Topic: Field and Stator coil question

[NickC]

Tested rectifier using the same sequence as before, but with the diode setting.
.53 across the board one way
Inf. across the board with reversed leads.

Also, jumped the regulator, with no increase in charging capacity. I think i was getting 12v at 2k RPM.....

Vreg black to battery POS turned out 1.2-1.4 V

[TwoTired]

Vreg black to battery POS turned out 1.2-1.4 V

This is certainly not good.
The field strength in the alternator is surely lower than it expects to have. 
You could try to run a separate wire from battery POS to the White wire.  This ought to bring up the power output from the alternator.

However, the voltage loss you've measured is certainly A problem.
POS battery power runs through several connections, fuse terminals, and switches, which are probably corroded and resistive, which is losing power to drive the alternator.

US the wire diagram like a road map to follow the path between Battery POS and the black wire at the Vreg.  Each connection/device in the path is suspect for losing voltage.  You can measure the loss by placing the voltmeter probes on either side of connector, fuse terminals, or switch, to find the worst offenders.  But, you are probably better off just cleaning, lubing, and making sure each connection fits tightly and has a good grab on it's mate.  If you do it right, the connection between battery POS terminal and Vreg will lose no more than 0.5V.   If you clean the vreg contacts too, the alternator field coil should "see" a higher voltage and make the alternator work harder.

Because of the Dyna-s, your coils draw more power than stock.  This means you engine will have to rev a bit higher to make more power than the bike consumes and still have some left over to gradually increase the battery voltage.

Which reminds me.  All those connectors between the alternator and the battery terminals need to be clean, tight, and low resistive, too.  And don't forget the ground path back to Battery NEG terminal.

Cheers,

[scottly]

TT, I think you've nailed it to the reg, by noting the .5V drop across the reg. (Campbics reg measurements showed no drop across the reg.) Good eye! 

[NickC]

Welp, I know what I'll be doing tonight, time to make a beer run! 

[NickC]

Here's a question, from the VR with everything hooked up, should I be getting resistance to ground from all 3 connections? (white, green, and black?)

[scottly]

Are you trying to test a new regulator before you try it out? Or did you install the new reg and it doesn't work?

[NickC]

No new regulator, I haven't replaced anything as of yet.

[scottly]

Here's a question, from the VR with everything hooked up, should I be getting resistance to ground from all 3 connections? (white, green, and black?)

With everything hooked up:
1. Yes, you should have continuity from the green to ground: the green is where the ground is connected to the reg.
2. Yes, you should have continuity from white to ground, through the field coil. It doesn't tell you anything about the reg itself.
3. Maybe, for black to ground, depending on the type of reg.
The point is that you can't really check a reg with an ohmmeter. All resistance checks may be good, and the reg may still not operate properly.
 

[NickC]

Ok, here's why I ask. I'm trying to figure out/clean up some of the POs wiring. I was tracing out the wiring diagram:
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/WiringDiagrams/CB550.jpg

From what I gather, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, the VR obtains it's battery feedback through the starter magnetic switch. In my manual (non clymer) it shows the starter magnetic switch as only having the two posts. However, my switch has a 4 prong connection on the top of it, which contains all the wires shown going into the SSM unit.
On my bike, there is a black bullet connector that is disconnected, and i'm trying to figure out what it goes to.
So basically what I'm trying to say is that the only black wire I have is coming from the turn signal relay to the VR....

[scottly]

All the black wires come from the ignition switch, are electrically connected to each other, and provide power to the reg and solenoid and smsu, among other things, when the key is turned on. Were you thinking the black is ground? Green wires are ground in these systems.

[TwoTired]

The most meaningful resistance check of the VR is between the White and Black terminals.
At rest, this should be zero ohms.

The black connection is used for two purposes by the VR.  One, is to determine the battery charge state (voltage level) with reference to the green connection (which ultimately should be the Battery NEG terminal).

Second, the black wire input is the source of power to be distributed to the alternator field coil as the VR decides to distribute.  Battery low state, and the full potential on the Black wire gets connected directly to the White wire.
There are three distinct states in which the VR operates.  Full power to white, Half power to the white, and white wire connected to Green.  The switch between these states is dependent on the battery voltage.  Depending on the battery voltage and charge being received/detected by the VR, the state condition can have a variable time in a specific state, measured in milliseconds.  Milliseconds is not something that standard DMMs deal with transparently.  You have to be more clever with the circuit and the meter in these cases, and is not something easily explained to persons with no fundamental training in electricity.


Have you cleaned the contacts inside the VR yet?
Have you corrected the voltage losses in the battery voltage distribution.
Or, are you hoping the changing one part will fix all the problems?

[NickC]

The most meaningful resistance check of the VR is between the White and Black terminals.
At rest, this should be zero ohms.

The black connection is used for two purposes by the VR.  One, is to determine the battery charge state (voltage level) with reference to the green connection (which ultimately should be the Battery NEG terminal).

Second, the black wire input is the source of power to be distributed to the alternator field coil as the VR decides to distribute.  Battery low state, and the full potential on the Black wire gets connected directly to the White wire.
There are three distinct states in which the VR operates.  Full power to white, Half power to the white, and white wire connected to Green.  The switch between these states is dependent on the battery voltage.  Depending on the battery voltage and charge being received/detected by the VR, the state condition can have a variable time in a specific state, measured in milliseconds.  Milliseconds is not something that standard DMMs deal with transparently.  You have to be more clever with the circuit and the meter in these cases, and is not something easily explained to persons with no fundamental training in electricity.


Have you cleaned the contacts inside the VR yet?
Have you corrected the voltage losses in the battery voltage distribution.
Or, are you hoping the changing one part will fix all the problems?

-Contacts inside the VR have been cleaned and set to spec.
-I re-routed the red/white wire to reflect the wiring diagram, going straight to the battery from the rectifier, instead of being routed through the starter solenoid post, which saw a slight charging improvement, but still below par.
-I have made no mention of replacing any one part in particular to solve all my problems. I know this system is a multi-stage clusterfawk made by the previous owners, so I'd appreciate you don't make assumptions as such...

[scottly]

Nick, I feel your pain. These schematics are hard to read, even with experience reading schematics: they are a virtual rat's nest. And then, to add to the confusion, some PO mucks things up....     

[NickC]

Ok, everyone loves pictures  

This is essentially what my wiring looks like at the moment....


Here is my starter solenoid.....


So, my VR is receiving voltage feeback through the ignition switch, instead of through the starter switch at the moment?

Also, at rest, my VR is @ ~10ohms between the white/black connections........

[Spanner 1]

Correct, the VR gets battery + on the Black wire only with the ign. on....FYI, with the ignition OFF and the key in your pocket !, the following has power to it on your bike... the Rectifier via the red/white wire, the Main fuse via the Red wire and the Ignition switch via the same red wire from the Main fuse....

[NickC]

Correct, the VR gets battery + on the Black wire only with the ign. on....FYI, with the ignition OFF and the key in your pocket !, the following has power to it on your bike... the Rectifier via the red/white wire, the Main fuse via the Red wire and the Ignition switch via the same red wire from the Main fuse....

So, with that in mind, what is the black wire from the VR to the starter swtich for?
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/WiringDiagrams/CB550.jpg

[scottly]

I LOVE pics!! So your pic shows the red wire from the rect tied to the battery post of the solenoid (start mag sw), right? That is how it should be wired (although it doesn't make any diff if the red rect lead is tied directly to the batt +) The red lead continues thru harness to the main fuse, and then to the input of the ign sw. When the key is on, the 12V exists the sw thru the solid blk wire to the VR, as well as the blinker, etc.

10 ohms??? Should be near zero!!!!

[NickC]

That pic is somewhat misleading. The red/white wire on the opposite side of the regulator connection (make sense? regulator-red{}red/white) was in really bad shape, so I replaced it (bypassed it until i get the right connectors)

So as of right now my regulator red lead runs straight to the positive terminal. The other red/white wire runs from the starter switch post to the to the connector where it becomes the red wire, leading into the main fuse.
Make sense? because I just confused myself a little 

As far as the VR, it's strange. One second it tested ~.5ohms (my leads touching come out to .5) and then I take the cover off to check my gaps, and it tests in the 10s

[Spanner 1]

It's for nuthin'.!!.... it's just the way its drawn on that diagram....O.K., lets sort-out 1 or 2 things!, first the Black wire(s) on the bike carry the battery positive (+) voltage to everything that uses power on the bike. The Black wire obtains this voltage when the ign. is 'on' and is connected to the Red wire ( at ign. switch) and back thru' the Main fuse to the battery (+).. The Black wire ' holds' the full load of the bike and will always show the battery voltage at any given moment. So it is also connected to the Voltage Regulator to tell the Reg. the battery voltage at all times.  When the voltage on the Black wire drops below , say , 12v the contact in the Reg. 'clicks' over and sends power on the White wire from the Reg to the FIeld Coil in the Alternator ' switching' the Alternator 'on ' and causing an alternating current to be generated in the Stator coil and passed to the Rectifier to be converted to a direct current and fed to the battery ( via that red/white wire already discussed ). That's how it works, basically....... with the cover off the VReg you should be able to see the reg. clicking-over to 'charge' mode...............or when the headlight suddenly brightens you know the VReg has switched to charge mode...!

[scottly]

Your regulator is probably messed up. Restore all wiring to original configuration. I suspect you did not properly jump your regulator in your previous tests. Restore all wiring, make sure you have a fully charged battery, check campbmics charging thread, and I'll tell you both how to jump a regulator. (although in his case I don't think he needs to)
Scott

[Spanner 1]

The reg. MUST have the black wire connected to 'sense' the load on the battery....no red wire at all !!
Black, White, Green for it to work, nothing else  !!  Please change...........white/red wire is O.K. like it is........... again red wire does not go to the Reg.

[scottly]

The reg. MUST have the black wire connected to 'sense' the load on the battery....no red wire at all !!
Black, White, Green for it to work, nothing else  !!  Please change...........white/red wire is O.K. like it is........... again red wire does not go to the Reg.

Spanner, I'm guessing he meant to say solenoid, rather than reg...

[NickC]

The reg. MUST have the black wire connected to 'sense' the load on the battery....no red wire at all !!
Black, White, Green for it to work, nothing else  !!  Please change...........white/red wire is O.K. like it is........... again red wire does not go to the Reg.

Spanner, I'm guessing he meant to say solenoid, rather than reg...

Yes, thank you for catching that 

As far as attempting to restore it to the regular config, thats what I'm hoping to do, that is why I was trying to determine the need for the black wire from the vreg to the solenoid

[Spanner 1]

Black wire goes to the Reg. and black wire also goes to to the Solenoid, that's correct. So , yes , black wire can go to the Reg. and continue to the Solenoid or run separately , it's the same.....both items receive battery (+) voltage from the black wire with ignition ' on '.

[scottly]

The black lead at the sol provides 12V to the coil. When the start sw is pushed, it grounds the other end of the coil, and energizes the sol, making the starter turn.

Your problem is flaky points in the reg, and even if you can clean them up, it won't necessarily mean that the reg will provide the proper voltage. Maybe, but not for sure...

And I should add a 1+ to everything spanner has said.