[ColinMc]

Lol what's wrong with taking a 4 banger and tuning it? My 2008 Mini Cooper S is tuned out the wazoo...280hp at the front wheels...AND 37mpg on the highway.

Kind of like half of a muscle car...with 4x the fuel mileage lol...and a helluva lot of torque steer hehehe

I'm with you Bill, I had an 89 Toyota Supra with a 95 Supra twin turbo motor and 6 speed in it...miss that car. Still have my 78 RX7 imported from japan right hand drive baby!