Author Topic: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild  (Read 46562 times)

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Offline kghost

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #125 on: February 09, 2015, 02:45:45 AM »
Sounds like a pissed off hand Grenade lol


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Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #126 on: August 19, 2021, 02:18:55 PM »
Hi,

In February 2010 I started this thread, and in 2011 I wrote this:

Quote
It still is a tough decision whether or not to repaint the crankcase, it is in a nice shape, except the front side, but it is original.  btw, at the rear of the crankcase there are numbers and letter written at the production process, it's amazing that these are still there. On the front side there is a lot of oxidation, small stones crashed into it, and I cannot remove the dirt without removing the paint. I tried with all kinds of cleaners, but this is the result. If I'm gonna let it paint I want only the front of the crankcase to be painted. I found a guy who says he can do it, and I think he can. Here is his link ( http://www.glpaints.nl/nieuw/nl/gl_start_nl.htm). He is highly recommended by people who are in the business.

After 11 years I finally have the time to not only start up the rebuild, but also the time and energy to finish it. In the past 11 years I changed jobs (twice), went from senior machine vision engineer to R&D engineer at a large machine builder, travelled the world for many projects, raised our two children and rode my mainly classic bikes (CB450 K0, CB77 and my KR1-s).

4 months ago I made the decision, and brought the engine parts to the painter. The top engine case is painted, just like the side covers. The cylinder is a NOS part, bottom engine case and cylinder head are wet-blasted.




« Last Edit: August 19, 2021, 02:35:34 PM by supersports400 »

Offline Stev-o

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2021, 02:26:31 PM »
Welcome back!  Takes dedication to hold on to a project for 11 years, I'm confident that you will get it done soon!

Do you still have the CB450?  I bought one last year...



It is the most impressive bike, ya know?!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2021, 02:38:00 PM »
Yes, actually 2 now, or maybe 3. And a few K1's and a K2. Nice bomber you have there, all original ? You gonna restore it ? or ride it like it is ?
If you need any advice or help with the 450, just ask...

I acquired a few NOS of parts for the CB400F.  Now it's time to rebuild the engine, I started with building the tranny, out of three tranny's, just picking the best parts, and add a few new parts to it.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 02:42:24 PM by supersports400 »

Offline Stev-o

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #129 on: August 20, 2021, 02:40:29 PM »
Nice bomber you have there, all original ?

Thanks.  Yes, all original except the handlebars. It came with some higher ones and I couldnt find originals.

Bought it from a friend, said he never cleaned it, said he liked the way it looked! So do I...
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #130 on: August 20, 2021, 02:44:19 PM »
The handlebars look like the European version, could also be from a CB400f. My US bike has indeed a higher handlebar. My Dutch CB450 K0 has the low bars.

The picture below is a Dutch version, and has the low bars including winkers mounted on the brackets. The bottom picture is from a Norwegian guy, this is a very good example of how the bike should look like. Also has the low bars. Most people in the Netherlands replaced the bars for an even lower one, a stick or straight bar and ditched the winkers.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 02:49:11 PM by supersports400 »

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #131 on: December 04, 2021, 08:57:02 AM »
Today, I ordered all O-rings and oil seals. It took some time to dive into the world of rubber and making the right decisions. All critical O-rings that contact oil and should withstand temperatures above 120 degrees Celsius are Viton rings, the rest are made of NBR. Some O-rings are not made in Viton, so unfortunately, not all critical O-rings are Viton. The same for the oil-seals. Sometimes I changed the type of oil seal and added a dust seal where Honda did not.


All Honda NOS O-rings are made of NBR, even the newly made O-rings for this bike. Since it's an air-cooled bike, I always look for better materials with a higher temperature resistance and chemical resistance. Since Viton and petrol are not compatible, all O-rings for the carburettors are NBR-type O-rings.

For the Honda CB450's and the CB72's I use the same strategy, and I have complete lists and vendors who supply them. But doing it for just one bike (CB400F) was a lot of work.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2021, 09:01:56 AM by supersports400 »

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #132 on: December 05, 2021, 07:50:22 AM »
When doing an engine restoration you will come across buying O-rings and Oil seals. Most people just buy them at Honda suppliers, which is good, but sub-optimal. When understanding a little more of the choices to make and why, maybe a local supplier can supply the right O-rings and oil seals at a lower cost of the Honda parts, and when you know what you are doing, maybe even better resistant to high temperatures that comes with our air-cooled engines.

There are a few characteristics to keep in mind, most important are temperature and chemical resistance. Since temperatures can get very high in our engines (air cooled) and these materials have to function in a very aggressive chemical environment a few guide lines are important to consider. Looking at the properties of the most common materials used for O-rings and oil seals a simple distinction can be made.

All critical O-rings that contact oil and should withstand temperatures above 120 degrees Celsius are Viton rings, the rest are made of NBR. Some O-rings are not made in Viton, so unfortunately, not all critical O-rings are Viton. The same for the oil-seals. Sometimes I changed the type of oil seal and added a dust seal where Honda did not.

All Honda NOS O-rings are made of NBR or even older materials, even the newly made O-rings for this bike. Since our bikes are air-cooled, I always look for better materials with a higher temperature resistance and chemical resistance. Since Viton and petrol are less compatible, all O-rings for the carburettors are NBR-type O-rings. I always try to buy Viton rings and seals for the cylinder head and cylinder, these part are getting really hot.

Viton rings are mostly 80 shore A (a little harder then NBR 70 shore A). This article gives an explanation of how to interpret shore A scale.

Differences between NBR (Nitril) and Viton:

Nitrile Rubber

Temperature: Nitrile is effective within a temperature range of -30°C to 100°C.
General Suitability: Used for general purpose applications requiring resistance to aliphatic hydrocarbons, petroleum oils, water and hydraulic fluids.
Environmental Properties: Nitrile vs Viton® is not resistant to degradation from weather and ozone exposure. Designed to resist most oils and lubricants, more importantly petroleum based lubricants, these seals have other benefits, such as superior abrasion and tear resistance, making them suitable for heavy duty industrial applications.
Applications: A cost effective product, that works well with constrained temperatures and chemical resistance.



Viton® Rubber

Temperature: Viton® seals can withstand temperatures up between -20°C to 210°C. Viton® seals are prone to failure below -15°C in dynamic applications, as they become inflexible and hard.
General Suitability: Viton® is best suited for diverse sealing jobs that require high temperature and chemical resistance. Applications involving contact with petroleum oils, acids, silicone fluids and gases, halogenated hydrocarbons (trichloroethylene and carbon tetrachloride), aromatic hydrocarbons usually have seals and o rings made of Viton®.
Environmental Properties: Viton® O-rings and seals have a wide range of chemical resistance (involving mineral acids, fuels, and oils) and this material is also highly resistant to oxidation, UV exposure, fungus, weather, ozone, and mould. This makes Viton® far superior to Nitrile in these regards. They are also designed to resist most oils and lubricants, more importantly petroleum-based lubricants.
Applications: Viton® functions well in different automotive, chemical and appliance-processing industries.
Cost: As an approximate guide, Viton® compound is ten to fifteen times more expensive than NBR.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2021, 07:52:33 AM by supersports400 »

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #133 on: December 11, 2021, 02:57:05 AM »
Not much going on here ? everyone on FB ?

Offline Kevin

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #134 on: December 11, 2021, 07:57:37 AM »
Since Viton and petrol are not compatible, all O-rings for the carburettors are NBR-type O-rings.

Hi Jensen!!!
Welcome back!
I am getting older all the time and my memory s not all that great...but I thought I was rebuilding all my CB400F carbs with Viton O rings because it stood up to the modern fuel with grain added (ethanol), which is about all you can find in the USA.

I'd be interested in a copy of your xls spreadsheet for oil seals and O rings.

Kevin

A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Online seanbarney41

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #135 on: December 11, 2021, 08:17:37 AM »
following...I bet lots of others are too.  Some folks don't say too much.  Others not enough.

And yeah, I know this site has lost a lot to Facebook.
If it works good, it looks good...

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #136 on: December 11, 2021, 08:19:44 AM »
I was a getting a little worried, 4 on a row from myself is not what i'm used to...

Offline Kevin

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #137 on: December 11, 2021, 08:48:38 AM »
 I am on some of the CB400F facebook groups but this really is the best place for trust worthy information. Plus, the Facebook groups are mostly UK and Aussies ;-)

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'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #138 on: January 08, 2022, 03:00:16 AM »
Wintertime !, The Kawasaki is stored and ready for the summer after a good cleaning and maintance, so room for the CB400F build again (at last, after 12 years !).

The secondary as well as the primary shaft are NOS, just as all the small parts and bearings. After building up both shafts and gear selector drum, I placed both assembled shafts in the upper crankcase. I found that the first gear on the secondary shaft had much play, so I shimmed with 0,5 mm shims both sides. I also shimmed the primary shaft, with 0,5 mm shim. The total end play of both shafts is now within 0.25 mm. More important is that the first gear on the secondary shaft is not able to "touch" the opposite gear at the right (in the last picture). I also replaced the badly worn gears by other, better gears. The dogs are still having enough meat to catch after shimming.

btw, how do you insert images in the text itself ?
« Last Edit: January 08, 2022, 03:18:01 AM by supersports400 »

Offline Kevin

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #139 on: January 09, 2022, 03:06:38 AM »
The gears look like new .
Interesting modification with the shims. I will be double checking the side to side play on the next engine I rebuild.

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'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #140 on: January 09, 2022, 04:51:52 AM »
Only one is new, the rest of the gears are acquired from 2 complete transmissions I bought over the years, one of these transmissions was very dirty, but after a good cleaning (Ultrasonic) it seemed that it came from a (very) low miles bike.

I always shim gears, and if you look at the last picture, you'll see that all gears are exactly aligned as a pair. Normally I work on older Honda's (dreams, CB72/77 and CB450's), and in most cases shimming is required to align gear pairs. The CB400F is clearly a more modern bike (at least 10 years difference) compared with these bikes, and Honda learned a lot during those years.

Last week I picked-up my freshly plated parts to collect the bolts I need for putting the engine halves together, they were in a batch of unsorted parts of the mentioned bikes. I added some pictures of stuff I brought to the zinc plater. Every once in a while after accumulate parts to plate (approximately 25 Kg / per batch) it's time to sort the stuff that's coming back. Since I throw in fasteners, springs, sprockets and even larger parts, of the bikes I'm busy with, this sorting takes a while. Pictures of before help me to identify the parts after plating. Before plating I take the time to get the parts as smooth as possible, the result after plating is much better then just throw the parts in.

The price I pay for plating depends on what I want. For example the bolts in the last picture are plated piece by piece (hang-plating), because I want them to be perfect. Putting the same bolts in a rotary plating process won't give this quality. The batch in the pictures is partly rotary plated, partly hang-plated, and set me back a little above 150 euro. It seems to be a steep price, but the value of all the parts I throw in is much, much higher.

These 8 mm bolts (special bolts for connecting the crank cases around the crank) for the CB400F in the left bag alone, are worth over 100 euro, if available. The process of plating takes only 2 to 4 days, cleaning-up and smoothen the parts takes hours and hours, sorting them is also time consuming.

Is it worth the money ?

Before I start a restoration I make a calculation of costs. Restoring this CB400F was on the edge of costs-value when I started the resto 12 years ago. In the past 12 years I acquired parts for the bike to replace the worn or bad parts.

I bought the bike for 1250 Euro back then, and considering it's condition, a good price, even when you add the 65.000 miles on the odo. The first owner I bought it from maintained the bike well, so most parts are in perfect shape (chrome / paintwork).

A simple calculation :

Total cost of the bike : 1250 Euro
Paintwork (not powder coating) frame and a few black parts like triple tree etc : 850 euro's
Total costs of all the new parts acquired over the last 12 years : 2300 Euro
Plating / chroming : 100 euro
Engine work (cutting valve seats) : 250 Euro

Total costs of this bike when ready is 4750 euro's, and that's a lot of money.

In my search for parts for this bike I bought some batches of parts, knowing that I didn't need them all. For example I acquired 2 camshafts, but needed only 1, my seat was nice, but found by accident a NOS one in the box, I bought a batch of 12 intake valves and 12 exhaust valves but needed only 4 of each, 2 NOS cylinder blocks, needing only one, etc, etc)

Many of those extra parts are sold during the last 4 years and until today it gave me back over 1500 euro, but I expect getting more. For example in my search for spokes I bought 30 Kg of unsorted Honda spokes, containing spokes for the CB400F, but also dream's, CB72 / 77 and CB450's, CB750 etc.

I expect to gain another 1000 euro from those parts alone, so the total costs when the bike is ready to ride will be around 2250 - 3250 Euro.

12 years ago this bike wasn't worth that kind of money, but times have changed....

btw, I'm not in for the money, because the hours spend on searching parts, working on the bike are not counted....



« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 05:17:22 AM by supersports400 »

Offline Kevin

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #141 on: January 09, 2022, 05:46:38 AM »
Your parts look great! It is not so easy to have parts plated in the USA, and much more expensive.
I know what a great feeling it is when you bring home the freshly plated parts.
It's been a few years, but I did have all my engine bolts nickel plated on one of my CB400F's. Another I had chrome plated.

 I had the engine bolts plated on a 400F engine that I rebuilt recently while living in Japan with something they called Chromate, it does not hold up very well, tends to flake off when a wrench is put on them.

 
A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #142 on: January 09, 2022, 06:02:54 AM »
Chrome plating is pretty expensive here, but zinc plating is cheap, especially when plating in bulk (rotary). I also read about new ways of "chroming", hoping that some day it can be used as an alternative, but your post shows we're not there yet
« Last Edit: January 09, 2022, 06:04:37 AM by supersports400 »

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2023, 06:43:13 AM »
« Last Edit: March 05, 2023, 06:46:43 AM by supersports400 »

Offline BenelliSEI

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #144 on: March 06, 2023, 06:04:46 AM »
Just read through it all. Well done, super nice work!

Offline Kevin

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #145 on: March 06, 2023, 06:13:52 AM »
Nice Work!
You really put a lot of time and effort into it, and it shows.
A couple of 400F's and a
'98 Suzuki Intruder VS1400 ~ for long rides

Offline Stev-o

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #146 on: March 06, 2023, 07:11:40 AM »
Finally, after 12 years, the bike is finished, and ready for the season.

Great job and dedication!  I've nominated you for BOTM....

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180400.msg2237016.html#new
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline supersports400

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #147 on: March 06, 2023, 01:18:10 PM »
Hi Steve,

Do you still have your Bomber ?

@ Kevin, thanks for the heads-up !
@BenelliSEI, I just read your sandcast thread ! nice !
« Last Edit: March 06, 2023, 01:20:04 PM by supersports400 »

Offline Stev-o

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #148 on: March 06, 2023, 02:32:31 PM »
Hi Steve,

Do you still have your Bomber?


Hi...yes, still have the Bomber!
'74 "Big Bang" Honda 750K [836].....'76 Honda 550F.....K3 Park Racer!......and a Bomber!............plus plus plus.........

Offline SOHC4 Cafe Racer Fan

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Re: A 1975 CB400F 102.000 km (65000 mi) complete engine rebuild
« Reply #149 on: March 06, 2023, 05:16:29 PM »
Is there a finished photo of the CB400f ?
1975 CB550K1 "Blue" Stockish Restomod (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=135005.0)
1975 CB550F1 frame/CB650 engine hybrid "The Hot Mess" (http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,150220.0.html)
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"There are some things nobody needs in this world, and a bright-red, hunch-back, warp-speed 900cc cafe racer is one of them — but I want one anyway, and on some days I actually believe I need one.... Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba." Hunter S. Thompson, Song of the Sausage Creature, Cycle World, March 1995.  (http://www.latexnet.org/~csmith/sausage.html and https://magazine.cycleworld.com/article/1995/3/1/song-of-the-sausage-creature)

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