Topic: Gas it up: what are you running?

[bird]

Here in Australia all our fuel is now unleaded, which I'm convinced Honda CB750s and lots of old bikes just don't like. There are additives to make it like the good old days,
but performance, reliability and thirst is just not the same. I'm curious what guys in the States, UK and Europe have for fuel and if you run unleaded do you have any issues,
and what steps have you taken to overcome any problems. One old school of thought down here is that the ancient Honda ignition system – points etc – doesn't have the power to burn unleaded effectively. Appreciate your thoughts. ^

[Laminar]

Here in Australia all our fuel is now unleaded, which I'm convinced Honda CB750s and lots of old bikes just don't like. There are additives to make it like the good old days,
but performance, reliability and thirst is just not the same. I'm curious what guys in the States, UK and Europe have for fuel and if you run unleaded do you have any issues,
and what steps have you taken to overcome any problems. One old school of thought down here is that the ancient Honda ignition system – points etc – doesn't have the power to burn unleaded effectively. Appreciate your thoughts. ^

I run whatever I can find without ethanol - typically 87 Octane unleaded.

[shizzomynizzo]

Over here in the states unleaded is the norm. Leaded racing fuel can be had at or near drag strips and race tracks. I live in the suburbs of Detroit and it's pretty common around here at some stations. I know of 7 local gas stations (within 20 miles) that sell leaded.

It is illegal (I think) to run it on the road, but I run a tank every now and again. My 550 does not run noticeably different on it, and it's between 2 and 3 times more expensive than unleaded.

[shizzomynizzo]

Here in Australia all our fuel is now unleaded, which I'm convinced Honda CB750s and lots of old bikes just don't like. There are additives to make it like the good old days,
but performance, reliability and thirst is just not the same. I'm curious what guys in the States, UK and Europe have for fuel and if you run unleaded do you have any issues,
and what steps have you taken to overcome any problems. One old school of thought down here is that the ancient Honda ignition system – points etc – doesn't have the power to burn unleaded effectively. Appreciate your thoughts. ^

I run whatever I can find without ethanol - typically 87 Octane unleaded.

Doesn't ALL unleaded gas in America have ethanol? 10% by law is what I thought. I could be wrong though

And I was, there is a big tax break for gas with Ethanol, that is why it's so common.

[Don R]

There was non alcohol gas available but I haven't checked recently. My club car golf car that we use to tow the dragster hates gasahol. Vapor locks bad. I've been known to tip a little race gas in sometimes especially if it's going to sit a while. Race gas stores way better.

[shizzomynizzo]

I know a few guys with boats who hate it too, it was not in marine fuel until just a few years back, now it's the same as at the car pump and still costs 40-60 cents more.

I guess it ruins their fiberglass tanks, costs tons of money to fix. (chopping the hull up to get at them)
Also bad for the motors too.

[kck3]

Yeah in boats it can cause fuel tank failure, fuel system blockage, increased fuel usage and engine damage. The ethanol can cause fuel to leak into th bilge.  The ethanol can also work as a cleanser and can dislodge small particles that will  clog fuel injector nozzles and carbs.  Its no bueno for the boating community.  It can also combine with water in the tank and prevent the engine from firing.

[bucky katt]

shell, 87 octane unleaded. most gas, if not all of it here in the midlands of south carolina all gas has 10% ethanol. the k4 doesnt run right on anything but the low octane gas. ken at the cycle exchange recomends the shell because of the detergent package they use. nearly half a million miles on my saturn with shell being used 98% of the time and it still runs perfectly.

[Laminar]

Doesn't ALL unleaded gas in America have ethanol? 10% by law is what I thought. I could be wrong though

And I was, there is a big tax break for gas with Ethanol, that is why it's so common.

At most gas stations in Iowa, you have a choice of:

- non-Ethanol 87 Octane
- 10% Ethanol 89 Octane
- non-Ethanol 91 Octane premium

Some places have E85, some places have 92 or 93 Octane non-Ethanol, and some have 10% Ethanol 91 Octane, but those three are the most common. The 10% ethanol is typically ~10 cents cheaper than the 87, which is another 10 cents cheaper than the 91.

[Deltarider]

Fuel has changed over the years. I'm certain my bike was happiest with the fuel that was around in the 70s. Although lead is rightly banned and our bikes can do without, some way or another mine ran better with that old gasoline. I can't explain why this was. Others (including mechanics) had the same experience. Some went so far to mix the new gas with Avgaz (I believe 1:40).
Having travelled, I can say the best fuel has always been in Germany, Netherlands, Switzerland, Italy, and maybe some other European countries. Gasoline in USA is not much better than in the third world.
Only a few years ago fuel improved again with the coming of Shell's Pura (later to become V-Power), BP Ultimate and Aral 100. They really clean away old deposits, keep valves and upper pistonrings clean and driveability has improved (more bite). Gasolines differ between countries. Shell's V-power in Germany differs already from the V-power in Holland. Today Shell's cheapest, the Euro 95 Fuel Save already offers cleaning and friction modifiers like the more expensive gasolines. The others offer higher octane like 98 or even 100 (V-Power in Germany and Aral). I have best results with BP Ultimate.

[faux fiddy]

Interesting question, and there is some interesting information about Oklahoma's laws that require disclosure of the amount of ethanol.  A class action was filed and as of July 1, 2008 stations are required to disclose that their gasoline contains alcohol.  Shortly after that date, signs sprung up all over at gasoline stations proudly stating  our gasoline is 100% gasoline   at the stations that do have non-alcohol product.

This was just overturned on appeal (January of 2010), the plaintiffs are not granted releif for gasoline sold before the ruling, but the law requiring disclosure of alcohol content does remain in place.

http://www.morelaw.com/verdicts/case.asp?n=2010%20OK%203&s=OK&d=42555
¶2 In May 2008 Mark Rogers, Terry O'Rorke, and William Wilson (plaintiffs) brought a putative class action against Quiktrip Corporation, Love's Travel Stops and Country Stores, Inc., and 7-Eleven, L.L.C., (collectively called defendants or fuel sellers) urging the latter sold gasoline containing the additive ethanol without disclosing its content in the fuel sold to customers. The plaintiffs contend that defendants' failure to disclose the ethanol content of gasoline constitutes breach of contract, breach of express and implied warranties2 and a violation of the Oklahoma Consumer Protection Act, 15 O.S. § 751 et seq.
[  ]

See: http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/deliverdocument.asp?cite=2010+OK+3

Outcome: ¶17 The trial judge correctly ruled that jurisdiction over today's cause lay in the district court. The asserted plaintiffs' claims - for breach of contract, breach of express and implied warranties and for violation of the Oklahoma Consumer Protection Act, 15 O.S. § 751 et seq. - were bottomed on defendants' alleged duty to disclose the ethanol content of the fuel sold to plaintiffs. A review of the pertinent legislation reveals the terms of 17 O.S. Supp. 2003 § 620 must clearly control here. They provide that the defendants, until 1 July 2008 when the terms of 52 O.S. Supp. 2008 § 347 became effective, were under no duty to disclose the ethanol content of their fuel. Because at the time the plaintiffs' filed their claim the law imposed no duty on the defendants to disclose the ethanol content of gasoline, they cannot be held liable for breach of contract, breach of express and implied warranties or for violation of the Oklahoma Consumer Protection Act, 15 O.S. § 751 et seq. The plaintiffs' petition clearly failed to state a claim upon which relief may be granted.

¶18 The trial judge's ruling under review is affirmed in part and reversed in part; the cause is remanded for further proceedings to be consistent with this pronouncement.

******


On another note, while at another place in desert California where offroad recreation is popular I was amazed to see the winnebagos with toy haulers lining up to buy race gas at the pump in a veritable ghost town.


http://www.davebarton.com/Unleaded_Racing_Fuel_in_SoCal

[dave500]

were only just getting ethanol here in australia now in our cheap end fuel(and we hate it!!!),we get good 98 premium everywhere(no eth),we have the lower end peasant fuel is 10%flat beer(ethanol)at 91,then unleaded like 95 ,then the top shelf 98,,my high compression holden 5 litre v8 sings on 98 (pre smog type ,has a pcv only),with 16 degrees initial and 38 total,vac pulls it to 42 with high vacuum cruising,the dissy has been curved,,the 500 with xl125 pistons runs best on 98,its got a boyer ignition and you cant fiddle with the curve.,i had to have the combustion chambers machined to lower the compression a little,i dread the day our octanes lower,we havent had lead for years(80s)which is good all round for things like exhausts,plugs,oil contamination and childrens lungs.

[faux fiddy]

Not sure what the legal system is like in AU , but maybe you can get a few people together with the right lawyer and claim your machines have been damaged by ethanol and they will start giving a low end option without the foster's dregs.

There is that precident  mentioned above. It seems like any other of the states could do the same.

[dave500]

the non lead dosent really hurt the valve seats i dont think on the jap bikes,older pom,err i mean english bikes have a cast iron valve insert which is softer as compared to the jap harder ones,by the way i was born in catford/london 1958,and floated on the fairsky to adelaide in 1965.,do me a favour,leave it out .

[dave500]

hey bird,i tried running quality nulon octane booster before i had my compression lowered,it did reduce pinging but left an ungodly red/orange build up on the plugs,when i pulled the head it looked like it was really stacking up with this red stuff!!!!!in lumpy bubbles,(i only used it for two tank fulls at half measure!!!),my compression was way too high though,it only pinged in the higher revs under load like up a steep hill,ive never liked any additives fuel or oil and this is the first and last time ill tinker with them!!ill post photos if ive still got them....edit,,deleted photos already.,the old points system in good nick is fine ,itll burn new fuels ok.im using a boyer ignition.

[MasterChief750]

all gas here in ohio is 10% ethanol. i usually run 94 octane they have a sunoco. or ill put in premium from whatever gas station i run out at. living right on the stat line of ohio and michigan sucks because im michigan all they usually have is 91 for premium. i know of a few stations that have racing fuel, its "illegal" to pump it into a vehicle but if it goes from pump to gas can, no one really says a word. there is a sunoco that has 100 octane unleaded near here but its expensive. the 94 is usually $.40 more that regular unleaded. but my bike loves the 94. runs like s**t on regular.

[dave500]

man,,!! that makes our 98 sound like nectar of the gods!!were only getting news of ethanol ruining plasics and rubber latley,,who in the past tried mixing leaded with unleaded to set of a chemical reaction to increase your octane,,was this ever proven?

[Laminar]

man,,!! that makes our 98 sound like nectar of the gods!!

Keep in mind that the US uses a different method to calculate the octane number displayed on the gas pump, so your 98 octane is equivalent to 91 or 92 in the states (don't have the numbers in front of me).

[faux fiddy]

Some places like small local airfields you can find AVgas, which I think is 100 and might be leaded.  But again, this creates convienience/storage/hazmat problem.

[Deltarider]

Keep in mind that the US uses a different method to calculate the octane number

Yep, MON, RON and AKI.
More info at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating.

If possible I'd stay away from gasolines that are hygroscopic.

[eurban]

Lots of info already but here's a bit of focus to the original question.  In the US we have essentially been running unleaded only gasoline on the street for decades.  Our SOHCs bikes run fine on this fuel and typically in unmodified forms do not require anything but low octane.  There may be more frequent carb cleanings as the result of more rapid fuel "spoilage" (turning to varnish) but overall the SOHC is a reliable machine on unleaded.  Did the bikes run better on 70's leaded gas??  Don't know. What's the impact of ethanol etc mixing in?  Don't know.  This question does come up fairly often so you can search the subject to help convince yourself.  Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

[MasterChief750]

heres a thought, ever seen what ethanol does to a rubber fuel line over time? eats straight through it. on vehicles that run e85 the fuel system needs to be ethanol proofed. most late model cars are equipped to handle the 10% ethanol in pump fuel. another reason i use the sunoco 94 in my bike is suposedly it does not have the ethnol in it. or so they say. pump still says it may contain the 10% but the bike runs fine on unleaded. you may notice the unleaded acting funny in old cars designed to run it. especially if you use a lower octane fuel. to my knowledge lead was used as a anti knock agent, could be wrong, just what i was told.

[BobbyR]

The lead was a anti knock agent which also deposited itself on the valve stems and acted as a lubricant. It also depostied itself on plugs. Working in a reapir shop in High School all cars had lead fouled plugs, not a big deal.

Here in the US unleaded was being phased in, you could get both, so we reamed out the fillers so we could use the cheaper leaded. Word spread that if you mixed the two fuels adding leaded to the unleaded you could raise the Octane of the fuel in your tank. I found I could get an extra two degrees timing with the mixture.

Honda made the engine mods for unleaded so the engine is OK. The real effect was ethanol, which knocks down your mileage. Seat of the pants tells me there is no real performance difference, but their is a mileage. I was making weekly runs to Pa and a Shell station there sold no Ethanol gas. I found I was getting much better mileage with that fuel. I filled up with some E85 on one trip since it was cheaper. I made it fine through the Mountains, but the mileage was way down.

In congested places like Southern NY, the lead levels found in plants along the Highways was astounding, so they had to take out the Lead. What did they put in later was MBTE which polluted underground aquifers at astounding speed.

Would our vintage bikes run better on the fuel available at the time, probably yes.

[dave500]

weve only been lead free for 5 or 6 years here.

[Retro Rocket]

Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

Remember that we only have 20 million people spread out over a huge area, we didn't have as much a problem with accumulated lead as in the States. Also the Unleaded is just as dangerous or even worse that the leaded it replaces, the exhaust gasses from unleaded are a lot more toxic than the old leaded. The ethanol blend fuels are no good for older vehicles unless you change out all the old rubber seals and fuel line sections, as someone else said, it just dissolves them over time. I can't use ethanol in my lawn mower either because it has a plastic carby on it and it just melts it.....Ethanol is a lot more corrosive and volatile than petroleum.

Mick