Author Topic: End of Democracy... anyone care??  (Read 14858 times)

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Rocking-M

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2010, 12:55:44 PM »

That's something unique to your area perhaps. When I had to buy the digital box for my rabbit ear TV in the garage, I picked up more PBS stations as well as a few others I wasn't getting on rabbit ears alone.

we're in the sticks, it's a conspiracy to get more folks to move to the city, I'm all for it.
Someone has to live in the cities.  ;)

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2010, 12:59:07 PM »

That's something unique to your area perhaps. When I had to buy the digital box for my rabbit ear TV in the garage, I picked up more PBS stations as well as a few others I wasn't getting on rabbit ears alone.

we're in the sticks, it's a conspiracy to get more folks to move to the city, I'm all for it.
Someone has to live in the cities.  ;)
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2010, 02:25:42 PM »
I find it interesting that two pivotal figures on opposite sides of a bitter struggle would espouse the same principles.   


[Our situation] illustrates the American idea that governments rest on the consent of the governed, and that it is the right of the people to alter or abolish them whenever they become destructive of the ends for which they were established.”

Jefferson Davis


Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.

Abraham Lincoln
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline edbikerii

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2010, 02:39:39 PM »
Hey, did Lincoln say this before or after he imposed those crippling Civil War reparations on the south?

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.

Abraham Lincoln

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Offline Swede

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2010, 02:54:11 PM »
Those are two very great quotes.  Now we just need to pry people away from the T.V.  The only way there is ever going to be any kind of change in how our government operates is when the middle class is completely destroyed.  When they no longer have their entertainment and all of the toys that credit can buy then they will decide to do something.  As long as you can keep the middle class entertained and content with the newest technology they will continue to ignore the corruption in our government.  

We have just perfected what the Romans started with the Coliseum.  If you keep people entertained then they wont pay attention to what the Government is doing.  

Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2010, 03:06:14 PM »
Hey, did Lincoln say this before or after he imposed those crippling Civil War reparations on the south?

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.

Abraham Lincoln

Actually, Lincoln himself wanted to reunite the States as quickly as possible and treat the CSA as a member of the family you have reconciled with. The soreheads in  Congress felt he was too soft and rejected his first plan as too soft. Since he wanted them to  After he was assassinated by John Wilkes booth, soreheads were able to steamroll his VP Johnson into establish Carpetbagger Governments and the other punitive crap.

He wanted this, which was considered too soft:

 "And I do further proclaim, declare, and make known, that whenever, in any of the States of Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina, a number of persons, not less than one-tenth in number of the votes cast in such State at the Presidential election of the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty, each having taken the oath aforesaid and not having since violated it, and being a qualified voter by the election law of the State existing immediately before the so-called act of secession, and excluding all others, shall re-establish a State government which shall be republican, and in no wise contravening said oath, such shall be recognized as the true government of the State, and the State shall receive thereunder the benefits of the constitutional provision which declares that 'The United States shall guaranty to every State in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and, on application of the legislature, or the executive, (when the legislature cannot be convened), against domestic violence."

The word republican was not used as it is today. It was used to in conjunction with the word republic, and not a political party.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

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Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2010, 03:11:34 PM »
Those are two very great quotes.  Now we just need to pry people away from the T.V.  The only way there is ever going to be any kind of change in how our government operates is when the middle class is completely destroyed.  When they no longer have their entertainment and all of the toys that credit can buy then they will decide to do something.  As long as you can keep the middle class entertained and content with the newest technology they will continue to ignore the corruption in our government.  

We have just perfected what the Romans started with the Coliseum.  If you keep people entertained then they wont pay attention to what the Government is doing.  
I thin you are correct and that is happening now, this last meltdown caused by self appointed Royalty in the financial sector and the damage they caused to the middle class, has opened a lot of eyes. These "Royals" handing out big bonuses after taking handouts has not gone unnoticed.  With one out of 10 people out of work and those with jobs looking over their shoulders, they woke up and are paying attention. Expect change.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Achmed

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2010, 03:31:17 PM »
Those are two very great quotes.  Now we just need to pry people away from the T.V.  The only way there is ever going to be any kind of change in how our government operates is when the middle class is completely destroyed.  When they no longer have their entertainment and all of the toys that credit can buy then they will decide to do something.  As long as you can keep the middle class entertained and content with the newest technology they will continue to ignore the corruption in our government.  

We have just perfected what the Romans started with the Coliseum.  If you keep people entertained then they wont pay attention to what the Government is doing.  
I thin you are correct and that is happening now, this last meltdown caused by self appointed Royalty in the financial sector and the damage they caused to the middle class, has opened a lot of eyes. These "Royals" handing out big bonuses after taking handouts has not gone unnoticed.  With one out of 10 people out of work and those with jobs looking over their shoulders, they woke up and are paying attention. Expect change.
I'm enjoying this relatively civil (not like the war!) thread. I think you guys are pretty much right on the mark. There is something I gotta take issue with in BobbyR's post. Not sure if you feel this way, BobbyR, but I hear so many people complaining about CEO and financial bigwig bonuses, and I don't think most folks realize why there are such large bonuses offered to top leadership.

They are the most sought-after candidates in the world of business, and are often leaders in areas outside their business. In this economic system, they are massively powerful individuals and exert a great influence in worldwide affairs. One of their decisions sends 15,000 jobs from one country to another, all for that dollar. They are worth more than their weight in gold. Not to me personally, but to Boards of Directors all across the globe. If you want to make money as a Board, you better get the most top-dog leader in the world at your helm. Money made is money paid is coffers laid, and a good chunk of that goes back to the same corporations through the cycle of wages to expenditures through middlemen and back to the coffers.

Offline Achmed

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2010, 03:38:29 PM »
In the great cycle of world commerce, everyone takes a bite of the dollar. From the girl who glues your boots together on the other side of the world to the factory owner to the currency men, to the local authorities, and on and on to the man at the top. Then into thousands of stocks of corporations-spread digitally across the world in real time. You are taking bites of untold dollars stretching across the globe. All bites are different sizes. The ones who struggle for the biggest bites in the most cunning ways get to the top, where they stay king of the hill into perpetuity, Paris Hilton.

Rocking-M

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2010, 03:58:34 PM »
Hey, did Lincoln say this before or after he imposed those crippling Civil War reparations on the south?

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.

Abraham Lincoln


that was before the his invasion of the South. If I remember correctly in was in the Lincoln/Douglas debates.

Rocking-M

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2010, 04:16:06 PM »

Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.

Abraham Lincoln


 "And I do further proclaim, declare, and make known, that whenever, in any of the States of Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, South Carolina, and North Carolina, a number of persons, not less than one-tenth in number of the votes cast in such State at the Presidential election of the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty, each having taken the oath aforesaid and not having since violated it, and being a qualified voter by the election law of the State existing immediately before the so-called act of secession, and excluding all others, shall re-establish a State government which shall be republican, and in no wise contravening said oath, such shall be recognized as the true government of the State, and the State shall receive thereunder the benefits of the constitutional provision which declares that 'The United States shall guaranty to every State in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; and, on application of the legislature, or the executive, (when the legislature cannot be convened), against domestic violence."

The word republican was not used as it is today. It was used to in conjunction with the word republic, and not a political party.

Lincoln was the consumate politician, able to say one thing to garner support and then do another. He needed shooting but shouldn't have been shot for then history would correctly reveal how he usurped the constitution for his political goals. The largest error he commented was a complete denial of the understanding of just who "we the people are". That being clearly discussed in the Federalist papers as well as the anti-federalist. "We the people" being of the individual States and not the mass of men who inhabit the union
at the time. The other being that we were then a voluntary union, one formed between the several States of their own volition.
Which is true to the principles he in fact stated. So with that in mind, any State wanting to go it's on way for what ever reason has the recognized right to do so. It's not a granted right either but an inalienable right. That is why neither Rhode Island or North Carolina were force to join the union under the Constitution which replace the Articles of Confederation which was our general government in the union until the Constitution (which was written in violation of the actual charter for the Continental Congress which was to convene to amend the Articles of Confederation). This right of the States to go their own way was recognized when many Northern States discussed leaving over the Louisiana purchase. No Southern states then (1803 or there abouts) sought to invade the North to force a union by fire and sword. We know what Lincoln did (less than 60 years later) was force a union at bayonet and for that he should have been shot as a usurper of the constitution and a man who had no real belief in the right of men to their own form of government.

An ideal form of government is democracy tempered with assassination.
Voltaire


« Last Edit: January 29, 2010, 04:18:50 PM by Rocking-M »

Offline Achmed

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2010, 04:34:48 PM »
Whoa, I never knew all this about Lincoln!

Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2010, 05:31:31 PM »
Those are two very great quotes.  Now we just need to pry people away from the T.V.  The only way there is ever going to be any kind of change in how our government operates is when the middle class is completely destroyed.  When they no longer have their entertainment and all of the toys that credit can buy then they will decide to do something.  As long as you can keep the middle class entertained and content with the newest technology they will continue to ignore the corruption in our government.  

We have just perfected what the Romans started with the Coliseum.  If you keep people entertained then they wont pay attention to what the Government is doing.  
I thin you are correct and that is happening now, this last meltdown caused by self appointed Royalty in the financial sector and the damage they caused to the middle class, has opened a lot of eyes. These "Royals" handing out big bonuses after taking handouts has not gone unnoticed.  With one out of 10 people out of work and those with jobs looking over their shoulders, they woke up and are paying attention. Expect change.
I'm enjoying this relatively civil (not like the war!) thread. I think you guys are pretty much right on the mark. There is something I gotta take issue with in BobbyR's post. Not sure if you feel this way, BobbyR, but I hear so many people complaining about CEO and financial bigwig bonuses, and I don't think most folks realize why there are such large bonuses offered to top leadership.

They are the most sought-after candidates in the world of business, and are often leaders in areas outside their business. In this economic system, they are massively powerful individuals and exert a great influence in worldwide affairs. One of their decisions sends 15,000 jobs from one country to another, all for that dollar. They are worth more than their weight in gold. Not to me personally, but to Boards of Directors all across the globe. If you want to make money as a Board, you better get the most top-dog leader in the world at your helm. Money made is money paid is coffers laid, and a good chunk of that goes back to the same corporations through the cycle of wages to expenditures through middlemen and back to the coffers.
I take no exception to your exception, but I think I should explain myself. Many of us are on "pay for performance", it would seem that many of these CEOs are rewarded no matter how badly the Company does. They are actually not employees at all they have contracts. When you discuss the Boards of Directors, studies have been done which show that members of Boards seem to be members of other Boards, so there is a relatively small number of people sitting on the Boards of the major enterprises.
This small group has a vested interest in perpetuating this system. So when a CEO or his top guys blow it, they get a rewarded and they lay off enough "resources" to raise the stock prices.

There has always been a wealthy class in the US, but they had some shame, this bunch has no shame, they think they are now above it all.  
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Achmed

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2010, 06:00:34 PM »
Those are two very great quotes.  Now we just need to pry people away from the T.V.  The only way there is ever going to be any kind of change in how our government operates is when the middle class is completely destroyed.  When they no longer have their entertainment and all of the toys that credit can buy then they will decide to do something.  As long as you can keep the middle class entertained and content with the newest technology they will continue to ignore the corruption in our government.  

We have just perfected what the Romans started with the Coliseum.  If you keep people entertained then they wont pay attention to what the Government is doing.  
I thin you are correct and that is happening now, this last meltdown caused by self appointed Royalty in the financial sector and the damage they caused to the middle class, has opened a lot of eyes. These "Royals" handing out big bonuses after taking handouts has not gone unnoticed.  With one out of 10 people out of work and those with jobs looking over their shoulders, they woke up and are paying attention. Expect change.
I'm enjoying this relatively civil (not like the war!) thread. I think you guys are pretty much right on the mark. There is something I gotta take issue with in BobbyR's post. Not sure if you feel this way, BobbyR, but I hear so many people complaining about CEO and financial bigwig bonuses, and I don't think most folks realize why there are such large bonuses offered to top leadership.

They are the most sought-after candidates in the world of business, and are often leaders in areas outside their business. In this economic system, they are massively powerful individuals and exert a great influence in worldwide affairs. One of their decisions sends 15,000 jobs from one country to another, all for that dollar. They are worth more than their weight in gold. Not to me personally, but to Boards of Directors all across the globe. If you want to make money as a Board, you better get the most top-dog leader in the world at your helm. Money made is money paid is coffers laid, and a good chunk of that goes back to the same corporations through the cycle of wages to expenditures through middlemen and back to the coffers.
I take no exception to your exception, but I think I should explain myself. Many of us are on "pay for performance", it would seem that many of these CEOs are rewarded no matter how badly the Company does. They are actually not employees at all they have contracts. When you discuss the Boards of Directors, studies have been done which show that members of Boards seem to be members of other Boards, so there is a relatively small number of people sitting on the Boards of the major enterprises.
This small group has a vested interest in perpetuating this system. So when a CEO or his top guys blow it, they get a rewarded and they lay off enough "resources" to raise the stock prices.

There has always been a wealthy class in the US, but they had some shame, this bunch has no shame, they think they are now above it all.  

Sure the power is concentrated at the top. Is it more concentrated than in other countries or societies? Maybe about the same by hook or by crook? I think there is definitely a worldwide market for these guys. Kind of like a free market. The phrase "free market" doesn't seem to have a lot of meaning to me. Market forces affect everyone, whether it's called a free market or not.

That brings me to another tangent: for all the corruption we hear about in Afghanistan or the African countries, does anyone think we don't have that here also? Like because they have their economic and government systems structured differently that they have more corruption or less? I think it is just expressed in more subtle or hidden layers throughout the world. Everyone has their own way of being corrupt. Everyone has their own way of acknowledging it, and everyone categorizes it according to its manifestation.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2010, 06:03:55 PM »
Whoa, I never knew all this about Lincoln!
Yes he was a very astute Politician and the tensions between parties was at a pitch at the time of his election. The War between the States allowed Lincoln to recreate the States into a unified nation in what many feel was his own image. I would like to think that if given time the tensions may have sorted themselves out, maybe I am wrong.

The treatment of the South during and after the War was dead wrong. The Union Generals like Sherman went over the top and caused death and destruction beyond what was necessary. The South was treated badly after the war and that is undeniable.

Now, here is what would seem a paradox. The Americans living in the former Confederate States are today some of your most patriotic Americans. I served with many Southerners and while we joked back and forth, when the sh1t hit the fan, they were there.

Whenever I visit a short track race on a Saturday night in the deep south, everyone stood and took off their hats when the National Anthem plays and the Stars and Stripes makes it's lap. On every truck and car in the parking lot has the Stars and Bars on it somewhere, but they are also Americans.  
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2010, 06:34:12 PM »
Yep, Lincoln would have been Hamiton's wet dream realized.

And as a whole, we all suffer for it.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #92 on: February 02, 2010, 03:50:33 PM »
Whoa, I never knew all this about Lincoln!
Yes he was a very astute Politician and the tensions between parties was at a pitch at the time of his election. The War between the States allowed Lincoln to recreate the States into a unified nation in what many feel was his own image. I would like to think that if given time the tensions may have sorted themselves out, maybe I am wrong.

The treatment of the South during and after the War was dead wrong. The Union Generals like Sherman went over the top and caused death and destruction beyond what was necessary. The South was treated badly after the war and that is undeniable.

Now, here is what would seem a paradox. The Americans living in the former Confederate States are today some of your most patriotic Americans. I served with many Southerners and while we joked back and forth, when the sh1t hit the fan, they were there.

Whenever I visit a short track race on a Saturday night in the deep south, everyone stood and took off their hats when the National Anthem plays and the Stars and Stripes makes it's lap. On every truck and car in the parking lot has the Stars and Bars on it somewhere, but they are also Americans.  

I really don't agree with you at all on this.  There was conflict between the states over whether new territories/states would allow slave ownership long before the war started.  The South saw power slipping away if more states outlawed slavery and the legality of slave ownership could be in jeopardy.  War was coming sooner or later and it just reached the breaking point when Lincoln was elected.  I shed no tears over the defeat of the South.  To those defending, rationalizing, or romanticizing a socioeconomic system based on slavery your reasoning is inexcusable.  Likewise the stars and bars, it's not even worthy to use as a doormat.  All this talk about states rights has in the past just been code words for segregation and legalized voter suppression and intimidation.  The fact that these practices remained long after the Civil War tells me the North wasn't tough enough.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 04:34:22 PM by srust58 »

Rocking-M

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #93 on: February 02, 2010, 04:33:45 PM »
 All this talk about states rights has in the past just been code words for segregation and legalized voter suppression and intimidation.  The fact that these practices remained long after the Civil War tells me the North wasn't tough enough.

evidently you are not a student of history. Perhaps a bit of study on your part would bring a bit more intelligence to your argument.

Here is something you might take a look at for instance. 1832 or so and the tariffs place on Southern States which almost brought about
secession by some southern States.

As to you last little jab, why don't you bring your sorry ass down here and see how tough you can be.

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #94 on: February 02, 2010, 05:09:03 PM »
All this talk about states rights has in the past just been code words for segregation and legalized voter suppression and intimidation.  The fact that these practices remained long after the Civil War tells me the North wasn't tough enough.

evidently you are not a student of history. Perhaps a bit of study on your part would bring a bit more intelligence to your argument.

Here is something you might take a look at for instance. 1832 or so and the tariffs place on Southern States which almost brought about
secession by some southern States.

As to you last little jab, why don't you bring your sorry ass down here and see how tough you can be.

    Ever heard of the States Rights Democratic Party sometimes known as the Dixiecrats?  Slogan was segregation forever.  They ran Strom Thurmond as a presidential candidate in 1948.  Just look up George Wallace, Strom Thurmond, Dixiecrats, or states rights and maybe get an education.  Dixiecrat may not have the same meaning today as it once did but notice I said "in the past" when I mentioned states rights.  Maybe I stated it poorly but I did not mean to say the North should have been more destructive in the war but meant that they were not tough enough in rooting out segregation after the war.
    Personal I have absolutely no connection to any of this as my family came from Denmark in 1901 so I am not as emotionally invested as you seem to be but you need to get over this ass whooping as it did happen 150 years ago.  Did you not expect a shot across the bow after making the crackpot statement about Lincoln needing to be shot?
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 05:49:59 PM by srust58 »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #95 on: February 02, 2010, 05:29:58 PM »
Whoa, I never knew all this about Lincoln!
Yes he was a very astute Politician and the tensions between parties was at a pitch at the time of his election. The War between the States allowed Lincoln to recreate the States into a unified nation in what many feel was his own image. I would like to think that if given time the tensions may have sorted themselves out, maybe I am wrong.

The treatment of the South during and after the War was dead wrong. The Union Generals like Sherman went over the top and caused death and destruction beyond what was necessary. The South was treated badly after the war and that is undeniable.

Now, here is what would seem a paradox. The Americans living in the former Confederate States are today some of your most patriotic Americans. I served with many Southerners and while we joked back and forth, when the sh1t hit the fan, they were there.

Whenever I visit a short track race on a Saturday night in the deep south, everyone stood and took off their hats when the National Anthem plays and the Stars and Stripes makes it's lap. On every truck and car in the parking lot has the Stars and Bars on it somewhere, but they are also Americans.  

I really don't agree with you at all on this.  There was conflict between the states over whether new territories/states would allow slave ownership long before the war started.  The South saw power slipping away if more states outlawed slavery and the legality of slave ownership could be in jeopardy.  War was coming sooner or later and it just reached the breaking point when Lincoln was elected.  I shed no tears over the defeat of the South.  To those defending, rationalizing, or romanticizing a socioeconomic system based on slavery your reasoning is inexcusable.  Likewise the stars and bars, it's not even worthy to use as a doormat.  All this talk about states rights has in the past just been code words for segregation and legalized voter suppression and intimidation.  The fact that these practices remained long after the Civil War tells me the North wasn't tough enough.
I would guess you have never spent much time in the South or with Southerners. I served with them and saw white boys drag black boys into choppers. I see they way they interact. Each one understands the other more than they do up North and they are more comfortable amongst each other.

Not to stir up some noise, but I have watched plenty of short track races in the South, when the American Flag comes out, the hats come off. Most of our largest military installations are in the former Confederate States. To many the little Confederate flag on the bumper is just a show of pride.

Interesting factiod. When Texas joined the Union, they insisted they retain the right to leave the Union. The other State that retained that right is New York, yep New York.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #96 on: February 02, 2010, 06:13:23 PM »
It's not really about patriotism.  People in Oregon, Maine, Alabama, or Arizona are just as patriotic as the other and location has little to do with it.  That wasn't my argument and I am not questioning anyone's patriotism.  I just don't understand what "pride" is being shown displaying the stars and bars.  My feelings are known and I stand by them.   And yeah, I've been around. In my old job I held for 20 years we worked all over the country for long and short periods of time.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 06:21:40 PM by srust58 »

Offline BobbyR

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #97 on: February 02, 2010, 06:47:08 PM »
It's not really about patriotism.  People in Oregon, Maine, Alabama, or Arizona are just as patriotic as the other and location has little to do with it.  That wasn't my argument and I am not questioning anyone's patriotism.  I just don't understand what "pride" is being shown displaying the stars and bars.  My feelings are known and I stand by them.   And yeah, I've been around. In my old job I held for 20 years we worked all over the country for long and short periods of time.
The Stars and Bars are an expression of Southern pride. It is also an artifact of a bygone era. No State is going to leave the Union. The World has moved on. An itty bitty flag on a back window will not change America.
Dedicated to Sgt. Howard Bruckner 1950 - 1969. KIA LONG KHANH.

But we were boys, and boys will be boys, and so they will. To us, everything was dangerous, but what of that? Had we not been made to live forever?

Rocking-M

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #98 on: February 03, 2010, 09:51:55 AM »
Rust, your steeped in modern history. Sure I know of the Dixiecrats, you ever wonder why such a thing would come about
in the South, where prejudice was recognized as  being less than in the North prior to the Invasion and subsequent fix
from the invaders. (Read de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" for an unbiased view of that).
Racial tension was manufactured by the North to insure a need for government intervention.

A few other facts for you,
less than 10% of Southerners owned slaves. Do you think the other 90% fought to preserve an institution that
did not benefit them?
Free Blacks and Indians owned slaves within that 10%, so we've cut white ownership % down a bit more.

Lincoln said, "Let the South go, where would we get our revenues."
The South exported more cotton than the gnp of the North in 1860.

Several Northern States banned free negroes from moving into their States prior to the war.

Where Northern Officers anti-slavery...hardly.
The following quotes are from northern contemporaries of Lincoln.

from John Sherman, "I hear from all sources that nearly all of the officers in Buell's army, and that Buell himself, are pro-slavery in the last degree"

General Stanton to Secretary Stanton, 20 Sept. 1862, "I find a feeling prevailing among the officers and soldiers of prejudice against the
blacks"

I could go on. Suffice to say, the War of Northern Aggression was not fought to free blacks.

Did Lincoln deserve shooting?
From Gen. Donn Piatt on Lincoln, "Fictitious heroes are being reared to the memories of men whose real histories, when they come to be known, will make this bronze and marble the monuments of our ignorance and folly."

"With us when a leader dies, all good men go to lying about him, and, from the monument that covers his remains to the last echo of the rural press, in speeches, sermons, eulogies and reminiscences, we have naught but pious lies."

Colonel Theodore Roosevelt, in a speech at Grand Rapids, 8 Sept. 1900, said that in 1864 "on every hand Lincoln was denounced as a tyrant, a shedder of blood, a foe to liberty, a would-be dictator, a founder of an empire--one orator saying, "We also have our emperor, Lincoln, who can tell stale jokes while the land is running red with the blood of brothers."

Should you like to examine the "real" Lincoln here are a couple good reads.

http://rexcurry.net/pledgeofallegiance-abraham-lincoln-nazism.html
(clearly shows he should have been shot as a war criminal)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/574028/posts



I disagree Bobby, this forced union will split again. Which States do it is up for grabs. As stated in the other article
we are no different than the Soviet Union prior to it's split up. As to Texas, isn't it interesting that a State which joined
the Union with the added emphasis that it could redraw at anytime was force back in less than 20 years later.
I would add that not only did NY and Texas state this right in their constitutions but also Virginia's clearly stated
the right to do so. This right, and inalienable right to self-government was understood by every State that voluntarily joined
the union. Some State's saw the need to make sure it was found in their constitutions as they joined because they
knew that down the road a few years clear rights would be clouded by men who seek power.

What I find most disheartening is that Southerners see the need to try and convince yankees of their patriotism by what is
in fact faux patriotism. Patriotism has nothing to do with supporting the government in unjust wars. Southerners need to examine their history themselves and not the yankee victors history.

Offline paulages

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Re: End of Democracy... anyone care??
« Reply #99 on: February 03, 2010, 01:00:33 PM »
Rust, your steeped in modern history. Sure I know of the Dixiecrats, you ever wonder why such a thing would come about
in the South, where prejudice was recognized as  being less than in the North prior to the Invasion and subsequent fix
from the invaders. (Read de Tocqueville's "Democracy in America" for an unbiased view of that).
Racial tension was manufactured by the North to insure a need for government intervention.

A few other facts for you,
less than 10% of Southerners owned slaves. Do you think the other 90% fought to preserve an institution that
did not benefit them?
Free Blacks and Indians owned slaves within that 10%, so we've cut white ownership % down a bit more.

Lincoln said, "Let the South go, where would we get our revenues."
The South exported more cotton than the gnp of the North in 1860.

Several Northern States banned free negroes from moving into their States prior to the war.

Where Northern Officers anti-slavery...hardly.
The following quotes are from northern contemporaries of Lincoln.

from John Sherman, "I hear from all sources that nearly all of the officers in Buell's army, and that Buell himself, are pro-slavery in the last degree"

General Stanton to Secretary Stanton, 20 Sept. 1862, "I find a feeling prevailing among the officers and soldiers of prejudice against the
blacks"

I could go on. Suffice to say, the War of Northern Aggression was not fought to free blacks.

Did Lincoln deserve shooting?
From Gen. Donn Piatt on Lincoln, "Fictitious heroes are being reared to the memories of men whose real histories, when they come to be known, will make this bronze and marble the monuments of our ignorance and folly."

"With us when a leader dies, all good men go to lying about him, and, from the monument that covers his remains to the last echo of the rural press, in speeches, sermons, eulogies and reminiscences, we have naught but pious lies."

Colonel Theodore Roosevelt, in a speech at Grand Rapids, 8 Sept. 1900, said that in 1864 "on every hand Lincoln was denounced as a tyrant, a shedder of blood, a foe to liberty, a would-be dictator, a founder of an empire--one orator saying, "We also have our emperor, Lincoln, who can tell stale jokes while the land is running red with the blood of brothers."

Should you like to examine the "real" Lincoln here are a couple good reads.

http://rexcurry.net/pledgeofallegiance-abraham-lincoln-nazism.html
(clearly shows he should have been shot as a war criminal)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/574028/posts



I disagree Bobby, this forced union will split again. Which States do it is up for grabs. As stated in the other article
we are no different than the Soviet Union prior to it's split up. As to Texas, isn't it interesting that a State which joined
the Union with the added emphasis that it could redraw at anytime was force back in less than 20 years later.
I would add that not only did NY and Texas state this right in their constitutions but also Virginia's clearly stated
the right to do so. This right, and inalienable right to self-government was understood by every State that voluntarily joined
the union. Some State's saw the need to make sure it was found in their constitutions as they joined because they
knew that down the road a few years clear rights would be clouded by men who seek power.

What I find most disheartening is that Southerners see the need to try and convince yankees of their patriotism by what is
in fact faux patriotism. Patriotism has nothing to do with supporting the government in unjust wars. Southerners need to examine their history themselves and not the yankee victors history.

I grew up in the deep south, so I understand the southern view of the "war of northern aggression" well. I agree that the war was all about economics and federal power, but to deny racial tension is a little silly and offensive to the people of this nation whose descendents were brought here in chains on boats. Do you really think there was no tension among the enslaved towards their 'masters?" Even among whites, virginia had the likes of john brown. History tells us that racial tension was also prominant in the north, and I believe is actually worse than the south in modern times. In any case, I don't think this was your point but couldn't help but comment.

The appalachains and west saw lots of collaboration between indentured whites, natives, and runaway slaves. Not all whites were racist slave owners, but the slave owner power structure sure as hell was white.

On a side note, I stole a book from my high school history class which I still have, entitled "slavery defended," which was a collection of essays which would blow lots of people's minds to read. You don't strike me as a racist, RM, so i'd advise you to be careful in how you describe parts of that history. It may have been a different time as they say, but the enslavement of millions of africans for that massive cotton industry was horrible and inexcusible, regardless of lincoln and the north's stated motives.

"Roots" by alex haley offers another view of pre-war south, and is a brilliant book.
paul
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