Author Topic: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!  (Read 6003 times)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2010, 03:15:23 PM »
It is called jury nullification.

I was once instructed by a judge that I should ignore whether or not I felt the law made sense, and that it was my job, as a juror, to decide whether the defendant committed the crime.  Hogwash!

It was a gun possession case, and no other crime had been committed.  Needless to say, there was an acquittal that day.

I prefer to reserve my rights as a juror, rather than tell the judge and jury my feelings on the validity of the law, thus ensuring my dismissal.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2010, 04:47:45 PM »

        Okay, I just heard on the 5 O'clock news that a decsion has not been made as whether to charge the home owner or not. It actually happened in Sequoyah (spelling?) County in Oklahoma. The man had been robbed and he fired at them as they were leaving. No mention was made of them returning fire. Nothing was said about WHAT they made off with.

        Whether he was right or wrong, the woman's actions contributed to the child's death. So Sad for the baby, but I have to wonder what kind of life that baby was in for? Might have followed in the same footsteps and, then again, maybe not. People are getting tired of this crap though. You work to be able to provide for your family AND have a few things and THEN some underserving so and so tries to take those things for his own! If all of the efforts to take things, were put to good use, they could Earn things for themselves!

        Some years ago, while I worked for Civil Service, I went to a familiarization school in Warren Mich, for the NEW Military Freightliner semitractors that the Army was getting. One of the first things were were told, during the introduction part of the course, was that IF someone tried to "Take Your Car, Let Them Have It! Don't Try To Fight Them!" Now, I guess I would have done just that, but I sure would NOT be happy about it! I didn't then or now have a Concealed Weapons Permit, but it would be tempting! I do know that there are times that you will be better off just to back off and let things happen, but it sure would be hard. Of course, if your family is there, you have to be especially careful.
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Offline cb650

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #27 on: March 08, 2010, 05:41:22 PM »
Yes sad about the baby.   BUT the mother chose this action.  I'm sure it wasnt the first.  Follow the names and they wont stop even with this loss.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2010, 06:23:08 AM by cb650 »
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2010, 06:45:27 PM »
Yes sad about the baby.   BUT the mother chose this action.  I'm sure it want the first.  Follow the names and they wont stop even with this loss. 

           Yeah, SOME folks don't even KNOW what a "wakeup call" is! ::)
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2010, 09:24:36 PM »
And not to worry!  The mother will most certainly sue the shooter in civil court for quite some time to come as well.  Some sheister lawyer will pick up this case on a contingency, and try to take the man's home away from him.

There might even be a jury of his "peers" who decide that his homeowner's insurance company can afford to pay the sneaking theif murderer mother some "compensation" because "society made her do it" or some other nonsense.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2010, 10:08:13 PM »
And not to worry!  The mother will most certainly sue the shooter in civil court for quite some time to come as well.  Some sheister lawyer will pick up this case on a contingency, and try to take the man's home away from him.

There might even be a jury of his "peers" who decide that his homeowner's insurance company can afford to pay the sneaking theif murderer mother some "compensation" because "society made her do it" or some other nonsense.

             Probably! :-\
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2010, 06:07:00 AM »


    Next time, I'll try to have ALL of thinfo before posting it, I now have heard that the homeowner was also "beaten" when he was robbed!

   They'll probably decide that IF he hadn't been there, he wouldn't have been beaten. ::)  AND, to date, No Charges have been filed! Seems to me that, the longer it takes to come to a decision on whether or not to file charges on him, the better his chances are, that they won't. ???
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Offline Blasbo

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #32 on: March 09, 2010, 09:31:37 AM »
Reminds me of what they were talking about on the radio this morning. Apparently two armed men robbed a store and escaped in a vehicle. The store owner got in his vehicle and pursued them to get their tag number. They fired on him and he fired back killing one of them.
The consensus was that the store owner was justified. If it was me, I don't think I would have chased them. It's only stuff, but they fired on him and I think he was justified in firing back.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #33 on: March 09, 2010, 09:37:03 AM »
Reminds me of what they were talking about on the radio this morning. Apparently two armed men robbed a store and escaped in a vehicle. The store owner got in his vehicle and pursued them to get their tag number. They fired on him and he fired back killing one of them.
The consensus was that the store owner was justified. If it was me, I don't think I would have chased them. It's only stuff, but they fired on him and I think he was justified in firing back.
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Offline bill440cars

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2010, 06:10:50 AM »

       Okay, more info:     (besides what the 2 boys were charged with)

           It seems that the homeowner will be charged with 2nd degree manslaughter and 2 counts of shooting with the intent to kill!

           The 2 boys had robbed and beaten the homeowner AND they had taken GUNS as well.

            The woman who Drove them to the place AND had her baby girl in the car (who was killed), will NOT be charged with ANYTHING!

            So now, just have to wait and see how this turns out.

            I sure don't understand how the woman gets off without anything. She DID lose her baby, but IF she hadn't been there, it the little girl would still be alive. Makes ME wonder IF she even realizes that it was the fact that SHE took her baby there and caused her to be put in harm's way?

                                     That's it for now,  Bill  


   Also, one of the 2 boys, is up on a murder charge as well. This just gets deeper and deeper all the time. ::)
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 08:26:17 AM by bill440cars »
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Offline Operator

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2010, 08:36:00 AM »
Two tired,

I will offer this as my response

I understand that US citizens have a right to bear arms, however the people around them also have a right to personal safety. If a persons lack of knowledge, be it safety or legal, of the tool (yes, as a member of the military I view weapons as tools) puts an innocent in danger, then the responsibility falls on the individual operating that tool.

To use the example of a driver's license is ridiculous as you are also allowed mistakes on a firearms exam. There are allowances in place. That said if you misuse your driver's license ie. drunk driving, you lose that privelege. So maybe driving should be a "right" and there is no need for anyone to become educated on the subject and have to take tests or driving exams because if I fail and cannot drive, my right to travel freely has now been limited by a government institution?

As for the references to ammonia and gasoline, if you are purchasing these items for the uses you refer to, then there is already criminal intent (a crime in itself) and consideration of the law has already been thrown to the wind. If a person however, within their rights, purchases a gun as a method of home or personal protection, it is the responsibility of that individual to educate themselves on the proper use and potential ramifications of misusing that weapon. If they do not, then they have forfeited that right.

A US or Canadian citizen for that matter has a right to freedom, but if you break a law, then you have forfeited that right and you will be penalized for it.

You may disagree, but I believe gun ownership IS a privelege. I am priveleged to own firearms, by not having a criminal record and by not misusing my tools. If I break the laws surrounding my ownership then I WILL and SHOULD have that privelege revoked. Whether or not I believe that limits my "rights" is beyond the question. If I act unlawfully then I have put others rights to freedom and safety at risk and will be subject to forfeit my own based on a court's decision.

Clearly the individual in this case misused his tool and should be punished, not to exclude the other parties as the primary contributing factor. Their punishment should be far more severe, but you can't possibly think (or maybe you can) this person acted within his rights.

As a gun owner, if you can't hit your target and your target only, you should reconsider your decision to take a shot. I learned that on my first firearms safety course. Maybe education isn't a bad idea after all.
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2010, 10:41:32 AM »
that was a very well thought out post Operator. Instead of being all anti-gun, you were pro responsibility and education balanced with potential punishment.

A big +1

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2010, 11:35:06 AM »
I understand that US citizens have a right to bear arms, however the people around them also have a right to personal safety. If a persons lack of knowledge, be it safety or legal, of the tool (yes, as a member of the military I view weapons as tools) puts an innocent in danger, then the responsibility falls on the individual operating that tool.
Agreed.

To use the example of a driver's license is ridiculous as you are also allowed mistakes on a firearms exam. There are allowances in place. That said if you misuse your driver's license ie. drunk driving, you lose that privelege. So maybe driving should be a "right" and there is no need for anyone to become educated on the subject and have to take tests or driving exams because if I fail and cannot drive, my right to travel freely has now been limited by a government institution?

You continue to confuse what is a "right" with what is a privilege.  Rights are not granted by a government, only privileges.  I will not allow you to muddy this distinction.  An attempt which I find is "ridiculous".

As for the references to ammonia and gasoline, if you are purchasing these items for the uses you refer to, then there is already criminal intent (a crime in itself) and consideration of the law has already been thrown to the wind. If a person however, within their rights, purchases a gun as a method of home or personal protection, it is the responsibility of that individual to educate themselves on the proper use and potential ramifications of misusing that weapon. If they do not, then they have forfeited that right.
I don't know why you wish to add "intent for purchase" to the discussion.
You can buy a firearm, gasoline, bleach, ammonia, and any number of tools which can be misused in a dangerous manner without intent to actually use these items in a dangerous to others manner.
People still have the choice to use these items safely or to others detriment as the "need" arises.

Besides, what military doesn't purchase weapons/materials with intent to harm other individuals?

A US or Canadian citizen for that matter has a right to freedom, but if you break a law, then you have forfeited that right and you will be penalized for it.
I believe this just echoes my previous statement that you will be punished if you break the law, rather than prevented from the ability to break the law.

You may disagree, but I believe gun ownership IS a privelege.
And, in the US you would clearly be wrong, as recently reaffirmed by the US supreme court.  Owning and bearing arms in the US is an individual right, NOT a privilege that suffers from the whim of an oppressive government.

I am priveleged to own firearms, by not having a criminal record and by not misusing my tools.
That is correct in Canada and British ruled territories.  One of the reasons why the US is no longer a British territory is that such government decided it was a privilege and sought to remove firearms from the populace so an oppressive government could remain in power with an occupying standing army usurping individual rights and property.    This led to a revolution of those so "governed", and the arms right was clearly included by the new government so as not to be infringed.

Clearly the individual in this case misused his tool and should be punished, not to exclude the other parties as the primary contributing factor.
And what facts do you base this declaration upon?  Are you actually privy to the crime scene investigation data?  Or, are you simply following media news show reports, focusing on the loss of a baby's life?  (Who wouldn't be emotionally stirred by such events, particularly if worded in the "proper" way?)  Beware of media manipulation.

As a gun owner, if you can't hit your target and your target only, you should reconsider your decision to take a shot. I learned that on my first firearms safety course. Maybe education isn't a bad idea after all.
I don't dispute that education and training to be beneficial toward the use of any powerful tool.  But, that responsibility still resides within the individual in the assumption of that right.

You have, evidently, passed all the hurdles your government has placed before you before allowing you to own a gun.  This badge or right of passage you now feel should be applied to all others, as it now puts you in a government approved, elite group of individuals. (Perhaps in a class above the ordinary citizen?)  I suppose this plays well in Canada, as you really have no choice in the matter.  If you are happy with that, then stay there and stop trying to influence US policy with opinions intended to sway the US populace.  
But beware, the hurdles for your firearm ownership, can be changed at the whim of your government, making them increasingly more difficult to pass and thus "control" who is allowed to own a firearm.  Even if you are allowed a firearm today, it does not mean they can't change the rules tomorrow, making your possession illegal and thus define you as a criminal.  Both Canada and Australia, for example, have experienced the loss of firearm privileges, at the whim of government with no guarantee of them increasing or diminishing such privileges.  (However, a government that fears it's populace will make powerful tools unavailable to them.)

This is my major dispute about your opinion that education be required >before< being "allowed" to own a firearm.  As this removes the right and replaces it with a government issued and controlled privilege, which can be removed at the whim of a government body at the expense of the individual right.

You are certainly allowed your opinion.  And, it is not so surpising that members of the military accept being told what to do and how to think by a superior authority, as well as what rules are to be followed.  

But, I am equally allowed to rebut that opinion in an open forum among free individuals.

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Offline demon78

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2010, 11:50:53 AM »
Ok TT aren't you guilty of trying to influence us about rights by the way you present your case for unfettered owning and use of firearms?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2010, 12:14:02 PM »
Ok TT aren't you guilty of trying to influence us about rights by the way you present your case for unfettered owning and use of firearms?
Bill the demon.
Apart from disagreeing with your "unfettered" term....

Probably.  But, it was a rebuttal to a contrary opinion foisted upon us.

And, if you don't defend your rights, you don't deserve them.
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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2010, 12:15:13 PM »
Ok TT aren't you guilty of trying to influence us about rights by the way you present your case for unfettered owning and use of firearms?
Bill the demon.

I do not see how education that owning firearms is a right is trying to influence an opinion.

This is obfuscation without presenting a viable counter to the statement of fact.  An acknowledgment that no reasonable counter is available to the dissenting individual.


A right is different from a privilege.

Not meaning to speak for TT.


Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2010, 01:08:04 PM »
I dont see how owning a gun is a RIGHT. After all, can you own any gun you want? No. Can the govt choose to take away guns whenever they want? Sure they can. After all, where did this "right" come from? It came from the founders of this government. The same founders that wrote the constitution to be a flexible document that can be amended.
Would it be easy to take away guns? Probably not but the fact is this right is not decreed by god or any other deity but by man. Man which forms governments.
So a person can call it a right all they want but the fact is, that right CAN be revoked which in essence makes it a privilege.
I know others will disagree but the FACT is that gun COULD be taken away. The "right" to own guns is NOT untouchable.

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2010, 01:14:01 PM »
Oh Indigo...


Would please refer to the first 10 amendments of the constitution be too condescending?

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2010, 01:19:36 PM »
I am aware of the bill of rights. I am also aware they can be amended/ Is that too condescending?

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #44 on: March 10, 2010, 01:20:35 PM »
But they have not have they?

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #45 on: March 10, 2010, 01:26:36 PM »
but that does NOT mean it couldn't happen now does it.
Question. Can an amendment be amended? Answer. Yes it can.
Simple as that. So call it a right if you want but do not presume to think it can't be taken away.
One might say that driving is a privilege and guns are a right but don't fool yourself. It is just lip service.
now before you try to call me anti-gun, know this. I own 2 guns of my own. I stand to inherit probably another 20 or so.
I have shot guns all my life and would do all I can to prevent them from being taken away. But I do not presume that just cause I think they wont be taken away, that they can't.

Offline ColinMc

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #46 on: March 10, 2010, 01:28:07 PM »
This thread got very boring very quickly. I think all those involved in this shooting incident should be sent to jail and all the prisoners told that they are in jail for molesting children.
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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2010, 01:51:19 PM »
but that does NOT mean it couldn't happen now does it.
Question. Can an amendment be amended? Answer. Yes it can.
Simple as that. So call it a right if you want but do not presume to think it can't be taken away.
One might say that driving is a privilege and guns are a right but don't fool yourself. It is just lip service.
now before you try to call me anti-gun, know this. I own 2 guns of my own. I stand to inherit probably another 20 or so.
I have shot guns all my life and would do all I can to prevent them from being taken away. But I do not presume that just cause I think they wont be taken away, that they can't.


Sorry, I don't agree, there is a difference, rights are much more difficult for the government to regulate.


Because a right can be changed does not make it the same as a privilege.  Maybe in Canada or Russia, but not here.


I also possess multiple weapons, one inherited, many purchased.  I have hunted, shot farm animals for butchering, killed pests around my homes as required.

I applaud the Supreme Courts upholding of gun rights in DC. I await their decision on what states can regulate.


Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2010, 01:59:07 PM »
Mark, Can an amendment be nullified? that alone gives you your answer. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. What that owning guns is a right? Is that really your big beef point here? Sure maybe it is harder to control than driving but congress has created amendments since the constitution was penned. they can do it again.
MY POINT is that, rights or not, if the govt wants to take it away, they have the power to. Sorry but you cant really disagree with that.

Not trying to argue here, just stating that regardless if owning guns is a right or a privilege, it can be taken away. nothing more. Knowing the laws and not being a moron with a gun will help to keep ownership though.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 02:11:31 PM by Inigo Montoya »

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Re: Some People DON'T Have A CLUE!
« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2010, 02:29:59 PM »
You understand that 66% of congress would have to approve it, and then two thirds of the State legislatures would have to approve of that alteration to remove that right.  It is a complex process to alter Rights.



It's different is all I am saying. 


We are debating semantics, our government is based on a constitution and amendments to that constitution. It works as well as the people elected and appointed to oversee it.  Rights are simply frames that additional regulation must be made to work within.


Back to the subject; the guy who ran out of his home and shot without knowing his target.  His actions have little relation to gun rights, he acted impulsively, he killed a innocent, he is a jerk.