Topic: Gas it up: what are you running?

[Jim F]

110 Torco race fuel (Leaded)

[Don R]

My dad had a fuel filter that melted with ethanol, the hose squeezed the inlet closed.

I have used the shell in my company car, the mileage meter went up 1 1/2 mpg and stayed there. I think it cleaned the injectors.

[bucky katt]

i understand that gasoline huffing is such a problem in some parts of Australia that a special type of gas that you cant use as an inhalant is used. true?

[Retro Rocket]

i understand that gasoline huffing is such a problem in some parts of Australia that a special type of gas that you cant use as an inhalant is used. true?

I don't know about any special type of gas but the sniffing is only a problem with the Aboriginals, its not really a mainstream problem at all, only seems to be in the remote areas of the country.

Mick

[BLUE71TURBO]

  GOOD OLE VP C16 RACING FUEL !!   The old blue turbo loves this sh!t !!   

                                     

[eurban]

Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

Also the Unleaded is just as dangerous or even worse that the leaded it replaces, the exhaust gasses from unleaded are a lot more toxic than the old leaded. The ethanol blend fuels are no good for older vehicles unless you change out all the old rubber seals and fuel line sections, as someone else said, it just dissolves them over time. I can't use ethanol in my lawn mower either because it has a plastic carby on it and it just melts it.....Ethanol is a lot more corrosive and volatile than petroleum.

Mick

I'm going to call you on this one.  Can you please elaborate on how the exhaust gases from modern unleaded fuels are more toxic??  Also, I don't think anyone is seriously talking about running ethanol in a SOHC or even E85 for that matter.  In the past, fuels around here  (Mid atlantic US) were "oxygenated" during certain months of the year (winter time for instance) to supposedly help with seasonal air quality issues.  I honestly don't know what the exact policy is today, but we are basically talking about adding something like 10% of an ethanol (or similar) product to the gasoline.  My fuel lines, lawn mower carb parts etc etc don't seem to be effected.  Winter gas mileage in my auto is noticeably lower with the fuel being at least somewhat to blame.  I have seen some convincing evidence that fiberglass fuel tanks may have problems with alcohol additives . . . . All this seems to be confusing the subject of using unleaded gasoline in SOHCs with the effects of adding ethanol or oxygenating additives to unleaded gasoline. You can certainly have unleaded gasoline without ethanol in it.   I mentioned it previously, but do keep in mind that we have been running unleaded only for decades over here (whether or not it is healthier) and have had gazillions of SOHCs soldiering on for gazillions of miles.  The proof is in the pudding and the pudding tastes OK!  Don't be afraid of change! Keep on riding!

[bird]

Thanks petrol heads, one and all. Seems fuel is a wide-open subject. Let's hope they don't regulate old bikes (and cars) off the road via the bowser.

^^

[BobbyR]

Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

Also the Unleaded is just as dangerous or even worse that the leaded it replaces, the exhaust gasses from unleaded are a lot more toxic than the old leaded. The ethanol blend fuels are no good for older vehicles unless you change out all the old rubber seals and fuel line sections, as someone else said, it just dissolves them over time. I can't use ethanol in my lawn mower either because it has a plastic carby on it and it just melts it.....Ethanol is a lot more corrosive and volatile than petroleum.

Mick

I'm going to call you on this one.  Can you please elaborate on how the exhaust gases from modern unleaded fuels are more toxic??  Also, I don't think anyone is seriously talking about running ethanol in a SOHC or even E85 for that matter.  In the past, fuels around here  (Mid atlantic US) were "oxygenated" during certain months of the year (winter time for instance) to supposedly help with seasonal air quality issues.  I honestly don't know what the exact policy is today, but we are basically talking about adding something like 10% of an ethanol (or similar) product to the gasoline.  My fuel lines, lawn mower carb parts etc etc don't seem to be effected.  Winter gas mileage in my auto is noticeably lower with the fuel being at least somewhat to blame.  I have seen some convincing evidence that fiberglass fuel tanks may have problems with alcohol additives . . . . All this seems to be confusing the subject of using unleaded gasoline in SOHCs with the effects of adding ethanol or oxygenating additives to unleaded gasoline. You can certainly have unleaded gasoline without ethanol in it.   I mentioned it previously, but do keep in mind that we have been running unleaded only for decades over here (whether or not it is healthier) and have had gazillions of SOHCs soldiering on for gazillions of miles.  The proof is in the pudding and the pudding tastes OK!  Don't be afraid of change! Keep on riding!

Ethanol combustion in an internal combustion engine yields many of the products of incomplete combustion produced by gasoline and significantly larger amounts of formaldehyde and related species such as acetaldehyde.[28] This leads to a significantly larger photochemical reactivity that generates much more ground level ozone.[29] These data have been assembled into The Clean Fuels Report comparison of fuel emissions[30] and show that ethanol exhaust generates 2.14 times as much ozone as does gasoline exhaust. When this is added into the custom "Localised Pollution Index (LPI)" of The Clean Fuels Report the local pollution, i.e. that which contributes to smog, is 1.7 on a scale where gasoline is 1.0 and higher numbers signify greater pollution. This issue has been formalized by the California Air Resources Board in 2008 by recognizing control standards for formaldehydes as an emissions control group much like the conventional NOx and Reactive Organic Gases (ROGs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

[Retro Rocket]

Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

Also the Unleaded is just as dangerous or even worse that the leaded it replaces, the exhaust gasses from unleaded are a lot more toxic than the old leaded. The ethanol blend fuels are no good for older vehicles unless you change out all the old rubber seals and fuel line sections, as someone else said, it just dissolves them over time. I can't use ethanol in my lawn mower either because it has a plastic carby on it and it just melts it.....Ethanol is a lot more corrosive and volatile than petroleum.

Mick

I'm going to call you on this one.  Can you please elaborate on how the exhaust gases from modern unleaded fuels are more toxic??  Also, I don't think anyone is seriously talking about running ethanol in a SOHC or even E85 for that matter.  In the past, fuels around here  (Mid atlantic US) were "oxygenated" during certain months of the year (winter time for instance) to supposedly help with seasonal air quality issues.  I honestly don't know what the exact policy is today, but we are basically talking about adding something like 10% of an ethanol (or similar) product to the gasoline.  My fuel lines, lawn mower carb parts etc etc don't seem to be effected.  Winter gas mileage in my auto is noticeably lower with the fuel being at least somewhat to blame.  I have seen some convincing evidence that fiberglass fuel tanks may have problems with alcohol additives . . . . All this seems to be confusing the subject of using unleaded gasoline in SOHCs with the effects of adding ethanol or oxygenating additives to unleaded gasoline. You can certainly have unleaded gasoline without ethanol in it.   I mentioned it previously, but do keep in mind that we have been running unleaded only for decades over here (whether or not it is healthier) and have had gazillions of SOHCs soldiering on for gazillions of miles.  The proof is in the pudding and the pudding tastes OK!  Don't be afraid of change! Keep on riding!

All the mower shops i have dealt with say DON'T use ethanol in the mowers with plastic carbies, i have already had one carb changed due to this and will NEVER use E10 in any of my 2 stroke yard tools again. Do an internet search about unleaded fuels, the new additives like Benzine, that are supposed to make it "better" increase the amount of dioxins and carcinogens that come out of the exhaust, there was a story here not long ago saying that in the future there will be a rash of law suits from mechanics working on these cars because of cancers and illnesses attributed to the lower quality unleaded fuels, apparently our lowest level unleaded is no longer used in Europe and as usual it will take us 10 years to follow.  It has nothing to do with being afraid of change, quite the opposite, it is more like being informed and making the correct choices.

Here is an exert from a study done by a South African scientist.

Heindl, of the Institute of Geopathology of South Africa, describes lead-free petrol as a 'poison ejector'. He says that the ban of leaded petrol is not a progressive, environment-friendly initiative as many imagine it to be. He says that catalytic converters cannot withstand lead and high-powered engines cannot be operated with unleaded petrol (ULP) unless the petrol contains aromatics like benzine, which have to be added to the ULP. He says the European Union (EU) allows only 5% additive and the USA a maximum of only 1%, though investigations prove a presence of 19%. When one pumps 80 litres of ULP into a car's petrol tank, he claims that 5 kg of pure benzine enters the tank, forming the 'much-feared carcinogens', aromatic poly-nuclears (APN).
 
Heindl says the most commonly known APNs are benzopyrene, benzo-anthracene, cyren, phenantren and anthracen. He warns that even 1% benzine is too much, as it is highly poisonous. Benzine, he says, is absorbed by the human body through the inhaling of gases, but also through the skin and via the stomach and intestinal tract. A concentration will be found in the fatty tissue, bone marrow and central nervous system. Heindl claims that benzine can enter the blood and there convert into phenol (hydroxybenzene). Phenol is a carbolic acid and reacts highly acidic and works like a strong cell poison. Tiredness, weakness, insomnia, dizziness, nausea and palpitations can result. In advanced cases of bone marrow damage, mucus-membrane bleeding and nose tumours can develop, with a high risk of leukaemia. Heindl quotes a chemist at the German environmental department as saying that all drivers should have to wear gas masks when filling up with ULP, advising that children and other passengers get out before the car enters the filling station, to ensure that they are not coming into contact with these damaging fumes during filling up with unleaded normal or premium petrol. He quotes Auto Bild as saying 960-Million litres of benzine (at a proportion of 3% in ULP) is flowing into German petrol tanks. The 'technical instruction for keeping the air clean' (TA-Luft) provided emission limits for benzine, but is seen by some experts as insufficient. He quotes 'official reports' that state that the average benzine content in large cities and in the blood of its citizens is five to ten times higher than in rural areas. He says the Neue Ärztliche medical journal warns people not to underestimate benzine emissions, stating that it has a leukaemia-generating effect and that a TV broadcast on the ZDF TV channel on May 20, 1989, stated that 1,000 persons die yearly from benzine vapours from petrol.

From a British study

The use of a whole mixture of aromatic additives in petrol may leave us with a heritage of increased cancer and leukaemia amongst adults and children. Because of its ability to be absorbed even through skin contact, benzene is a high risk substance. And the other aromatics convert to benzene in combustion.

Service stations then become high risk areas. ULP and super ULP are dangerous in the air. Super ULP (which has over 30% aromatics) is so risky an all-party committee in Britain recommended its banning in 1994. It stated, “The potential health hazards resulting from the excessive aromatics used ... outweigh any possible benefits from the reduced lead”. In April 1995 the British government announced that super ULP is to be progressively withdrawn over the next two years.

Conclusions

What to conclude? There seem to be flaws in the scientific information demonstrating that lead in petrol is a threat to people. The aromatics added to petrol to make up for the loss of lead constitute a threat in themselves. It seems that the aromatic additives -- benzene, toluene, xylene, mesitlylene and dimethylbenzene may be as risky to health or even more dangerous than lead additives. In particular, benzene is rated as one of the most toxic and carcinogenic chemicals in atmospheric pollutants.

The role of catalytic converters in the removal of toxic airborne pollutants is also under question. It seems that catalytic converters may have much less of a useful life than we have been led to believe.

There has been  piles of research done on the dangers of unleaded fuel additives....

Mick

[w1sa]

Yes, It does seem that in the haste and rash of political decisions to protect us and eliminate the dreaded leaded bullet, that we have been fed a placebo in the arguments supporting/justifying the use of unleaded fuel. The placebo effect now appears less and less effective and we may (most likely) now have to deal with the real dangers of unleaded fuel's exotic cocktails with more drastic changes, technical sophistication and associated costs, than the original (leaded) symptoms required....?   

[eurban]

Mick,
Thanks for the well informed follow up post.  That's so much more educational and believable than simply stating that "unleaded fuel gases are more toxic".  I do appreciated the time you spent to elaborate.   We are still mixing unleaded and unleaded with ethanol up in our "health" discussion a bit but it may be a moot point if I can only buy gasoline with ethanol added at the pump.   I will say that lead is an very well documented toxic substance.  Do you want cancer or brain damaged children? Not much of a choice is it, and if we added lead back to the fuel would we obviate the need for all these additives that have other health effects?  I don't know but it seems unlikely . . . . I am sticking to my experience (as well as my sense of the shared experience over here) of using oxygenated unleaded gasoline in vehicles, lawn equipment etc etc.  No rapidly disappearing rubber or plastic parts but worse gas mileage. Fiberglass gas tanks (frequently in boats for instance) do seem to have significant problems.  I have had a couple of Honda MCs that had plastic floats (77,78 750, 81 Cb650 for ex) that spent many seasons on oxygenated fuels without issue.  My 10 year old lawn mower and 20 year old chain saw are still going fine.  Perhaps the parts for our market have been "updated" for our fuels but I don't really think so. . . .  As to "being afraid of change," I was jokingly commenting on the original posters concern about using unleaded fuel in a SOHC and not intending some sort blanket statement about how we should have faith that big brother always knows what is best.  . . .I also have to admit that I find it a bit amusing when the "will unleaded gas hurt my SOHC motorcycle?" question comes up (which it does every so often) that it takes so much convincing that the answer is essentially "no it won't" or perhaps "not enough that you should worry about it"  Like I said, we've already been forced into running this experiment for a very long time.  

[Retro Rocket]

I will say that lead is an very well documented toxic substance.  Do you want cancer or brain damaged children? Not much of a choice is it,

Its all smoke and mirrors, there was a rather large study done here while lead was still in use and it involved doing a study of kids lead levels in the country and in the city and it resulted in the fact that there were no elevated levels of the city kids due to the fact that the lead particles don't stay in the air, they are too heavy so they spend minimal time in the air so aren't breathed in as are the chemicals that are in ULP. The paper was tabled in parliment and totally discarded as the government didn't want to hear that the lead wasn't a significant problem and were set on the change to ULP as it was a more expensive fuel and they would be able to get more tax from it, it was a little more involved than that but thats the gist of it and from what i have read similar things have been found overseas as well. Also the life of catalytic converters that have to be used on cars that use ULP don't last anywhere as long as we have been lead to believe actually some of the reports i have read suggest that after as little as 6-7000 miles they basically do nothing and for small trips around town or to the shop they don't work at all as they have to reach a temp of 400 degrees before they work properly. All i know is we are paying more for crap fuel that is worse for us than the previous fuels and the oil companies are making a killing from it.......Doesn't really surprise anyone does it?

Mick

[jworth94]

100LL (low lead)

It's sold at all general aviation airports.

It's got some lead in it for the required anti-knock properties required for piston powered general aviation airplanes. 

My CB550 seems to love it.  It's definately more expensive, but it doesn't contain any ethanol.  I've heard too many bad stories about ethanol to warrant putting it in my 30+ year old motorcycle.

Jon

[w1sa]

That 100LL is equivalent to 108 RON (about 103 AKI?). It also contains about .4g/l (or so) lead, which is probably far more than you need for valve seat protection in a stock motor (especially with hardened/steel seats). It may also induce lead fouling in the cylinders/plugs.

I use a mix of 100LL and ethanol free unleaded in my older motorcycle engines with cast iron valve seats. As an example, a ratio of say 1 LLavgas: 4 parts 95 RON unleaded will yeild a 97/98 Ron fuel (about 93/94 AKI) with enough lead to protect cast iron seats in motorcycle engines in normal use.

Changing the ratio obviuosly increases/decreases the lead/ octane levels, depending on your requirements.    

[BobbyR]

This is all academic for those of us in the States. We have been lead free for over 20 years ans even our beloved NASCAR has gone lead free. Good luck, we are screwed over here.

Here is an article from the NY Times on Ethanol. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/26/business/26ethanol.html

Here is the kicker. Henry Ford who did not invent the Automobile but did develop a process to mass produce them and lower the cost, wanted to run them on Alcohol.  Gasoline was a waste product and therefore cheaper. If Henry had gone as originally planned, this discussion would never take place. Funny how things work. 

[Mekun]

In Oregon ive been running e80 crap because that's all there is. But recently they passed a law allowing supreme fuel to have no ethanol. Isnt supreme to high of an octane for a cb550?

[eurban]

You won't have any issues running high octane gasoline in your 550 other than the increased dent in your wallet.  If it gets you better gas mileage (because of the lack of ethanol) then it might even out but probably not.  It also might degrade less over long periods of sitting and won't tend to absorb water.  Sounds like it would be a good call for a recreational motorcycle that isn't used a daily form of transport.

[Deltarider]

You won't have any issues running high octane gasoline in your 550.

+1
Besides, ethanol is not ethical.

[Laminar]

Can't believe it has taken AUS this long to get the lead out!

Remember that we only have 20 million people spread out over a huge area, we didn't have as much a problem with accumulated lead as in the States. Also the Unleaded is just as dangerous or even worse that the leaded it replaces, the exhaust gasses from unleaded are a lot more toxic than the old leaded.

edit: Oops, missed page 2.

[bucky katt]

i havent been able to find any kind of pump gas in the Columbia area in any of my travels that doesnt have 10% ethanol IF i ever get to build another hot-rodded vw i'll run e85 if i turbocharge it though.

[jworth94]

w1sa,

We're probably saying the same thing, but the lead content in 100LL is 2 grams per gallon.  I believe the regular fuel of years past contained 1 gram per gallon.

The general aviation fleet has been looking for a replacement for 100LL for some time.  Apparently, the lead (TEL) does a very good job of reducing knock.  There doesn't seem to be a simple replacement.  Coincidentally, on some aircraft you can burn autogas without ethanol.  The ethanol laden gas is not permitted in any GA airplane, for a good reason. 

There doesn't seem to be a valve buildup of lead with airplanes.  Maybe the design is such that it isn't a problem.  I think the lead build-up in motorcycles could be more reflective of how the engine is set up.  If you run really rich, you're going to have issues.  If you get your carbs tuned at all power settings, I think this issue goes away.
 
In my local area, I have to travel pretty far to find any autogas without ethanol, although it does still exist.  I'd like to avoid it at all cost with this older bike.  I guess I'll take my chances on a higher than usual lead content with avgas.  Avgas does have some other additional properties that make it ideal for my bike.  It doesn't degrade like autogas and won't produce the dreaded varnish in the carbs.  It's also a much cleaner fuel.  It doesn't travel by pipeline anywhere.  It's basically delivered from refinery to the airport(s) by truck.  Unlike autogas, that travels in the same pipeline at different times.

I can't find the differences between the octane rating, RON, and AKI.  The aviation fuel has a lean octane rating and a rich supercharged octane rating.  For 100LL those numbers are 100 and 130 respectively.    I did find that in an aircraft built in Australia (Diamond) they allow either 100LL or unleaded autofuel with a minimum 90 RON/87 AKI in at least one of their aircraft.

Jon

[Kframe]

I'm not sure what the regulations are here in Minnesota, but it seems like most places I look have a 10% blend, and you can only find non-oxygenated in 93 premium.  So that's what I buy for the bikes.  (Not for the 93, but for the non-oxy.)
-K