Author Topic: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT  (Read 4431 times)

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Offline JZEROE

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SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« on: February 28, 2010, 08:07:13 AM »
Hello.

If you're like me, and you have a 400f, you have likely experienced the massive engineering fail that is the start button. Sure, the headlight disco wire is a great power-saving idea (almost as good as, you know, a switch that turns your headlight off whenever you want to...), but I wish Honda hadn't decided to make the switch housing out of dried corn and pre-rusted pot-metal. What I'm trying to say is, mine is broken. Beyond repair. When I pulled the right-hand controls off to "unstick the spring," or whatever easy fix I was fantasizing about, I could've sworn I was staring at Barbie's taco salad.

So, I don't want to buy a whole hand control. And, while my electrical knowledge is pretty limited, I do know that that sexy little Moroso pushbutton number (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-74120) will not work for me. It is "SPST," which, far as I can tell, is just an abbreviation for "supposed to," spoken in a dismissive tone.

I'm just kidding a bit. I have the Internet. I know what it stands for, and I know why it doesn't work. But, like I said, I'm an idiot, so I don't know which acronym is right for me. DPDT? DPST? FDNY? Can somebody who knows about this just tell me what to tell the mutant at my local Radio Hut?

Thank you.

J
'75 CB400F
'76 CB750K - Project Freebike

Quartza

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2010, 09:46:35 AM »
I believe you need a DPST, double pole single throw.

Offline JZEROE

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2010, 10:08:52 AM »
OK, now that I've spent the morning reading up on switch types, I am the most dangerous kind of idiot: the kind of idiot who thinks he knows something.

So there are three wires going to the start switch: the ground, the positive lead to the starter solenoid, and the positive lead to the headlight. Doesn't that mean I should get a SPCO switch, so that I could have the ground switching between the grounds?

And, a philosophical question: Isn't it really bad to have both the headlight and the starter wired through one dinky little switch? Am I losing a ton of voltage there, and wouldn't it be better to wire in a SPST switch (like that super-cool Moroso) controlling the starter, and then get another burly SPST to control the lights? Or am I falling victim to "I'm a better engineer than the guys at Honda" syndrome?
'75 CB400F
'76 CB750K - Project Freebike

Offline kslrr

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2010, 10:24:10 AM »
What Honda is doing with the headlight, I think, is that the starter switch cuts out the light during starting so that there is less of a load on the battery.  If this is the case, you could reroute the headlight circuit to it's own on/off switch and then use a SPST for your starter.  Do you have an electrical schematic for your 400?
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
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Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
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Offline JZEROE

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2010, 10:36:47 AM »
You could reroute the headlight circuit to it's own on/off switch and then use a SPST for your starter.

That's what I was wondering. Is there any reason that would be a bad idea? And also, couldn't I just get a set of controls for a 750 and use those instead?
'75 CB400F
'76 CB750K - Project Freebike

Offline kslrr

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2010, 10:43:02 AM »
I am looking at the circuit diagram right now and it confirms what I was thinking: you could seperate the starter/headlight circuits.  Trying to make controls from a CB750 work would be more involved.  The wire colors and connectors most likely would be different.

Here's what you would do: the Bk/R and Bk wires are for the headlight; Y/R for the starter (I think you already figured that part out). Connecting the Bk/R with the Bk would keep the headlight on, except when the Main is off, or you could use 2 Moroso switches. One for Headlight, one for starter.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
        2004 HD XL883C Custom
        1977 Yamaha XS750D (in progress)
Then 1972 CL175
        1964 Yamaha YGS-1T
No ride is a Bad ride

Offline Bodi

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2010, 11:43:53 AM »
You would need a SPDT momentary pushbutton switch to replace it. The power wire goes to the centre terminal and the headlight goes to whichever other terminal is powered. The solenoid wire goes to the last terminal.
The bike will work OK if you just connect the headlight to be on all the time, or add an off switch if you want one. The starter still starts the bike even with the headlight on.
If you do that you only need a SPST-NO switch for the starter - there are pushbutton switches that will fit into the grip housing, I haven't seen a SPDT one that would go in there.

Offline number13

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 11:48:32 AM »
Quote
And also, couldn't I just get a set of controls for a 750 and use those instead?
When I was redoing my 400 I found the early Goldwing right side controls
to be identical to the 400, and much cheaper than looking for 400 parts.
Bikes parked out front mean good chicken-fried steak inside.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2010, 12:01:07 PM »
The starter switch in the Honda for this model is SPDT. (Single Pole/Double Throw)
It takes a single electrical voltage and routes it to one of two contacts depending on position (or throw).
In this case, it takes a black wire (switched 12v from the key switch) and routes it to either the headlight circuit or the starter solenoid circuit.  The spring biases the switch position to normally have the contact for the headlight "made".

It's a small battery.  And, electrical loads lower the voltage output.  Prior models had a separate headlight switch, so the drain on the battery could be removed during electric start high current draw from the battery, and this helps the coils make better spark arcs at start up.

Along came the government and mandated that all motorcycles had to have the headlight on while driving about and abolished the separate headlight switch.  So, Honda had a special switch made to remove headlight power during electric start up. (A tiny, high current handling one, that would still fit inside the control housing.)
The plastic that the switch housing was made from is NOT resistant to brake fluid.  But, who would be concerned about that, since ALL Honda owners would notice if the brake master cylinder was leaking and have that immediately fixed, well before the fluid could reach the switch plastic, right?  ::)

In my opinion, they gave Honda owners too much credit at adhering to proper maintenance schedules and attention.  It really should be able to withstand owner abuse and neglect far better than it does, and also withstand shotgun blasts from close range without showing any damage or deterioration.
But, those bastard engineers at Honda overlooked that eventuality.  Honda should have extended the full maintenance warranty to 50 years 500,000 miles.

Probably the biggest fault in Honda engineering is in not creating a product where ham-handed mechanic/engineer wannabes are prevented from attacking with malice.

But, your switch, for whatever reason, is now broken.  Your choices are:
-Replace it with a new one from Honda that demonstrated it's ability to last "only" 30 years.
-Ignore the current loads and hard wire the headlight to always on.  Then use a simple SPST switch in the starter solenoid circuit.
-Use a SPST switch in the starter solenoid circuit, and add another neato switch "with lighted bat handles" in another position on the bike.
(Be sure to make a one-off wire diagram for your bike to make troubleshooting possible 30 years after the mod was made.  Don't want to be cursed by future owners, for poor engineering decisions, right?)

BTW, switch contacts are rated for power handling.  The headlight circuit must make and break 10 amps without meltdown (safe engineering practice).  The starter solenoid circuit probably needs only 3-5 amp (maybe less) make/break contact capability.

You could eliminate pesky switches entirely, and just touch and/or twist open end wires together whenever needed.  But, I'm not sure how to make that sort of schematic representation, on the amended wire diagram.
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...Where IS that tongue in cheek emoticon?  ???
  ;D



« Last Edit: February 28, 2010, 03:57:04 PM by TwoTired »
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline sbparks

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2010, 12:24:47 PM »
This is certainly a fun read... Love it!

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2010, 12:59:15 PM »
Have to hand it to TT; that first paragraph of his above is a masterpiece of description of how the dang starter ' button ' works..kudos.........
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline JZEROE

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 01:02:26 PM »
Twisting wires together... finally, a fix that uses parts I have on hand!
'75 CB400F
'76 CB750K - Project Freebike

Offline Honda?

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2010, 02:35:03 PM »
Kickstart. It's the cool thing to do. :)
I have a 1970 CB350 SS, 1988 NT650(Hawk GT), 2004 BMW R1100S

Offline cookindaddy

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2010, 02:53:02 PM »
Love it TT! Very funny description  :D
George with a black 78 CB750K (in Lion's Head, Ontario, Canada)

Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: SPST... double pole dance, single WTF I AM AN IDIOT
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2010, 03:01:49 PM »
Look for Aussie controls,we didn't get the hardwired headlight law until well into the 80's..

Mick
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If You can't fix it with a hammer, You've got an electrical problem.