Topic: What's wrong with my bike? (Video)

[BeSeeingYou]

Dude...you guys are brilliant.

I actually used twostroke's method this morning (wrote down the current voltage in the battery, pulled 2 fuses out).

I'll use Frostyboy's method tonight.

Just out of curiousity though, I left the battery sitting on my workbench last night, and it was at 10.75V before I went to sleep and at 10.69V this morning. I'm assuming a minimal loss like this is typical in these batteries?

Thanks!

I would agree with TT on this.  This is the typical voltage you will get when one cell is bad.  It may even read proper voltage for a very short time after you disconnect the charger but it will drop steadily over an hour or two. 

[BigBoi]

Here's the update guys:

I'm pretty sure it's my 2 in 1 rectifier/regulator unit from Partsnmore. I was testing each of the wires with just the "Hot" plugged into the rectifier when I noticed that the "Green" wire on the regulator section is pushing 10+V! That's supposed to be a ground.

As a matter of fact, when nothing is plugged in except the hot wire, they're all pushing 10+ including all the yellows.

I'm pretty sure this unit is defective.

[scottly]

If the green wire isn't connected to ground, it isn't grounded!!! Your test is bad! Have you properly charged your battery yet, with a real charger, rather than a "battery tender", which, while may charge your battery, may take a day or two to do it, depending on what unit you have.

[TwoTired]

I'm pretty sure it's my 2 in 1 rectifier/regulator unit from Partsnmore. .....

I'm pretty sure this unit is defective.

Well, it probably is now.  Lots of power handling devices go bonkers when they've lost their ground reference.  This is used to properly bias devices inside the unit.  Without the ground these biases can be reversed, and without some kind of current limiter... poof.

[scottly]

I'm pretty sure it's my 2 in 1 rectifier/regulator unit from Partsnmore. .....

I'm pretty sure this unit is defective.

Well, it probably is now.  Lots of power handling devices go bonkers when they've lost their ground reference.  This is used to properly bias devices inside the unit.  Without the ground these biases can be reversed, and without some kind of current limiter... poof.

Wrong; without the ground, no current can flow, and, thus, no poof.

[TwoTired]

I'm pretty sure it's my 2 in 1 rectifier/regulator unit from Partsnmore. .....

I'm pretty sure this unit is defective.

Well, it probably is now.  Lots of power handling devices go bonkers when they've lost their ground reference.  This is used to properly bias devices inside the unit.  Without the ground these biases can be reversed, and without some kind of current limiter... poof.

Wrong; without the ground, no current can flow, and, thus, no poof.

OK mister smarty pants how did he get any reading without some sort of ground reference?  The meter completes a circuit.  And who said some of the other wires beside ground weren't still connected?

Seems to be major flail going on here.  But, if you are all comfortable with that.  I'll be happy to just watch the flail continue.  Muddle on...

[scottly]

OK, this is getting old, and it's way past my bedtime. As you said, the meter completes the circuit. The meter has a very high impedance, and will not pass any currents large enough to do any damage. The poster also mentioned that the only wire connected when he took the measurements was the positive lead.

[BigBoi]

Alright, maybe I can explain further.

Here's exactly what I did.

I first charged the battery to a solid voltage. 11.5V. For my test, it should be sufficient. I wasn't running the bike at all.

The voltage is stable in the battery when it's out of the bike. When I put it in, it drops. (As discussed)

So I started unplugging things. I noticed that when I unplug the rectifier's block connector and the three regulator wires, my voltage doesn't drop any more.

I tried to dig deeper into the regulator/rectifier issue at this point. When I connect only (everything else unplugged) the "hot - red" wire from my harness to the rectifier block connector, I notice that the "green" ground wire coming out of the regulator is showing high voltage. Also, the wire in my wiring harness block connector going to the rectifier (which has the hot wire hooked to the rectifier at this point) is showing 0.04V on the ground wire (green). Shouldn't both of these be ground, therefore no voltage at all? All the other wires coming out of the rectifier/regulator are showing voltage as well.

Please note that all this time, the rectifier/regulator unit was bolted to my battery box. However, I then unbolted it and got the same results. Also, when I was checking voltage, I was always connecting my black ground lead to the battery's negative terminal.

I apologize if I was unclear...still new to this and trying to sort it out.

[scottly]

The green wire is where the ground goes into the rectifier: if it is not connected, it is not grounded. Put it back together, and run Frosty's test.

edit: I recommend you use an analog meter for this test

[BigBoi]

Partsnmore has been nice enough to send me another one.

Does anyone have a link to how to bench test a univeral 2 in 1 rectifier/regulator unit?

[BigBoi]

Try this, when you pull each fuse, one at a time, connect a test light across the fuse block terminals. If the light glows, there's a drain on that circuit.
If nothing is evident there, put all the fuses back in, disconnect the negative lead from the battery & put the light between the lead & the battery. If that lights up, the only circuit that could be active is a failed rectifier like TT explained, cos it's unfused.
Edit:
If nothing shows up anywhere, I think it's simply time for a new battery.

I'm going to run this test tonight. One question though:

"If nothing is evident there, put all the fuses back in, disconnect the negative lead from the battery & put the light between the lead & the battery."

Although obvious, I just want to make sure we're talking the battery positive and the wire lead which is hooked to the frame.

Thanks,

[TwoTired]

I'm not as familiar with your reg/rect as others here seem to think they are.

Can you do a resistance measurement between each of the wires in the connector and the mounting positions of the unit to see if there is any sort of electrical connection between casework and the wire terminals?

You can check the rectifier portion of your combined unit using a meter with a diode function (or an analog meter).  It takes twelve tests.
each of the three yellows to red, reverse meter probe polarity and test again
Then each of the yellows to green, reverse meter probe polarity and test again
What you should find is that you ought to have low resistance with the probes connected in one polarity only.
So, six test will show low ohms, and six test should measure very, very high ohms reading.

If one or more of the diodes you tested shows continuity (low resistance) in both directions, you found the source of your battery draining issues.

However, I still don't think your present battery is a good test device.  Battery cells can develop a surcharge that quickly bleeds off with time or any sort of drain.  So do weak cells in the battery that can hold voltage, but not under any sort of load.  If you are basing your bike drain on a falling battery voltage, it could still be  the battery at fault.
Even good reversed biased diodes in the rectifier present some load on a voltage source, however small.  But, it will still deplete a sick battery, if it is sick in the "right" way.

Anyway, to test the voltage regulator function of the reg/rect you need a good battery, or be very smart about what is at the battery's connections in the circuit.

[scottly]

Excellent description of how to test a rectifier with an ohmmeter, TT. You should put it in the tricks and tips section, if you haven't done so already.

Peace
Scott

[BigBoi]

I'm not as familiar with your reg/rect as others here seem to think they are.

Can you do a resistance measurement between each of the wires in the connector and the mounting positions of the unit to see if there is any sort of electrical connection between casework and the wire terminals?

You can check the rectifier portion of your combined unit using a meter with a diode function (or an analog meter).  It takes twelve tests.
each of the three yellows to red, reverse meter probe polarity and test again
Then each of the yellows to green, reverse meter probe polarity and test again
What you should find is that you ought to have low resistance with the probes connected in one polarity only.
So, six test will show low ohms, and six test should measure very, very high ohms reading.

If one or more of the diodes you tested shows continuity (low resistance) in both directions, you found the source of your battery draining issues.

However, I still don't think your present battery is a good test device.  Battery cells can develop a surcharge that quickly bleeds off with time or any sort of drain.  So do weak cells in the battery that can hold voltage, but not under any sort of load.  If you are basing your bike drain on a falling battery voltage, it could still be  the battery at fault.
Even good reversed biased diodes in the rectifier present some load on a voltage source, however small.  But, it will still deplete a sick battery, if it is sick in the "right" way.

Anyway, to test the voltage regulator function of the reg/rect you need a good battery, or be very smart about what is at the battery's connections in the circuit.

I'm going to run this test tonight. I ran the other tests and it seems to point to the rectifier.

I'm really at a loss as to how this device actually works. I noticed that when I disconnect the large block connector going to my alternator, my power loss stops as well. So I tried connecting the "HOT" going into this harness only (white) to see what if I had anything being jumped anywhere. Well when the white is connected, I noticed the green showing the same voltage as the white. However, I don't know how this works but according to the diagram (See attached), am I supposed to see voltage on the green? Or is it possible that I have a short somewhere inside my case where the alternator block wiring runs?

I'm really lost here guys. :/

I'll record my findings about the rectifier tonight.

[8 Track]

Ya got me, I'd have to google it.  I kind of know, but not really.  Now it's your turn to make us smarter!

[scottly]

However, I still don't think your present battery is a good test device.  Battery cells can develop a surcharge that quickly bleeds off with time or any sort of drain.  So do weak cells in the battery that can hold voltage, but not under any sort of load.  If you are basing your bike drain on a falling battery voltage, it could still be  the battery at fault.
Even good reversed biased diodes in the rectifier present some load on a voltage source, however small.  But, it will still deplete a sick battery, if it is sick in the "right" way.

Anyway, to test the voltage regulator function of the reg/rect you need a good battery, or be very smart about what is at the battery's connections in the circuit.


I agree with TT 100% on this, and please quit trying to invent your own tests!

[TwoTired]

Let's find out if you bike's wire harness is ok.

Disconnect the battery.

Do a continuity check (measure resistance), between the disconnected green at your alternator and the battery NEG terminal.
Repeat the test with the disconnected green at the reg/rect and the battery NEG terminal.

Is a basic theory of operation of any interest?

[scottly]

TT, I believe you hit the nail on the head about the battery. I'm thinking, most, if not all of the issues are related to a battery that's as dead as a doornail. Lets get the battery charged before anything else...  

Edit: just in case I was misunderstood, the line about inventing tests was NOT directed to you, TT

[BigBoi]

Let's find out if you bike's wire harness is ok.

Disconnect the battery.

Do a continuity check (measure resistance), between the disconnected green at your alternator and the battery NEG terminal.
Repeat the test with the disconnected green at the reg/rect and the battery NEG terminal.

Is a basic theory of operation of any interest?

Ran a couple of recommended tests this time and here's what I did and what I found:

For the rectifier test, I took it out of the bike completely, put it on the work bench, just me, the device and my multimeter.

I set my multimeter to Ohms 20M.

Ground in the rectifier against the ground (black) in the multimeter:

Yellow 1: 3.82
Yellow 2: 3.48
Yellow 3: 3.59

Ground in the rectifier against positive lead in the multimeter:

Yellow 1: No reading (Infinite?)
Yellow 2: No reading (Infinite?)
Yellow 3: No reading (Infinite?)

Red in the rectifier against negative lead in multimeter:

Yellow 1: 3.85
Yellow 2: 3.47
Yellow 3: 3.62

Red in the rectifier against positive lead in multimeter:

Yellow 1: No reading (Infinite?)
Yellow 2: No reading (Infinite?)
Yellow 3: No reading (Infinite?)

Is this good?
 
I also ran your other test for resistance in the wiring harness. I unhooked both battery terminals. I placed the negative lead against the battery negative. I then place the red lead against the green wire at the alternator connector block (the one coming out of the case). It read nothing (infinite?). I switch the leads around, still nothing.

I did the same with the disconnected greens at the rectifier/regulator, same results...nothing on the meter.

[BigBoi]

However, I still don't think your present battery is a good test device.  Battery cells can develop a surcharge that quickly bleeds off with time or any sort of drain.  So do weak cells in the battery that can hold voltage, but not under any sort of load.  If you are basing your bike drain on a falling battery voltage, it could still be  the battery at fault.
Even good reversed biased diodes in the rectifier present some load on a voltage source, however small.  But, it will still deplete a sick battery, if it is sick in the "right" way.

Anyway, to test the voltage regulator function of the reg/rect you need a good battery, or be very smart about what is at the battery's connections in the circuit.

I absolutely agree with you. I've got plans to switch this battery with a new one on Saturday morning (spoke to the company over the phone). I really thought it was my charging system due to the fact that it was showing 14.5 volts at my battery terminals when the bike was just at idle (1100). The reality is, I don't know enough about how it all works together (rectifier, alternator, regulator).

I want to thank you guys for sticking with me while I sort this out though.

[TwoTired]

I'd be happy with those rectifier measurements.

I'd be very unhappy with the ground wire measurements, as what you have reported is a broken connection between the charging components and the battery connections.  Can't expect that to work well.  You did understand that we were checking the bikes wire harness for integrity, right?  You do know that zero ohms is no resistance and infinity is no resistance, right.  What you want in a wire connection or conductive pathway is zero ohms (which is NOT "nothing".)

Somewhere on your bike, the green harness wires connect to the frame.  Is there paint insulating that connection?
The battery NEG cable also connects to the bike frame/motor somewhere.  Is there paint insulation there?

Anyway, you will need a reliable distributed ground or battery NEG terminal return, for any of your electrical components to behave as intended.

Seek out broken electrical pathways!

[BigBoi]

I'd be happy with those rectifier measurements.

I'd be very unhappy with the ground wire measurements, as what you have reported is a broken connection between the charging components and the battery connections.  Can't expect that to work well.  You did understand that we were checking the bikes wire harness for integrity, right?  You do know that zero ohms is no resistance and infinity is no resistance, right.  What you want in a wire connection or conductive pathway is zero ohms (which is NOT "nothing".)

Somewhere on your bike, the green harness wires connect to the frame.  Is there paint insulating that connection?
The battery NEG cable also connects to the bike frame/motor somewhere.  Is there paint insulation there?

Anyway, you will need a reliable distributed ground or battery NEG terminal return, for any of your electrical components to behave as intended.

Seek out broken electrical pathways!

I'm confused at this point. I went back downstairs and checked for continuity across the following:

Negative wire lead (attached to the frame but disconnected from the battery) -> Green at rectifier connector block on harness = 0.00

Negative wire lead -> Green at alternator connector block on harness = 0.00
Negative wire lead -> Green at alternator connector block in engine = Infinite
Negative wire lead -> Green connected to frame (out of harness) = 0.00
Negative wire lead -> Green at regulator (out of harness)  = 0.00

Doesn't this mean the harness itself is ok? Is the alternator green supposed to be grounded inside the case?

What I had given you above was my measurements from the battery negative (unhooked from my frame and from the positive in harness) -> to all the green connectors.

I thought that's what you had asked for?

[BigBoi]

I'm pretty sure according to the wiring diagram and the microfiche that the green coming out of the alternator wiring is supposed to be grounded. (See pictures)

I replaced the gaskets for the alternator and the transmission cover a while back and the connection may have come loose.

I'm obviously not knowledgeable in electronics, but it seems that it should be.

[TwoTired]

Doesn't this mean the harness itself is ok?

Yes, looks like it is.  (See what correct data can do for you?)

Is the alternator green supposed to be grounded inside the case?

It is not necessary to ground inside the case.  The field coil is driven by the white a green wires.  This is what makes an electromagnetic field in which the rotor can turn within.  The rotor changes the magnetic poles and the lines of flux crossing the stator coils then induce current flow in the stator windings.  The AC voltage is then rectified to DC power and fed to the battery.

What I had given you above was my measurements from the battery negative (unhooked from my frame and from the positive in harness) -> to all the green connectors.
I thought that's what you had asked for?

No.  I had you disconnect the battery to take it out of the electrical picture.  Frankly, I don't trust your battery.

While you have the alternator disconnected, measure the resistance of the field coil. (White and Green wires going into it.)  I believe the 750's are in the neighbor hood of 6.8 ohms. (Did you do this already?  I may have missed the post.)
Then measure between the alternator yellows.  It should be very near zero, like 0.2 ohm-ish, not including meter lead resistance.
Then measure between the yellow and engine case.  (should be infinity)

If all measurements meet expectations, that only leaves the battery itself and the Vreg.  I'd rather not do more tests on the vreg without a good battery, as the vreg makes decisions on what to do based on battery state.

Cheers,

[Frostyboy]

I'm going to run this test tonight. One question though:

"If nothing is evident there, put all the fuses back in, disconnect the negative lead from the battery & put the light between the lead & the battery."

Although obvious, I just want to make sure we're talking the battery positive and the wire lead which is hooked to the frame.

Thanks,

No no no...... Place the test light in series between the negative post of the battery & the negative lead. All I'm trying to do here is an elcheapo ampmeter,
If your meter has an amps function, by all means use it instead of the test light. (it would have to be a rather significant current draw to light the bulb anyway).
Add me to the list that reckons it will be all good if you put a healthy battery in it. Those charging figures you posted suggest to me that you won't find fault with the charging system at all. [Frosty crosses fingers at this point]