Author Topic: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier  (Read 4776 times)

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Offline vinniefranco

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Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« on: March 01, 2010, 08:11:29 PM »
Hi there,

I recently picked up a nice regulator/rectifier from a 1979 CB750C and I was wondering if anyone could shed some light on the wiring swaps that I need to do to be able to hook this guy up.


Here is a picture of the little bugger
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timbe/4399705215/in/set-72157623361402394/

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2010, 09:37:06 PM »
You need to list the wire colors.
And what bike you are putting it into.  Is it using the stock harness?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline vinniefranco

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2010, 10:15:21 PM »
Whoops! Forgot that!

1970 Honda CB750

I am not using a stock harness, I built one using this diagram:
http://www.hondachopper.com/garage/simple_wiring_diagram/simple_wiring_diagram.html


Old Rectifier has
Green = Ground
Yellow = Alternator
Yellow = Alternator
Red/White = Switched power

Old Regulator has
Black = Ignition switch
White = Alternator
Green = Ground

New regulator/rectifier from 1979 CB750C has

6 Prong plug 5 prongs in use
White
Yellow
Yellow
Yellow
Black

4 prong plug 3 in use
Red/White
Black
Green

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2010, 10:39:10 PM »

New regulator/rectifier from 1979 CB750C has

6 Prong plug 5 prongs in use
White < to alternator slip rings in 79, to alternator field coil in for the 70
Yellow < to alternator stator (yellow)
Yellow < to alternator stator (yellow)
Yellow < to alternator stator (yellow)
Black < to alternator slip rings in 79, to alternator field coil in for the 70

The black and white wires are connected to each end of a field coil in the 79, supplying power and return.  The 70 field coil has only one power input with the other end connected to frame ground (green).  I expect either the white or Black wires to be a ground and the other a power distribution, but I don't know which.  The polarity may be important.  I would use a DMM set to ohms to see if either the white or the black wire has a connection to the green wire in the other plug, or the case mounting lugs and or case to determine if there is GND connection internally for the white or Black wires.  If so, that one ties to Green and the other goes to the white wire of the alternator field coil.

4 prong plug 3 in use
Red/White  < to Red/White battery POS connection
Black  < to black wires in harness or switched +12v.  This not only powers the Reg/Rect., it is also a battery voltage sense input.  So, it is important that there are little to no losses in the connection between here and the battery. All connectors and switches used should be low resistance.
Green  < to Green battery NEG connection

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline vinniefranco

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2010, 11:04:01 PM »
Excellent! Thank you so much

Offline Bodi

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2010, 01:47:21 AM »
You may have trouble. The DOHC4 reg/rect units I've used control the field opposite to the older SOHC4 system. The field is connected to +12V switched power (black wire) and the white wire is controlled between +12 (alternator off) to 0V (alternator 100%). It will not work if one end of the field coil is internally grounded. I'm not super familiar with the early wiring - the later (multifuse) systems have two wire field coils that are compatible with the DOHC4 reg/rect.

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2010, 08:41:27 AM »
I don't like 'em in our old SOHC bikes.....these solid state rec/reg are designed for a different type alternator ( as in the later DOHC bikes ).
Used instead of the stock electromechanical regulator the alt. applies 14+ volts constantly to the battery with, I guess, varying amperage vs. rpm. This is reported by a previous poster who installed one.  The original set-up allows the alt./battery rest periods by only turning-on to charge the battery when the voltage falls below 12v and turns off when 14v is achieved.( approx)... less battery boiling IMO...!!
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Offline vinniefranco

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2010, 02:28:06 PM »
So should I not use this setup? I was thinking this would be a more efficient way to run the charging system. Since I am going to be using a much smaller 12v 5ah battery kick only, with no turn signals.


Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 02:57:36 PM »
I don't like 'em in our old SOHC bikes.....these solid state rec/reg are designed for a different type alternator ( as in the later DOHC bikes ).
Used instead of the stock electromechanical regulator the alt. applies 14+ volts constantly to the battery with, I guess, varying amperage vs. rpm. This is reported by a previous poster who installed one.  The original set-up allows the alt./battery rest periods by only turning-on to charge the battery when the voltage falls below 12v and turns off when 14v is achieved.( approx)... less battery boiling IMO...!!

The mechanical regulator switches the field current between full current, to 0 current, while a solid state regulator varies the field current to maintain a constant voltage at the battery. Solid state regulators also tend to be more accurate.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2010, 03:59:09 PM »
I don't mean to put you off using a solid state reg/rect., Vinnie, but maybe someone who has already fitted one on a SOHC alt. can comment on how it works for them ...??
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Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2010, 04:30:42 PM »
The same principals apply to any alternator. Granted, the SOHCs do it a little differently, but they do have the advantage of no slip-ring brushes to wear out.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2010, 05:09:22 PM »
The later (DOHC) alts. with the slip-rings, brushes and wound rotor were notorious for failing..... was it because of the solid state reg./rect which ran the alt. all the time , voltage applied to the battery all the while the motor was running ??.... as against the older charge, rest, charge design....who knows.......  ( Im holding my opinion tho' !! ).
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Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2010, 05:43:06 PM »
I have first hand experience of 2 1979 CBXs, with almost identical miles, whose alternators failed at almost the exact same time (within 2 hours), while on a road trip in 1979! These bikes both had about 8000 miles. The failure was due to excessively worn outer slip ring brushes. We bought some brushes from an electric motor repair shop in Winnemucca, NV, and filed them down to fit. (even if there was a Honda shop near, they wouldn't have had the brushes; it took months after we got back home before the guys got the parts from Honda)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2010, 05:50:02 PM »
BUT!, was the excessive brush wear caused by the regulator design...i.e., calling for alt. output all the time....??
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Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2010, 05:57:41 PM »
NO! It was caused by a brush that was too soft, compounded by the large diameter of the outer slip ring. The inner slip ring brush saw the same current, but had a much slower surface speed due to the much smaller diameter. The current with a solid state regulator tends to be lower, because it doesn't switch from full on to full off.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2010, 05:58:23 PM »
So should I not use this setup? I was thinking this would be a more efficient way to run the charging system. Since I am going to be using a much smaller 12v 5ah battery kick only, with no turn signals.
Neither the Vreg or the Rectifier will make the existing alternator more efficient.
I just don't know if this regulator is compatible with the grounded field coil, (as Bodi pointed out.)

For discussion...
The standard mechanical regulator switches the alternator field between 12 to 6-ish to 0 in response to the battery voltage.  Since the battery voltage changes are linear, the mechanical switching frequency switches at a rate to provide whatever alternator power there is to the battery as needed in a linear fashion, due to the very high impedance that the battery provides to the circuit.  A linear circuit isn't necessary, as the stepped voltage, while more akin to a three level digital signal is moderated by the battery.  (Remember CDs put out digital signals but all the transducers in the path between generation and the human ear input, pretty much obscures any felt/perceived digital origin.)  The battery and bike are similar recipients of the digital stepping of the mechanical regulator.  In short, it doesn't care if the vreg is mechanical or linear operation.
Substituting an electronic regulator only changes the deterioration dynamic of the mechanical points wear.  So, mechanical ones need adjustment after 30-40 years, depending on how hard the regulator has to work over those 30 years.  
If you let the bike's battery deplete routinely, add more electrical loads, allow the wiring connectors to deteriorate, the vreg has to cycle more often to try and maintain battery state, and put max currents more often through the point contacts.

Depending on the regulator selected, an active device switch consumes some small amount of power and lowers the voltage driving the alternator to make power.  Whereas, a mechanical switch contact in good condition provides the full battery voltage to the alternator field so the alternator can put out the most power possible, (given the RPM is optimal).

The electronic regulator in the 79 750 may not care about the absolute max output of its alternator due to the higher output that model has relative to the CB750 70 model.  I suspect the 79 alternator in good condition will put out much better than the 210 watts the 70 model does.

Anyway, touting an electronic regulator as better at charging the SOHC4 battery than the mechanical one in good condition, is mostly sales pitch, IMO.  That probably sounds odd coming from an electronic engineer of 30 years.  But, there it is.
In fact, there is speculation and some evidence that pulsing the battery during charge is actually beneficial in disrupting cell sulfation deposits.  But, I have some doubts.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2010, 06:03:13 PM »
i have a solid state unit from electrosport on my k4 750. amazing how much better everything works now, and way less heat under that electrics cover. break even voltage comes on about 1750 rpms or so. if i were doing a concours restoration i'd use the original type units but for a daily rider solid state all the way for me
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2010, 06:22:38 PM »
Two things of note.... the alt. failed on a long run ( road trip ), i.e.  voltage being produced and passed across the brushes constantly ( microsparking continuously ) due to reg. design. Current produced and reg'd. by a solid state reg. may be lower overall, agreed, but it would be uninterrupted, hence no rest period,no cooling of the components and thermal runaway leading to failure of the rotor winding ( most common problem ).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 06:25:54 PM by Spanner 1 »
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 06:27:17 PM »
i have a solid state unit from electrosport on my k4 750. amazing how much better everything works now, and way less heat under that electrics cover. break even voltage comes on about 1750 rpms or so. if i were doing a concours restoration i'd use the original type units but for a daily rider solid state all the way for me

Are you comparing a 30 year old worn component with a new one?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 06:29:41 PM »
Take my word, I was there. It had nothing to do with the regulator. The reason it took so long for the guys to get their replacement brushes from Honda was they had just realized they had a major problem with the new charging systems, and had to figure out a fix. We found it before Honda, but then, they never asked us... ;)  
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2010, 06:46:02 PM »
With respect, Scottly, my question was regarding continuous duty charging systems ( voltage applied to battery all the time ) being the problem.... the brushes being ' too soft' was not the problem... harder compound brushes was not the fix. The system was overstressed by the regulator design IMO, with a SOHC mech. reg. cycling the charging system the rotors/brushes may have lasted forever !
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Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2010, 06:55:41 PM »
I'm trying to tell you continuous duty charging systems are actually easier on all components involved. The CBXs would have failed exactly the same way with a mechanical regulator, perhaps even sooner. The dohc charging problem was due to the mechanical wear of the outer slip ring brush, and the Honda fix was a harder brush, at the expense of increased slip ring wear.   
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2010, 07:11:26 PM »
We'll have to agree to disagree !... the Honda 'fix' of a 'harder' brush did not work... the rotors failed one after another because the regulators called for continuous duty from the rotor/brush combination which it was underdesigned to do and the copper melting deep in the rotor winding to produce an open circuit rotor.......
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Offline scottly

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Re: Help with rewiring a regulator/rectifier
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2010, 07:26:09 PM »
Then again, maybe, over time, the harder brushes wore through the slip ring and cut through the windings! I never had any long term feedback from either of those guys.
Thanks for bringing the failed rotor syndrome to my attention!
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....