Topic: 76 550four idling problems

[JAG]

So Should I replace the caps/boots?? Or is there another reason the spark may not be getting to the plug?

[JAG]

Okay How about this..

After messing with the spark plug wires, tappets, and fuel levels, which I am still getting a little bit to drop out of the #2 bowl, I got it to run..

It ran off of three and four cylinders.. I adjusted the one and two spark plug wires, fired it back up then it only ran on TWO and FOUR.

Trying changing around the spark plugs themselves, and got it to run off of 1,2, and 4 cylinders. I put a new spark plug in 3 and let it run for awhile.. After about 3 minutes it finally started hitting on all 4 cylinders.. Woo Hoo, Yahoos, and all that..

After about a minute after running off all 4 cylinders, it start bogging back down retreating to maybe running off of 2 cylinders then died.

After it died white smoke came out of the #1 carb. What caused that..

Also it has always seemed to have white smoke  has always came out of the #1 and #3 exhausts. As the cylinder would fire so would a plume of smoke, So its hasn't ran smoothly until it hit off of all 4 cylinders. It usually just makes the pop pop pop noise like an ugly harley.

Any suggestions are kindly welcome!!! Please.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

White smoke suggests water somewhere.  Is your tank maybe the source?  If so, then your bowls will now contain water too. 

[JAG]

White smoke suggests water somewhere.  Is your tank maybe the source?  If so, then your bowls will now contain water too. 

If thats the case, while I have the tank off and while checking the petcock screen for debris, I'll mix in like a cup of rubbing alcohol with the gas and let it get the water out..

[JAG]

Also I am getting it to run off of 3 cylinders. However the #1 cylinder will come in every once and awhile but it never stays continually hitting the whole time..

Also must note that the white plumes of smoke only occur when a cylinder is not firing. When they are firing its mostly a soot like debris coming out.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Soot would be a rich mix.  An overflowing carb is likely to be rich.  As I recall, you set your float height but did you check to see if your floats float?  A saturated float (if plastic) or a brass float with a hole in it is no good.  What book did you get the float height measurement and procedure from?  Different carbs have different heights and the 550 changed carbs between 76 and 77.  The carbs will have a model number stamped into the body.

As for the intermittent drop out of cyl #1, run the bike with the lights off.  Look for arcing between the plug wires and the engine block.  If it's arcing off the wire, it won't be arcing at the plug.

[JAG]

Okay sorry for the late response, It's been way to cold to do anything.

I went out and started it up, it only ran on 2 cylinders again. But fun thing was I would actually shake the hole bike via the handlebars and it would start to hit on all cylinders.. Gas issue??

So I went further, finally taking off the petcock. And inside the take was like a sleeve that looked like a condom. Kind of weird. Anyways, other than having a little bit of residue on the Lower portion of said condom it was clean, and almost see through.

I took off all pieces in regard to the petcock, and found nothing to show as signs of blockage. Put everything back together, made sure gas was flowing through the petcock, hooked the lines back up, waited til the blows were full. Turned engine over, and it never hit a freaking lick.. I drained the fuel out of the bowls and measured it the best I could. There are two lines, one for each set of carbs. the first bowl let out 1/4 of a cup of fuel. the second I received 1/8 of a cup. The 3rd I again received 1/4 of a cup and 1/8 for the 4th bowl. So it drained out the extra fuel from the lines, and it was all the Exact same.. So I know it is getting proper amount of fuel. I know it is reaching the carbs. Why did it not turn over?? The only thing I can come up with is it keeps fouling out the plugs. If it is doing that, then does it mean that its running to rich, and I need to back off the amount of fuel in the carbs? The number stamped into the side of the carbs themselves is "087A". I know for a fact the jets are clean, you can see day light for days.. Is there anything else that would cause blockages? The next thing I'll check is to mkae surfe the floats indeed "float". And come back and report my findings.

[JAG]

I also want to reiterate that I have in fact adjust all valve tappets, made sure points and timing was dead on. I've done everything aside from syncing the carbs, which I still dont have any idead how that is possible. But I'll address that later.

I have found that oil is seeping out of some gasket that lies in behind the points plate and is collecting in the bottom and dripping out when the plate is off..

Gasoline comes out in drops, out of the exhaust when that particular cylinder isn't firing.

Thats all I can think of at this moment.

[JAG]

I also want to add that It keeps blowing the fuse that controls the headlight and starter.. Have no idea why either Ive checked all loose ends to come up with nothing.

[TwoTired]

Shaking the bike and having issues come and go make it sound electrical in nature.  Have you checked the power circuit lead to the coils?  When it doesn't run, is there full power on the black/wht wires on the coils?
What is the condition of the run/stop switch on the bars?  Are connections to it solid ? (Check headlight bucket first, unless it's an F model, then all the bar control wire join under tank on left side.)

Have your new spark plugs collected black deposits on the center electrode insulator?

Gasoline comes out in drops, out of the exhaust when that particular cylinder isn't firing.

Unlikely.  Probably water tainted with unburned hydrocarbons.  Raw gas in that quantity would probably hydro-lock the engine on the compression stroke.

[JAG]

Shaking the bike and having issues come and go make it sound electrical in nature.  Have you checked the power circuit lead to the coils?  When it doesn't run, is there full power on the black/wht wires on the coils?
What is the condition of the run/stop switch on the bars?  Are connections to it solid ? (Check headlight bucket first, unless it's an F model, then all the bar control wire join under tank on left side.)

Have your new spark plugs collected black deposits on the center electrode insulator?

Gasoline comes out in drops, out of the exhaust when that particular cylinder isn't firing.

Unlikely.  Probably water tainted with unburned hydrocarbons.  Raw gas in that quantity would probably hydro-lock the engine on the compression stroke.

Hmm. Well. The start switch is brand new Honda part. I assumed all connection are there, since using the start button makes the engine turn over.

The coils are an extra set I had lying around, however they are for the 750. I didnt think there would be a huge differece in the two. And all ohms readings showed well within the respectable range.

The spark plugs always look bad, when they arent firing they are wet. When they are firing they have a lot of dry black soot on them. I have yet to get one to look normal yet.

Per your thoughts, I'll run back out there and re connect every wire to their place, and see if it helps..

Everything else is pretty much beyond me and I'm about to throw up the white flag. My knowledge on electronics is childish at best.

As far as the water tainted gas,Do you believe adding some rubbing alcohol may help in the mattter?

Thanks

[TwoTired]

Hmm. Well. The start switch is brand new Honda part. I assumed all connection are there, since using the start button makes the engine turn over.

The Start button does not power the coils, the Stop-Run-Stop switch does that.

New control module??  Were the wire run inside or outside the bars?  If inside, pulling on wires can damage a connection.
Check for reliable power on the black//wht wires (Like when you shake the bars).

Everything else is pretty much beyond me and I'm about to throw up the white flag. My knowledge on electronics is childish at best.

ok... Does this mean you have no multimeter, or skills to use it?

As far as the water tainted gas,Do you believe adding some rubbing alcohol may help in the mattter?

If you suspect tainted gas in the tank, replace the gas rather than trying to fix it.

If you are referring to your "gas" out the exhaust.  Ignore it until you fix the engine run problems (even if it IS shiny).  Water in the exhaust is a byproduct of combustion, or condensation collected from the humidity in the air, or an overzealous water washing hose.  (Check those low point exhaust drains are clear.)

[JAG]

When the bike was purchased the wires ran on the outside of the bars. With the new switch I funneled the wires to the inside of the bars.

I re checked all the wires in the head light bucket and it all seemed to be okay aside from pulling every wire all apart and re connecting every single one. I can check the black/white wire for power to make sure juice is getting to it.

I do have a multimeter and my skills are limited. When I checked the ohms on the coils before putting them on there they read around 6 ohms (yellow wire with black, blue wire with black). Now I know there is a way to check it while they are connected to the bike and its supposed to get around 15 ohms but I'm not sure how.

[TwoTired]

Running wires inside the bar takes some care not to skin the wires or pull them out of the control housing.

But, the real test is to measure the BLK/WHT wires at the coil connection to see if there is proper voltage getting there using a voltmeter.  (This is not a new concept in this thread.)

The stock coils, measuring ohms, should be about 5 ohms.  measure from the the disconnected yellow (or Blue) to the disconnected blk/wht.  You must subtract any test lead resistance from this measurement (whatever the meter reads with the probe tips touching each other directly).

Revisit the Blk/WHT connector at the coils.  Make sure the socket firmly grips the male terminals.  Then make sure the yellow connection is good all the way to the points, then do the dame with the blue wire connection between coil and points.

As a final check, insulate both point contacts with something like a matchbook card board which holds them open.  Turn on the switches like you are going to run it. and measure the voltage across each set of points.  Report findings.
You can also shake the bars while doing these last measurements to verify solid, unwavering readings.

Also:
When you drained the gas from the carbs, did you observe if the gas came out clean?  Or, was there bits of debris in the drainage?

[JAG]

OKay. Measuring blue-black/white and yellow- black/white, I got 6. So minus 1 and that is 5.

With using matchbook cardboard placed between the points, I measured either side of the points and got 10.83 on both sides.

As for the gasoline goes, there is no trash at all coming out each time I drained via the plug. And I've done them all about 10 times and achieved the same results- No specs of trash.

[TwoTired]

With using matchbook cardboard placed between the points, I measured either side of the points and got 10.83 on both sides.

What is your battery voltage under the same conditions that you measured 10.83v at the points?

[JAG]

With using matchbook cardboard placed between the points, I measured either side of the points and got 10.83 on both sides.

What is your battery voltage under the same conditions that you measured 10.83v at the points?

Across the battery I get 12.28

[TwoTired]

Well, that's dismal.
Not only is your battery undercharged.  But, you are losing 1.45V between battery and coils.  Did you have the headlight on during this test?  It would seem the switches, fuse clips, and connectors need attention on this bike.

You did have both points insulated at the same time, right?

Still, it is not bad enough to stop the engine from running, unless those readings at the points are intermittent, or the points have a film over them, preventing electrical contact when closed.

Tell me about your air filter.  Any chance your pilot jets or main jets have been drilled?

Still need a report about the spark plug center electrode insulator deposits.

[JAG]

I just tested the battery when I received 12.28V. With the key switched to the ON position the battery is at 11.67V.

The headlight is always on. I could disconnect it and retest the levels again.

Both points were insulated at the same time. On each point, I place one lead on one side of the isulation and the other on the other side of the insulation, and received the same reading.

There is no air filter at the moment. The carbs are wide open. I'm not sure what you mean by drilled main and pilot jets, but they seem factory, or normal. I can post pics of any of this if need be. As far as the spark plugs I posted earlier and stated "The spark plugs always look bad, when they arent firing they are wet. When they are firing they have a lot of dry black soot on them. I have yet to get one to look normal yet." So as far as a deposit goes, on  brand new spark plugs they are always black.

When the bike was purchased the PO had a damn bolt  stuck in where the fuse should have went. IE the one that has continously blown on me. (I dont know if that helps or worsens as far as input goes) But we all assumed it was due to the wiring from the switch. You could see spare wires running all around the control switch, and upon closer inspection there was some soldering around the connections on the inside around the white plastic piece housing the starter button was. I assumed buying a brand new switch would change things however it hasn't as of yet. Those three things, The fuse, coils, and control switch is the only electrical things I have messed with. (Again, I don't know if it helps any. Just trying to tell you everything I know)

[TwoTired]

I just tested the battery when I received 12.28V. With the key switched to the ON position the battery is at 11.67V.

You are going to have to pay better attention with the electrical tests.  Relevant readings/measurements are essential for analysis.

I asked "What is your battery voltage under the same conditions that you measured 10.83v at the points?"
These details are important and essential if I am going to remote troubleshoot your bike.
If I get unrelated measurements, you will get nonsense for analytical diagnosis, that will be of little help.

Anyway, your battery is certainly depleted and needs charging.  Do you have a charger to do that?  I'm, starting to think your battery is losing too much voltage to fire the coils. (particularly if the mixtures are off as far as you suspect.)

Are you using full choke all the time? Describe your start procedure.
Electric start?  Kick Start?

The headlight is always on. I could disconnect it and retest the levels again.

You should have three fuses. 1 main 15A, 1 Headlight 7 amp , and 1 tail either 5 or 7 amp. Both the headlight and the electric starter are big drains on the battery.  Until you are ready to ride the bike around, take out the headlight fuse.

Both points were insulated at the same time. On each point, I place one lead on one side of the insulation and the other on the other side of the insulation, and received the same reading.

That's good. 
New Conditions: key switch and run switch both on and the points closed:  Is there a voltage reading from wire post on points to points plate?

I'm not sure what you mean by drilled main and pilot jets, but they seem factory, or normal.

Both the jets in each carb have an internal metering orifice.  It is not uncommon for people to drill the internal metering orifice to a larger dimension either for cleaning or to make the engine run without air filter, pod filters, or open exhaust.  I've never heard of any of these modifiers making any marking change on the outside indicating the part has been modified.  The casual observer is then mystified when the bike is difficult to tune, or runs too rich.

I can post pics of any of this if need be. As far as the spark plugs I posted earlier and stated "The spark plugs always look bad, when they arent firing they are wet. When they are firing they have a lot of dry black soot on them. I have yet to get one to look normal yet." So as far as a deposit goes, on  brand new spark plugs they are always black.

The black soot on the plugs is conductive.  It seems that when the black dry soot becomes wet, it forms a conductive glaze on the center electrode insulator, and thus defeats the purpose of the insulator.  Electrical energy then flows through the conductive path formed by the glaze, instead of jumping the gap to the spark plug grounding strap.  No spark, no fire, no run.

When the bike was purchased the PO had a damn bolt  stuck in where the fuse should have went. IE the one that has continously blown on me. (I dont know if that helps or worsens as far as input goes) But we all assumed it was due to the wiring from the switch.

A common problem with the old fuse holders is that the fuse clips become tarnished and form a resistive coating between fuse and clip.  When you pass a current through the resistive coating it generates heat.  The main 15 amp fuse blows if current flowing through it exceeds 15 amp. While passing currents smaller than rating it still partially heats the fuse element.  IE, if you are passing ten amps through the 15 amp fuse it will be warm but not hot enough to melt the fuse link.  If fuse clip corrosion is adding it's heat to the normal run temp, the fuse link melts, usually at or under the end of the fuse metal cap.

Hot fuse clips can lose their spring and then not grab the fuse tightly, this increases the contact resistance further adding to heat generation.
For proper maintenance, the fuse clips need to be bright and shiny and grab the fuse with sufficient force that you would need a tool to separate the components.  If you can take out the fuse with bare fingers, your fuse clips have a problem.  Sometimes, you can bend the clip inward to restore firm contact with the fuse.  Sometime the clips just break off.
If the problem has existed for a while, and especially if someone is dumb enough to use a bolt. the heating still continues, which can damage/melt the plastic, and melt solder for the attaching wires on the back of the fuse block, leaving only a few strands left to pass current.  Fewer strands and high current ALSO lead to heating and that heat can be conducted to you poor abused fuse element.

Again this is a common problem that I'm sure you will have to address with the bike you are working on.  But, as long as power is getting to the coils, the points are making good contact, and the spark plugs aren't shorted out at the tips, the bike should have spark and be able to run.
If you are dead certain the above is in working order, you can check off those variables and move on to fuel/carb issues.
(I make the assumption that the cylinders all have adequate compression.)

You are still going to have to focus on the fuse block at some point, though.

[JAG]

Those are ALL great things to considered.. Thanks TT..

W/O proper insulation in my garage, and snow on the ground, I'm pretty much forced to stay indoor.. When I brought my new/old 500 home the battery was dead. I took the battery off my buddy's 550 and found that the screws that hold the +,- wires just fell right off... The posts on the battery were brittle and practically fell right off. So this could be a reason the voltage isn't all getting through the system..

When the weather clears, it's off to buy a new battery, and address some of these issues, esp. the fuse. When the key is turned to the ON position you can visually see the filament in the fuse bend, so something is definitely a miss..

Thank you for the suggestions and help.

[JAG]

Well I layered up and turned up the kerosene space heater and went at it.

Sure enough after messing with my 72 500 I just purchased it got the wheels turning a little bit for me.. I address all connections concerning the coils and points and I got a new battery. Tightened up the arms around that one fuse. Bought 4 brand new spark plugs, and boom it turned right over. And it is finally hitting on all four cylinders. Its definitely a cold nature beast.

Now that it is running, its doing that crazy idling again. I know as these bikes warm up the rpms increase, but as this one starts to warm up the rpms shoot way up and come back down intermittedly. Sometimes it'll stay running sometimes it'll just die. It'll be hard to sync the carbs if I can't get it stable.

So is this an air leak? I tightened up the boots as best I could. It doesnt have the air box back on it yet (No rubber boots for it) and I believe the jets are factory. I'm not sure what else it could be.

Any suggestions?

Thanks guys.

[OldSchool_IsCool]

Test for leaks at the rubbers between the carbs and head.  Spray a little carb cleaner or WD-40.  If the speed picks up when sprayed, you have a leak.

If that doesn't solve it, then it prolly carb imbalance.  I don't recall if you mentioned bench syncing these carbs yet or not.  It may be worth your time to pull the carbs, clean 'em again (the hard part is the removal/reinstall, so you may as well).  Bench sync them just before you put them back on.  Search this site for "flashlight method" as , IMHO, that's the best way to sync 'em.

[JAG]

Test for leaks at the rubbers between the carbs and head.  Spray a little carb cleaner or WD-40.  If the speed picks up when sprayed, you have a leak.

If that doesn't solve it, then it prolly carb imbalance.  I don't recall if you mentioned bench syncing these carbs yet or not.  It may be worth your time to pull the carbs, clean 'em again (the hard part is the removal/reinstall, so you may as well).  Bench sync them just before you put them back on.  Search this site for "flashlight method" as , IMHO, that's the best way to sync 'em.

I bench sync them and cleaned them out three times now. Flashlight method done. I'm going to go pick up some new clamps for the boots today and see if I can get them any tighter.. The idle has to be consistent for me. If not I dont think I will properly be able to sync them with the gauges.

Is there any other idea why this could be going on besides, carb imbalance or air leak? I don't think it has beem mentioned here but I have also heard about the advance timing could be getting stuck?? Is that indicative of this problem?

[OldSchool_IsCool]

The advancer is worth checking.  You can check it with a timing light (the light will flash at the "advance mark" when the RPMs are at 3500 or above) then will fall back to the "F" mark when the RPMs are backed off.

To check it without the engine running, try to rotate the entire points plate by hand.  Does it snap back when released? 

To lube the advancer requires that the points plate be taken off.