Topic: To not hijack a virus repair

[Inigo Montoya]

We are obviously thinking different on the "real world" use issue. Those small distros have SPECIALIZED uses which would differ from "real world" as I see it. I have now said this 3 times. Hopefully I have been able to make it clear to you now.

Also, apparently you only pick up sarcasm when you feel like it. I did not claim as a fact Linus wants to be gates. Now that I though was perfectly clear. 

As for bungled app, depends on what you mean by that. One could say that the most basic text editor is a bungled app. If you look at it that way, then NO os is of any use by itself.

I guess it depends on how much you want to nitpick about it. Just because we disagree on our definitions for what makes a computer usable does not make either of us wrong. Some people feel that a computer without CS4 is completely worthless. It just depends on your idea of what is required to be useful.

So you can't really refute something just because it is not true to you. It is kinda like the believer/atheist argument or the outlook on police. Some think cops are good and some don't. both sides are right in some ways. There are good cops and there are bad cops.

[mystic_1]

I think you really need to read and understand the following article, it helps clarify exactly what an operating system is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system

Bundled apps are NOT a part of the operating system.  Again, you're buying into Microsoft marketing by believing this.

This is not a case of differing personal opinions, but of well-understood Computer Science definitions.


Regarding "real world use issues", by definition that phrase denotes having a use in the real world.  You seem to believe that specialized tools have no use in the real world.  Do you also use screwdrivers as hammers and remove bolts with only vise-grips and nothing else? 

mystic_1

[Inigo Montoya]

Have you forgotten that virtually anything Ms bundgles in, so does Apple? Why do you keep saying I buy into the Ms marketing? Boggles the mind. I mean name one program on windows that mac does not have an equivalent for. I think apple bungles even more apps in but I have not bothered to count.

One could say that the most basic text editor is a bungled app.

Did ya miss that? You seem to be trying to cherry pick here.

And yes it IS a case of differing opinions on what determines real world usability. My opinion happens to differ from yours.

And NOWHERE did I say a specialized tool has no place. Find it, find where I expressly said that. Find where I said a specialized tool has no use.  of course it has a use, BUT only to the people that need it.
Do I have need for a set of whitworth tools? No. Are they specialized? Sure. In the case of some of those little linux ditros, they are specialized for certain things that only certain people need.

So now, maybe you can stop trying to read into this what you want? I feel as if I have made my opinion on what I feel "real world" usability is, perfectly clear.

As terry would say, you are starting to sound like a nitpicking wife.
I really do not care to continue to debate opinions on what "real world" means. I have my opinion and you have yours.
I also know what an OS is and does and yes, virtually any software add is considered an app. Ms bungles it, Apple does, all versions of linux do(just different amounts) too. The difference is that in the larger installs, they are already there, I don't have to add them myself. I don't have to install the system and then go out and try to dig apps up from a repository to add. An analogy would be that the small linux distros are that specialized clutch nut socket and ms, mac, larger linux distros would be like a whole toolbox with all the commonly used tools. 

[mlinder]

Mark, facts can be subjective though depending on the requirement. In most case I do agree with almost everything you say about linux. I would love if it got more love from the software giants. That would be awesome. Though if that happened, more would probably charge for it, hell redhat already does and so does suse I think. We just see different requirements for usability and so the facts end up different based on our perceptions on what usable is. Neither is wrong, just different.

My post to mystic shows that I have ubuntu in my house and I am getting it ready for my father.
I do think though that if linux became more wide-spread, it would lose some of its security. After all, look at the attack on google by them dang chinese. Google runs linux.

Moving on, though, you've been mistaken about *nix security, malware, etc., in comparison to Windows.

I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to go to linux. I'm just correcting misconceptions that you are putting out there, because people listen, and I'd rather they didn't listen to erroneous information, at least not without a counterpoint. I don't really care whether you like *nix or not. I'm not saying you are 'wrong' for liking windows a lot more.
I'm also no asking you to agree with me about linux security. You can't agree. You agree or disagree with opinions. You can't agree or disagree with facts. I laid out facts. You laid out opinions. I'm not denying you your opinions. That would be dumb.

I am not mistaken on linux security. It is very secure...At this time. It can still be hacked as the chinese showed on google.
So really, stating facts about security on a computer is really somewhat impossible. It might be awesomely secure now but what about next week? That could change. I know linux is more secure than windows, by far. Windows has gotten better though. It was about time though. Unless you are talking about ie8, then all bets are off!

Linux has similar security features to OS X (well, the other way around, actually.)
OS X is 10% of the desktop/laptop market share.

However, OS X has over 40% of the mobile market share. That's 37 million computers (the iPhone is a computer) available for hacking.

So... where's the malware and viruses?

[Bob Wessner]

Not that I have much experience with it, but make sure you have enough memory for the latest version of Ubuntu.  My old ME machine wouldn't be able to run it.  It requires 256 mb ram to run at all, and 384 mb ram for some advanced functions.  My old ME machine has only 192(?) mb.  And you do have to jump through some hoops to download it.  Follow the instructions carefully.

That being said, I started using the Karmic Koala version of Ubuntu a couple weeks ago on an old machine.  Just to have the hard disk die on me.  But I am not disillusioned.  I will start over sometime this week.

Well, I guess I can scratch that idea. The laptop only has 120MB of mem. and the USB device driver dates from 2000.

DSL (Damn Small Linux) can be installed on that no problem. It's designed to run from CD, but can be installed on a HD. There is USB support.

Googled around on DSL and it seems it is for folks a bit more technically savvy than myself. Other unix distributions seem to have self-installing packages from a burned ISO whereas DSL seems to require assembling a number of different files in remote directories.

Try VentorLinux Standard.

http://vectorlinux.com/downloads

Burned the ISO to a CD and after thinking about some of the questions asked in a shared OS environment, I decided to devote the whole thing (laptop) to the Linux install. Went pretty well, though I seriously doubt this particular laptop, in its current configuration, will ever connect to our wireless router here, but I will give it a try, and if nothing else, use this to learn a bit more about Linux since the laptop is pretty much useless for anything Win related.

As a side  note, after installing, I was browsing the documentation. Got sidetracked and worked on the desktop for a while. The Linux box went into idle with the screen saver. About 20 minutes later, the system crashed and took a dump. So far the score is WinXP 1, Linux 0. Just kidding.   Though it did crash.

[mlinder]

Not that I have much experience with it, but make sure you have enough memory for the latest version of Ubuntu.  My old ME machine wouldn't be able to run it.  It requires 256 mb ram to run at all, and 384 mb ram for some advanced functions.  My old ME machine has only 192(?) mb.  And you do have to jump through some hoops to download it.  Follow the instructions carefully.

That being said, I started using the Karmic Koala version of Ubuntu a couple weeks ago on an old machine.  Just to have the hard disk die on me.  But I am not disillusioned.  I will start over sometime this week.

Well, I guess I can scratch that idea. The laptop only has 120MB of mem. and the USB device driver dates from 2000.

DSL (Damn Small Linux) can be installed on that no problem. It's designed to run from CD, but can be installed on a HD. There is USB support.

Googled around on DSL and it seems it is for folks a bit more technically savvy than myself. Other unix distributions seem to have self-installing packages from a burned ISO whereas DSL seems to require assembling a number of different files in remote directories.

Try VentorLinux Standard.

http://vectorlinux.com/downloads

Burned the ISO to a CD and after thinking about some of the questions asked in a shared OS environment, I decided to devote the whole thing (laptop) to the Linux install. Went pretty well, though I seriously doubt this particular laptop, in its current configuration, will ever connect to our wireless router here, but I will give it a try, and if nothing else, use this to learn a bit more about Linux since the laptop is pretty much useless for anything Win related.

As a side  note, after installing, I was browsing the documentation. Got sidetracked and worked on the desktop for a while. The Linux box went into idle with the screen saver. About 20 minutes later, the system crashed and took a dump. So far the score is WinXP 1, Linux 0. Just kidding.   Though it did crash.

ouch

I wonder if it's a driver issue for the display. What's the model of the laptop?

[Bob Wessner]

Could be anything. It's an old IBM Thinkpad iSeries with a Celeron processor. I'd have to dig in to get any more detail on the driver and that would mean learning a good deal more about Linux to find it.

[Inigo Montoya]

have you checked for any proprietary drivers on the system? I ran into that once But I cant remember what hardware device it was for. I think it was intel though. I will say that on my ubuntu system, I never use sleep. I find that my shutdown/startup is faster then sleep/wake.

[Bob Wessner]

But sleep has some pretty slick graphic screens. 

[mlinder]

Could be anything. It's an old IBM Thinkpad iSeries with a Celeron processor. I'd have to dig in to get any more detail on the driver and that would mean learning a good deal more about Linux to find it.

Inigo is right. No hardware likes to be put in stasis.
You can turn on the screensaver, but tell it not to shut the drives off. This is the usual issue with 'sleep', and hardware hates it, generally speaking.

What's the actual model of the laptop?

[Inigo Montoya]

Linux has similar security features to OS X (well, the other way around, actually.)
OS X is 10% of the desktop/laptop market share.

However, OS X has over 40% of the mobile market share. That's 37 million computers (the iPhone is a computer) available for hacking.

So... where's the malware and viruses?

you mean linux has similar security to unix

osx 10%?  http://mashable.com/2009/11/26/windows-7-passes-mac-os-x/    This is worldwide though.

iphone virus huh.  http://www.tomshardware.com/news/iphone-virus-botnet-bank-details,9136.html
http://www.quickpwn.com/2009/07/iphone-virus.html
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/mobiles/mixed-response-to-astley-iphone-virus-20091110-i74f.html (ok this one is not evil unless you hate rick astley but it shows the iphone is subject to worms)
So the first page of a simple google search shows 3 different items. one of which can steal bank info.

[mlinder]

First one is interesting, but second one is weird.

"These phones are unlocked so users can use non-Apple applications or service providers, and only those who had failed to reset default security passwords were affected."

It's the same as 'hacking' an open wireless router with factory default login.

[Inigo Montoya]

that would be true but most people use these phones for the apps and care little about the fine points. I think most people assume since it is apple, it is automatically secure.

Kinda like the person that runs a router open or even wep. I usually try to set up with wpa2 personal with aes as that seems to be better than tkip(at this time), backed with mac filtering(though it can be spoofed), and a limit on the nubmer of connections at one time. This is basic of course but usually sufficient for most home users without getting into the hassle of port monitoring and blocking.

[Bob Wessner]

Could be anything. It's an old IBM Thinkpad iSeries with a Celeron processor. I'd have to dig in to get any more detail on the driver and that would mean learning a good deal more about Linux to find it.

Inigo is right. No hardware likes to be put in stasis.
You can turn on the screensaver, but tell it not to shut the drives off. This is the usual issue with 'sleep', and hardware hates it, generally speaking.

What's the actual model of the laptop?

As best I can determine it's: ThinkPad i Series 1200 Machine type 1161. The serial number label on the bottom seems to end in what appears to be a date.. 01/06.   I just noticed it has a single PCI card slot on the one side. Never noticed or had occasion to use it before.

[mystic_1]

And NOWHERE did I say a specialized tool has no place. Find it, find where I expressly said that.

Ok:

My point exactly. None of them have much usability. They are almost all targeted at very select number of things.

mystic_1

[ev0lve]

First one is interesting, but second one is weird.

"These phones are unlocked so users can use non-Apple applications or service providers, and only those who had failed to reset default security passwords were affected."

It's the same as 'hacking' an open wireless router with factory default login.

Yeah, like most operating systems, if you enable root access and make its password 1234 well... you deserve what you get. Smart enough to hack it but not smart enough to change the default ssh pass. Sigh.

And, a Mac OS X install, out of the box is secure. You can put it out on the interwebs raw and it will be fine. Windows - XP especially - not so much.









It's Monday. I'm cranky 

[Inigo Montoya]

Certainly not xp. Vista is better and 7 is better still but unless you really limit yourself, I wouldn't go without some protection.

That gif is funny!

[Inigo Montoya]

So what is your point mystic? I think it was pretty clear. Does a specialized tool do a lot of things? Not usually. So it does not do a lot of things, in no way does that say it has NO place.

[mystic_1]

My point:

Just because something is target at a particular application, doesn't mean it has no "real world" usability.  Quite the opposite.

Repeated a few times now, in response to your position that specialized tools don't have much usability.  On the contrary, they are eminently usable for their intended purposes.  My remote control only controls devices on my entertainment center, would you say that it doesn't have much usability?  Because members of my family who use it all the time think it's quite usable.

Keep in mind, you're the one who invited me to find that quote for you, I guess you don't remember what you typed?

Oh and weren't you "done" with this thread, like 20-some posts ago?

We obviously have differing opinions on what "done" means!  LOL

mystic_1

[Inigo Montoya]

I would not consider a remote specialized as 1 remote can control a number of things. Say a sony remote will probably control a number of different models. So not much of an example.

But you still have not found anything, you THINK you did but you are just seeing it how you want to see it.

I was done but you missed me so much. Why else would you try to talk to me AND keep talking!

[mystic_1]

You keep asking questions

mystic_1

[Inigo Montoya]

No one said you have to answer

[mystic_1]

True, but I'm not the one who claimed to be done with the thread lol.

mystic_1

[Inigo Montoya]

No but you beckoned me back.

[mystic_1]

Haha no not really.


However I will point out that if you ask a question or make statements in a public forum, it shouldn't surprise you if someone answers.  If you only want responses from people who agree with you, then you should have done like that one guy and laid out all the Rules Of The Thread in advance

I gotta ask though, what point ARE you trying to make?  Because as I said earlier when someone disagrees with your statements you change the subject!

Alternately, if you really are done, just let this thread die, or ignore it.  You're also, as the thread originator, able to delete it or lock it I think.

mystic_1