Topic: End of Democracy... anyone care??

[Duke McDukiedook]

But Brown,

You have to understand the slide happened after that war, the war the banking industrialists won.

It was never a war about slavery- the war was essentially agrarian economy Vs banking/industrialism economy.

Guess who won in the end, this is part of the reason the federal government (federalists, followers of Hamilton) have too much power to this day- and everyone complains. The federal government has been gaining powers ever since, pretty much unchecked.

They don't even have to declare war anymore to wage it.

It really does go back that far.

[wardenerd]

In 1975 the first company I worked for formed a Political Action Committee and tried to elect an Air Force Ace that could not get elected in two other states where he actually had lived .  Nancy Pelosi is from a Baltimore political machine that was run like Chicago by her father and her husband is a multi-millionair anti union guy.  The two senators from California are independently wealthy.  None have ever had a job and they are all Good DEMS so what difference does it make? 

Truth is I lived  when the US was at its height and it is down hill from here.  Fortunately I planned for my retirement and old age so unless the bottom falls out I can make it.  My kids on the other hand will never live as well as I have and that is a real shame. Between overzealous diversity and some stupid idea that life is fair and everyone deserves the same things no matter how sorry or stupid they are we have become a country of whiners and parasites.  It happens to every republic eventually and it has nothing to do with corporate contributions.

[Brown Bomber]

But Brown,

You have to understand the slide happened after that war, the war the banking industrialists won.

It was never a war about slavery- the war was essentially agrarian economy Vs banking/industrialism economy.

Guess who won in the end, this is part of the reason the federal government (federalists, followers of Hamilton) have too much power to this day- and everyone complains. The federal government has been gaining powers ever since, pretty much unchecked.

They don't even have to declare war anymore to wage it.

It really does go back that far.

Point well taken Dukie, that's what I like to see here, something we can learn from, not prejudice under handed name calling.

[Rocking-M]

Guess who won in the end, this is part of the reason the federal government (federalists, followers of Hamilton) have too much power to this day- and everyone complains. The federal government has been gaining powers ever since, pretty much unchecked.

They don't even have to declare war anymore to wage it.

It really does go back that far.

I may have decided to eject to soon.

Great points, I might add that even Hamilton would have turned over in his grave at the idea that a centralized federal government would become so strong here that it would invade sovereign States. He even said that could not happen as this power was not to be granted to the 'General' Government in his "Federalist Papers" writings.

It's not tyranny we desire; it's a just, limited, federal government.
Alexander Hamilton

The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the State, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. Hamilton Federalist N0. 28

The State governments by their original constitutions are invested with complete sovereignty. Hamilton Federalist No. 31

"But ambitious encroachment of the federal government on the  authority of the State governments would not excite the opposition of a single State, or of a few States only. They would be signals of general alarm. Every government would espouse the common cause. A correspondence would be opened. Plans of resistance would be concerted. One spirit would animate and conduct the whole. The same combinations, in short, would result from an apprehension of the federal government, as produced by the dread of a foreign, yoke; and unless the projected innovations should be voluntarily renounced, the same trail by force would be made in the one case as was made in the other." Madison Federalist 46


 Hence my contentions from the get go that for the Federal to be returned to it's intended decentralized place a State or group of States must secede. Peacefully would be the idea and the
case tried in the courts will be the only way, that may lead to an out right military rule of the country should the Courts rightly recognize the "States right" to self-government. This will sound the general alarm among the people I am sure. But, Should the precedent be set by a successful peaceful State secession, the federal government
may rightly be reined in by the States that remain.

[edbikerii]

Listen, RM, won't you consider sticking around?  The stupidity that pissed you off is the VERY REASON why you should.

Without the voices of reason, the stupidity can just run amok, with no bounds whatsoever.

(that's what I keep telling myself, every time I post in a political thread here)

[MickeyX]

What really amazes me over these political threads is... how many of them end up having people not like each other and/or leave the forum? Almost everyone has ended up that way. Why haven't we learned from this yet? How about no more political threads? Afterall, not everyone has the same political system since we are from many different countries.

There have been false claims made on both sides, distorting the truth, but not intentionally as far as I can tell. It's just, that's how they learned it and that's what they believe to be true.

Instead of getting pissed at each other, how about you get pissed at our "historians" and politicians for lying about #$%* all these years?  All of our forefathers had an agenda and that agenda skewed our historical documentation. No one had it truly right because they all saw it as how it affected them. With emotion/pride/money mixed in, there is no truth in history. It's called "his story" for a reason, instead of "the facts".

FFS, let it go!!! Go ride and put a smile on your face.


Don't make me come over there.   

[paulages]

i've got no beef with RM at all. it is possible to disagree and not dislike a person. contrary to ed's statement, i don't feel all that "emotional" about it at all. RM seems like a smart guy. i've had plenty of conversations like this and then had a beer over it afterwards. just because you adamantly disagree with something someone says does not mean you area passing judgment on that person as a whole, nor does it have to end in a hissy fit. the closest i came to doing that was expressing what the black southerner standing next to me felt in regards to what was being said, and i accept the fact that i was participating in this statement as the messenger. i found it relevant to the discussion.

i don't usually like to participate in "political" threads, because it's usually like trying to convince someone to give up on their favorite football team and choose another. i thought topics in this thread had more of a philosophical nature, which is where i think these political boundaries can be broken. as usual though, certain people can't help but draw lines and chose sides which is where things become unproductive.

i'll say it again directly to you Robert (if i may call you that): i agree with most of what you're saying, and ironically i think the "yankees" here just can't get much of what we're talking about, even if we're not agreeing on certain points. that's not to say that there's some intellectual disconnect (someone's gonna get up in arms about saying that), but the culture of the south is deep and truly not understood outside of it. i don't think you're a racist, i just disagreed with some of what you said. no hard feelings. ride safe, and i hope you stick around.

[ofreen]

How about no more political threads? Afterall, not everyone has the same political system since we are from many different countries.

I am on a couple of other technical forums that strongly discourage (to the point of banning participants) open thread discussion of political topics.  Those forums are rather sterile and boring.  It is interesting to me to see what people are thinking.  It is interesting because of all our differences, we all share one thing, and that is interest in old Japanese motorcycles.  With this in common, we still are a very diverse bunch with different points of view.  There is more to the world than the best way to change out a tach drive seal.  The structure of this forum allows diverse discussions by people from all over the world.  The same structure also allows those who do not want to participate in the political discussions to avoid them.  I like hearing other perspectives.  I nearly always learn something.  I found out a long time ago that if I want to learn something new, it is more likely that I will listening to someone I disagree with than someone I do.  Sure the exchanges can get heated, but we have able moderators that can handle that if need be.  As Bob has demonstrated in this thread.

I have a hard time understanding those who demand a thread be locked or deleted because they don't like the way the thread is going.  Why not just stay away from the thread?  This is a sincere question, not a criticism.

[Rocking-M]

Listen, RM, won't you consider sticking around?  The stupidity that pissed you off is the VERY REASON why you should.

Without the voices of reason, the stupidity can just run amok, with no bounds whatsoever.

(that's what I keep telling myself, every time I post in a political thread here)

Ed and Ofreen, I'll stick, I know I contribute to the stupidity sometimes but hope I can give a bit of insight when I'm not.
Besides, it's nice to start over, I'm not an old timer any more. 

[edbikerii]

HOO RAH!  Tragedy averted!

Listen, RM, won't you consider sticking around?  The stupidity that pissed you off is the VERY REASON why you should.

Without the voices of reason, the stupidity can just run amok, with no bounds whatsoever.

(that's what I keep telling myself, every time I post in a political thread here)

Ed and Ofreen, I'll stick, I know I contribute to the stupidity sometimes but hope I can give a bit of insight when I'm not.
Besides, it's nice to start over, I'm not an old timer any more. 

[Retro Rocket]

i've got no beef with RM at all. it is possible to disagree and not dislike a person.

Neither di I until this arsehole sent me a ridiculous email ....

Deleted by moderator - PM and email not to be posted on here

RM ...you are welcome to post my reply, i now, without doubt think you are a complete idiot and i really love the way you right wing idiots only hear what you want to hear and believe what you want to believe, even if that was not the intention or the point. Like i said in my reply to you, get the #$%* over yourself and stop sending me small minded and pathetic emails trying to justify your pathetic views....


Mick

Time to lock this Bull#$%* thread.

[HavocTurbo]

Listen, RM, won't you consider sticking around?  The stupidity that pissed you off is the VERY REASON why you should.

Without the voices of reason, the stupidity can just run amok, with no bounds whatsoever.

(that's what I keep telling myself, every time I post in a political thread here)

I've now gone back and read the whole thread....

I've seen no stupidity in here anywhere. All I see are people voicing their opinions and backing them up with personal, and in some cases historical, emotions.

What really irritates me is the sudden knee jerk reaction posts by a select few people (you and me included ED) who really stir up the emotional junk.

When I was in school we were told that Lincoln used the issue of slavery to enlist the public opinion on his side of the issues at hand. And how is that any different than what happened after 9/11? Not to belittle the tragedy of that many civilians lost, but we as a nation are far from innocent. We have allowed our country to spiral down into this deep dark abyss and now that we are here we feel there is nothing we can do as individuals.

My opinion is the same on this as it is for every issue. Where we are as a nation is a product of our inability to stand up and say "no" to our government "representatives".

One of our Reps said on local tv that regardless of how many people called or wrote to his office to do the contrary, he was going to vote to impeach then President Clinton because he thought it was the right thing to do.

And what did he get for his blatant disregard of his voters wishes? He got re-elected.



And after that.... Mick and RM and the email.... lock it.

[Bob Wessner]

OK, it's locked. Private communications between members, be they PM's or eMails are not to be shared on the forum.