Author Topic: Calm down on the elitism maybe?  (Read 4922 times)

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Offline Don R

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2010, 12:34:43 PM »
If someone wants to cut up a 69 K0 it's OK with me, just let me have a shot at all the parts left over ;D

Humor aside, I understand what you are saying, there was a time when I was a sohc snob and didn't appreciate a lot of other nice bikes. My former apprentice bought a new Harley, cut welded and primered it until it looked 50's. I still wouldn't do that myself but I respect him having guts enough to do what he thinks is cool.
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Offline SOHC Digger

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2010, 01:04:07 PM »
I too am a FNG to this forum, but already I have grown to love it because of all the collective knowledge.  I have a deep appreciation for those individuals who delight in restorations.  It is much easier to just do it your way vs. finding out how it originally was and exhausting your resources to make it that way.  Customizing is easy, restoring is not. 

That being said, I am a HUGE fan of the digger-style bikes that came out of the Frisco area before I was born.  That's what I go for.  However, I do realize that a K7 or F3 make a better powerplant/donor than a K0 if not for cost, then for the subtle technological improvements.  I know this through chance and education.  What we (as a collective) need to do is educate your fellow rider (custom or resto) about the value and meaning of each bike.  I am sure that if Johnny Hot Rod wanted to chop a basket K0 and Mr. Resto educated him about the bike and offered to trade a nice K8 for the K0, both members would learn and prosper.

I am an educated Johnny Hot Rod.  I have chopped a '77 K, but first sold everything worth a buck that I wasn't committed to and I am getting ready to do it again on a '78 F.  I have traded '74 carbs for '78 carbs.  I have sold stock controls and gotten enough money to go buy brand new custom aftermarket controls.

My point after rambling is that both sides can symbiotically coexist.  The newbie customizers (I group myself here)  can be educated on what are the more desirable models and parts that can be sold for a buck and which ones are less desirable, although sometimes more technological or reliable.  Those newbies can sell those parts to the resto guys, turn a buck, and go buy an aftermarket part without cutting stock metal.  That being said, who wants to buy a stock '78 F frame so I can buy a hardtail from CycleX?

Offline Grnrngr

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2010, 01:30:36 PM »
I was looking over Craigslist the other day and there was a plea from a guy with an older Yamaha who needed some help, but "unless your an elite vintage Honda owner, no one around here will even talk to you". I like motorcycles. All of them. I may choose not to been seen on some of them, but if a guy's out there riding, we already have a shared commonality. Also guess I feel the need to point out that choppers, bobbers, and cafe's have been around since the late 40s, so it's not a new phenomenon, and a great many bikes were cut up or modified right off the showroom floor. See if you can find an early 70s copy of Big Bike magazine and see how many Honda choppers are in there..The Honda 4 was like a breath of fresh air to those guys, an amazing, good looking engine that would run away from Harleys. One of the first things I did with my brand new 72 Suz GT380 when I was 17, was to take off the stock bars and replace them with inverted "Z" bars (for those who don't know, think "square clubmans") wasn't trying to be a cafe racer, just liked the way it looked. And fwiw, it doesn't bother me to lean forward with weight on my wrists for hours at a time. Also had a twisted chrome sissy bar on it, guess that's looked on as weird if you have low bars, but it worked for me, and when I traded it for a catamaran, the guy that got it kept it like it was, and so did the guy he sold it to. I would have to say at this time, if you are lucky enough to find a stocker, but have a taste for mods, it would probably be more to your financial advantage to sell it to someone who likes "originals" and find one that's a bit more of a project. Not because I think stockers are "better" or should be protected, but simply because "original" is just another niche market, and people are willing to pay more for those niche items, and could make your project more affordable. But as to the original complaint, I try to abide by what my mom taught me so long ago, "if you can't say something nice, it's usually best to keep yer mouth shut". It's not uncommon for some people to put others down simply to make themselves feel better.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2010, 01:45:15 PM »
Discount for rust or extra charge for the modification? ;D

Heh, discounted for rust.  Guess that means is was a ruined pre-ruined bike :D  Over the years I've been restoring it to it's previous pre-ruined state, and ruining it some more in the process :D

To my credit I did restore the previously-cut-off centerstand tabs and seat hinges :D

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Offline Magpie

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2010, 02:00:32 PM »
mystic_1,
We must have the same bike, mine came in a state of ruinness too. Eliteism here is very small I think. It grieves me to see a good early bike not restored but it's the owners choice to do as he pleases and I respect that. I'm sure some of the owners here will question my desire to restore a bike to what it was before some po got a hold of it.
If you want elitism go the a Goldwing forum. You'll get flamed on any number of topics from wrong oil, tires, windshield, belly pan etc.
It's mild here.
Cliff.

Offline mystic_1

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2010, 02:39:35 PM »
mystic_1,
We must have the same bike, mine came in a state of ruinness too. Eliteism here is very small I think. It grieves me to see a good early bike not restored but it's the owners choice to do as he pleases and I respect that. I'm sure some of the owners here will question my desire to restore a bike to what it was before some po got a hold of it.
If you want elitism go the a Goldwing forum. You'll get flamed on any number of topics from wrong oil, tires, windshield, belly pan etc.
It's mild here.
Cliff.

Was yours a chopper when you got it?

That would be pretty eerie, btw, since my name is Cliff also :D

mystic_1
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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2010, 03:07:11 PM »
i guess this is where threads start going to by the end of winter. people getting all kinds of crazy being cooped up with no motorcycle riding
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline Magpie

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2010, 05:33:50 PM »
It's called PMS - Parked Motorcycle Syndrome - leaving too much time for idle hands.
Mystic1/Cliff, not a chopper but hacked. In a mighty crash at one time and many original parts gone.
Cliff too.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2010, 06:39:51 PM »
i guess this is where threads start going to by the end of winter. people getting all kinds of crazy being cooped up with no motorcycle riding

Wll Fuzzy, there's winter, and there's winter. Here in Oz, in winter we wear jackets on our bike rides, and occasionally it rains.  ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

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Offline bucky katt

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2010, 10:14:49 PM »
i guess this is where threads start going to by the end of winter. people getting all kinds of crazy being cooped up with no motorcycle riding

Wll Fuzzy, there's winter, and there's winter. Here in Oz, in winter we wear jackets on our bike rides, and occasionally it rains.  ;D

just a little ways north it snowed yesterday, snowed like hell in Atlanta yesterday too. i remember when i lived in a place that i could go surfing on Christmas day.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 01:43:38 AM »
I remember when i lived in a place that i could go surfing on Christmas day.

I didn't know your were an Aussie mate, no wonder I like you! ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2010, 01:45:51 AM »
I remember when i lived in a place that i could go surfing on Christmas day.

I didn't know your were an Aussie mate, no wonder I like you! ;D

i was living in west palm beach florida, a drive up the coast found me enough surf to ride, it wasnt exactly toasty warm but with a wetsuit i was able to have a few hours of fun before hypothermia set in  :D
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2010, 02:25:16 AM »
the definition of elitism, makes sense to me. as vintage Honda owners we ALL are elitists.



the cut and pasted definition from Wikipedia :

Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight or those who view their own views as so; whose views and/or actions are most likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2010, 02:45:58 AM »
There is a serious point here when you look at the young vs. old attitudes. This isn't necessarily due to some being around in the 70s and "living" them compared those too young, it's a generation thing. As you look at each decade forward let's say from the 2nd world war, there is a set of values that is instilled in the generation growing up in that decade. This is formed by world events, local events, parents values and loads of other things. It's perfectly reasonable that the older crew here "generally" don't like to carve up good stockers to make a cafe racer, they formed their values in times of recovery after a war and their parents values of making ends meet and respect for property are instilled in them. Later generations don't have this major influence on their formative years so are less "respectful" in the eyes of the older generation. There are even global influences on generations called "memes" which may influence generations as a collective on top of this.

Also, from a psychology point of view, each individual person records life in their individual way, no two recollections of an event are the same because you change your memory of the event based on your values, beliefs, mental filters and a million and one other factors. Two people can look at the same bike and their recollections of it be totally opposed. There is a term used to summarise this - "the map is not the territory", meaning two people can look at the same place but draw up two different maps. In their world the map is correct and their view of the territory is just that, their view.

So what am I getting at here, well there are good reasons why the older guys should have different views to the younger guys and that's OK. There are also good reasons why one person can look at a cafe racer chopped up from a K0 and see beauty - that's his map, whereas someone else sees desecration of a rare and classic stock motorcycle and that's their map in their world. Both views are OK BECAUSE it's in the context of the individual's personal world. Neither is right, neither is wrong on the grand scale, both are true to their own values and beliefs and the maps of their world.

We're always going to differ on our views of bikes because of this. Personally I class myself as a youngster still (don't laugh!)  and I seriously dislike most chopped bikes, most bobbed bikes and a lot of the cafe racers but I have to say that's a view that I have developed. Fifteen years ago, I would go to sleep on the grass bank at the TT when the classic parade was on. I slept through Honda sixes, Guzzi V8s and other exotica. Now, I make a beeline for them, appreciating the beauty and skill of the engineering that went into them. I also appreciate that for example if you look at my own CR750, I love it to pieces and think it's a thing of drop dead beauty but I respect that others absolutely detest the paint job and that's OK - it's their world not mine.

We're all differnet, we will always be all different, what is sometimes missing in these posts is understanding and respect for the other person's map of the world. It's not wrong, it's just different to yours. For those that are on the sharp end of posts telling them their bike is a POS, that's OK too - it's the poster's map of the world that it doesn't fit in not yours and it's OK for him to feel those things becasue they're his issues, not yours, however badly they are expressed.

So, there's my $0.02, vive la difference I say, now let's see some more race bikes and fewer POS cafe chobobbers  ;D
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2010, 03:56:20 AM »
I remember when i lived in a place that i could go surfing on Christmas day.

I didn't know your were an Aussie mate, no wonder I like you! ;D

i was living in west palm beach florida, a drive up the coast found me enough surf to ride, it wasnt exactly toasty warm but with a wetsuit i was able to have a few hours of fun before hypothermia set in  :D

Now that's elitism Jeff, I can just see you in your wet suit and kilt.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Sam. ;)
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 06:18:39 AM »
No, I think that would be scary! :D

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 08:31:27 AM »
yeah Sam, that is a pretty disturbing mental picture, even for me  :D actually i AM an elitist, i AM a member of a select group, just ask the voices in my head  :D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 08:47:48 AM by bucky katt »
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2010, 11:03:39 AM »
For me....

If you aren't riding a Honda you can F-off.

And since I currently am going to ride a Yamaha I suppose I can F-off as well.

And all of you can F-off again since you dont ride a Yamaha.

And you can all F-off since I also ride a Suzuki, Harley, and Kawasaki.

Anyone else is just useless.

Unless you ride a Ducati, Moto Guzzi, KTM, Indian, Norton, Triumph, Royal Enfield, Matchless, etc....

Then you are ok in my book.


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Offline lordmoonpie

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2010, 12:57:17 PM »
Gee thanks Havoc - I'm OK on my shiny red Ducati then ;-)

At least that one runs LOL!
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Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #44 on: March 03, 2010, 01:05:51 PM »
Gee thanks Havoc - I'm OK on my shiny red Ducati then ;-)

At least that one runs LOL!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Bluegreen

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #45 on: March 03, 2010, 06:23:36 PM »
Wow this really took off. I think I should have been more carefull about the qoutes I grabbed. I guess in the details of the long qoute in paticular, the spirt of what I was getting at got lost and that's my fault. It wasn't so much elitism concerning modded vs stock or even age vs age. More an overall feeling is all. A tone I get occasionaly.

Anyway, it seemed to stimulate some good conversation. Cool.


Offline KeithTurk

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2010, 07:49:35 PM »
Once you paid for it it's yours.... you are the steward for a period of time and a piece of History....how you preserve or enjoy it is YOUR gig...not mine.....

If you do good work...  I'm totally into it... lets see your junk...  Stock, Cafe, Bobber...

I consider my self a bit of a fabricator and consider the word and my work art....    I've not yet hacked one of my 550's but You can expect it in the future....  I've also riden my junk and would challange you to do the same... ( 550 to Mexico )

Life is Good.... I love bikes...

K

Offline Kframe

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2010, 09:34:09 PM »
To each his own, and to each to do with his own what he/she will.
Of course there are exceptions, but there's nothing wrong with someone modifying anything they own to better suit their preference or use.

What does bug me though is when a fairly good shaped retro rider goes through an extensive/expensive restoration to stock and then they become garage and show queens - hardly ridden much if at all anymore.  It makes me a bit sad looking at a perfectly roadworthy vehicle of any type in a museum, fully knowing that they will never again rumble to life and head down the road or runway.   
Like I said, exceptions abound, and of course a few examples of nearly everything should be preserved in suspended animation for present and future generations to view and appreciate.  But I've got no intention of having a museum of bikes, they will be rode hard, maintained well, and live out the kind of lives motorcycles and motorcyclists ought to.  If at the end they've ended up crumbling but had a great run, then that's the way it was intended. 

More to the topic though, it was pretty much taken as bad form for a new member to post a recent quote that is readily attributed to a very long-time member, and to use that post as an example of some perceived problem in the forum. 
No community (ugh I hate that word) is perfect, but in all groups, packs, herds, flocks, murders, and prides, it is not tolerated when a new member starts sparring with an established member.  Ranks close, and the new guy gets dealt with.  Not that the new guy didn't have a point, just wrong words at the wrong time. 

Don't bail though, there's good folks here. 
Dang, when IS spring gonna get here?!?!    :P
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2010, 07:44:28 AM »
Wow this really took off. I think I should have been more carefull about the qoutes I grabbed. I guess in the details of the long qoute in paticular, the spirt of what I was getting at got lost and that's my fault. It wasn't so much elitism concerning modded vs stock or even age vs age. More an overall feeling is all. A tone I get occasionaly.

Anyway, it seemed to stimulate some good conversation. Cool.


Sometimes the tone come from the fact that a lot of questions have been asked 100 times. Case in point a lost key. OK I was in the same position myself, same bike same year. I advised the guy to simply remove the lock cylinder and get the code. If he needed to work under the seat, just pull the cotter pins and tap out the hinge pins and you can remove the seat. Ten posts down with crap like jamming screwdrivers into the cylinders and other weird crap, I finally came back and just told the guy what I told him the first time more forcefully. It was for his benefit so he did not mess up his bike for no good reason.

I find two things about some new people here. Some are amazing at coming up with novel solutions and appear to be skilled individuals. Some are new to bikes and wrenching and need mentoring and support and they get that. Some are just wise asses that don't know, and don;t care, they just want to do something with no apparent logic behind it.

 

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Offline my78k

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Re: Calm down on the elitism maybe?
« Reply #49 on: March 06, 2010, 09:15:03 PM »
Yeah I saw your comments on that thread Bobby....not sure why anyone would want to destroy a perfectly good seat lock

You gave him a fine solution (which worked on my k8 as well) and he either didn't see it or didnt want to hear it...