Author Topic: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders  (Read 3102 times)

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Offline volz1fsu

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CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« on: January 06, 2006, 08:00:06 PM »
Does anybody have a CB650 or a CB750 cylinder assembly off the engine so they can take some measurements?  I am looking to findout how long or deep they are so I can see if they will work in my 550 without triming them.  I have already bored them out to 61mm (for 750 pistons) but I was wondering about building another engine that would take the 836cc pistons and I definetly need different sleeves for that.  Any help in that manner would be greatly appreciated.

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2006, 05:27:08 PM »
Can I assume that nobody has spare engine parts laying around to help me out?

Offline Clyde

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2006, 08:25:17 PM »
I have a 750 cylinder, which I can use to take some measurements.
What exactly do you need?
Regds Clyde
SOHC4 #1909
Honda CB750 K0(original and unrestored), K1(in pieces), K2(restored), F1(restored), 76 750a (awaiting restoration), 1966 Honda CB72
Suzuki GT750 1972 (restored), Kawasaki Z1 1973 (restored)

Offline cb650

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2006, 04:32:47 AM »
I have a 650 cyl. sittin loose.



            Terry
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2006, 05:34:22 PM »
What I need is the length of the sleeve from the top to the bottom, just a ruler measurement would be good enough.  I want to find out if the 650 or 750 sleeves could be used in my 550 with out shortening them down, therefore a measurement of one of each would be helpfull.  Thanks in advance, I figured someone out there would have the ability to help me out.

Offline cb650

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2006, 05:38:04 PM »
Overall the 650 is 4 1/4 inches.




               Terry
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2006, 09:19:27 AM »
Excellent!!!  ;D

upperlake04

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2006, 10:42:42 AM »
Overall the 1978 750SS  is 4 3/8 inches

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2006, 03:14:06 PM »
Great information, Thanks again!!! :D

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2006, 03:26:10 PM »
750 sleeve will take 836 pistons (just).
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Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2006, 03:39:44 PM »
I guess the 750 sleeves will be the ones I choose then. Maybe there are some pistons from another Honda that might work, smaller than the 836 and bigger than the stock 750 ones.  ??? I will have to do some research on that, I know that many have the exact same pin diameter, just getting the compression height right is the tricky part. 

I just was surprised to find out that stock CB500 pistons are a perfect 3mm big bore for a Honda rebel 250.  Bumps it up to a 261cc rather than the puny 234. Have yet to figure out the corrected compression ratio with the over bore.  Thought that was a pretty neat discovery.

Offline dusterdude

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #11 on: January 13, 2006, 04:15:16 PM »
my thoughts on changing pistons from engine to engine just based on bore size is what about rod length,do the sohc 4 engines at least use the same rod length or are they different
mark
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Offline dusterdude

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2006, 04:15:37 PM »
or stroke for that matter
mark
1972 k1 750
1949 fl panhead
1 1/2 gl1100 goldwings
1998 cbr600 f3

Offline cb650

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2006, 04:17:11 PM »
Crown hight also.





                            Terry
18 grand and 18 miles dont make you a biker

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2006, 04:18:37 PM »
Actually, rod length usually has very little to do with the equation (If you don't change it), only in a V-type engine configuration where internal balancing becomes more dificult and counter weight interferince is a problem at times.  On a four cylinder engine like the sohc4s, balancing is very simple because two pistons go up when two go down, canceling each other out.  The same is true with most of the honda twin cylinders, one up, one down. The rod length comes into effect when you take a crank and offset grind it to become a stroker crank.  A very expensive and timely thing to do.  In fact I have not even heard of this for motorcycle applications since there are many, many more problems with interference issues and machine work and even more time and money that the end performance gained do not justify the cost. The other option would be to buy a stroker crank.  I think it is safe to say that if you can buy a stroker crank, then you can get pistons and rods to match the application so the only problem would be to clearance for the extra stroke..............
Anyway, I could go on and on talking about those sort of things but I may bore you in the end.  I just love machining and building engines and I would also love to pass along my vast knowledge on the subject and many of the things I learned while getting my machining certificate.

Back to the Hondas:  Most of the piston designs are similar enough to mix and match to get a custom engine combination.  The piston skirt is designed to clear the counter weights in its original application and that is definitely something you have to look at when mixing parts.  Machining the pistons a little more to clear a certain crankshaft is not hard to do by a good machinist but it can be hard for certain person to look at a piston and see if it can be done.  With the CB500 pistons in a 250 Rebel, the piston requires no machining at all.  The distance between the piston pin and the skirt is just about the same on both pistons, enough that no machining is required.
The compression height, as it is called in the machining world, is what I believe cb650 is talking about with the "Crown Height".  That is the distance between the piston pin and the piston crown.  This is probably the most important part of custom building because it can not be fixed or changed as much as the skirt problem can be.  Several thousands can be removed but none can be added and if it is too low than massive head shaving must be done, or a very low compression ratio will be the result.  The only other way to fix this problem is to add a longer conecting rod to the mix.  The rod must be the precise length and piston pin diameter must be the same as well as the journal size.  It is very tricky to find a rod to work that came from another bike because these measurements and specifications are just not out there and are very hard to find if they are.  As you can see it is a very timely process to figure out a custom combination and many hours of research are required just to get started.  If any of you have maching questions, feel free to ask me.  I will always be happy to share some knowledge.

Offline n9viw

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2006, 12:11:24 PM »
volz1fsu,
   I, too, am planning a "Honda parts mix-n-match" for my CB550. One thing to bear in mind regarding adding 836cc sleeves to the 550 block is the proximity of the outer sleeves (and the bore required to fit them to the block) to the internal oil galleries that supply oil to the cam and rockers. I don't know if the block can be bored far enough to fit the 836 sleeves and leave these galleries intact; however, it may be possible instead to plug the internal oil ports in the case and head, drill and tap each of them at both sides, and fit external oil lines with restrictors to mimic the stock function.
   I have a set of 750 pistons thoughtfully provided by a friend, but I will need to source a set of stock rings, fit them to the 550 rods, and take the whole mess to a machine shop to have the cylinders bored and pistons cut for valve relief. Apart from these issues, are there any other considerations I need to make in this 593cc conversion? I'm roughly following Lloyd's 593 writeup, but even that is a little vague when it comes to the specifics of getting it all done. If I had a decent drill press, I might even attempt the bore and piston cut myself, but I'm not QUITE that daring. :D
Thanks for any helping tips you can provide!
Nick

'76 Honda CB550k
'73 Honda CB750k

Offline volz1fsu

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2006, 04:23:12 PM »
n9viw,
     Since I haven't been able to get a set of 750 sleeves, I don't know if the oil galleys would get in the way.  I have to get out in the garage again and do some more measuring on the case to see what the maximum boring would be.  It wouldn't be hard to fit external lines from the head to the block and just plug off the internal ones.  Probably a good idea even since those galleys tend to leak overtime with the type of o-rings sealing them.  Also a custom head gasket needs to be made for the conversion, I haven't looked into that yet but I will probably want to go with a copper one if I can.
     I wish I had the equipment to machine my pistons but I would rather leave that to someone who has quite a lot of experience with that.  I got some '78 F-model pistons with the increased dome height so I will also have to have them machined for the right compression ratio, I am going to go with a 10.5:1 compression.  That is about as "hot" as I would want for a street engine.  Other than that I think it should be a very simple conversion (to some extent).  I will keep everyone posted on my progress as I go through the build.

Offline bryanj

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Re: CB650 or CB750 Cylinders
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2006, 05:15:33 AM »
Ted Hayes out in Oz races a 500 fitted with 650 crank,  rods and block, obviously with the 650 cam wheel and cam chain as its a hy-vo chain. this seems a far easier way to go about it unless you really want to use the shorter stroke crank and rods from the 500/550
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