Author Topic: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet  (Read 10035 times)

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Offline IAmCitizenMe

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Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« on: March 10, 2010, 11:08:12 AM »
My rubber airbox couplers are shot. After searching and searching with no results, I decided that my only solution (until I find some decent couplers) is to go with pods. The vintage motorcycle shop where I live said that I could switch to pods and simply adjust the carbs accordingly, that I would not have to rejet. Is this possible?

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 11:13:23 AM »
Wrap.....tape.........your couplers and keep riding.  Spend the $$$ on new couplers.  If your carbs are working now, you may have to go up one size or more on main jets......but I would try to avoid the trouble.
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Offline myhondas

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 11:45:36 AM »
+1

You are much better with airbox than pods.... they are still available and you will have more problems with pods anyway.
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Offline johnyvilla

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 12:04:26 PM »
Spend the money you would have on pods, on some new rubber for your air box.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 12:55:52 PM »
My rubber airbox couplers are shot. After searching and searching with no results, I decided that my only solution (until I find some decent couplers) is to go with pods.
I understand the couplers for the 77-78 K model 550 are near unobtainium.  Is there no way to patch what you have til you can find a used set?

The vintage motorcycle shop where I live said that I could switch to pods and simply adjust the carbs accordingly, that I would not have to rejet. Is this possible?
Your shop likely doesn't understand the lean burn carbs (PD style).  If you have changed the exhaust away from the stock 4 into 4, the carbs will be jetted even leaner, than they would be from just an exhaust or filter change.

You have 3 metering sevices to modify for those changes.  The pilot circuit, (you may or may not have enough adjustment range with the stock IMS.)  If you don't, then off idle engine response will be dodgy.

You will probably have to change the slide needle position to get fule flow in the mid range throttle positions.
And, likely a main jet size increase, to restore WOT position fuel mixture.

Without those changes the engine will run hot, and in the worst case, melt holes in piston tops.

This is interactive with the altitudes (air density) where you are running the engine.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline IAmCitizenMe

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 01:16:00 PM »
My couplers are in pretty bad shape. The rubber is dry-rotted so it's full of holes and shrunk, so it doesn't fully reach from carb to airbox. I really don't want to mess with the carbs at all, nor do I want to take it to a shop and pay a guy to screw it up if that's the case. There's got to be another way to get air from the box to the carbs without manufacturing some couplers out of duct tape and dryer hoses.

Offline myhondas

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 01:23:25 PM »
Here is the cheapest that I found in just 5 min. of search.....  $81.60+ship


http://www.hondaktm.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=123301&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1978&fveh=2947
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 01:25:06 PM by myhondas »
1974 CB 750 K4 SHOWROOM
1974 CB 750 K4 IN PART-OUT PROCESS (my original bike)
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1996 VF 750 CD daily rider
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SOHC# 5105 11228

Offline MCRider

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 02:01:34 PM »
To the original question, I don't see any way the shop's advice could be true. Adjust the cables to make up for it?  sheesh.

BWTFDIK
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 02:22:29 PM »
Here we go again... I don't mean to pick a fight but... Pods are great, velocity stacks are great, you don't have to keep the stock air box if you don't want it. It is not necessarily "best". If you want a stock looking bike why wast money on pods. If you want to put pods on you will likely have to re-jet your carbs, but pods work just as good, If not better than the stock air box. The whole reason you need to re-jet is because of an increase in air flow, this is a good thing.

No offense meant to the old timers, I just think you are leaving out information. :)

I'm not so much offended, as appalled by the misinformation distributed, and the misapplication of physical principles.
 The only possibility of increased air flow is at very high RPMs, at or beyond red line where the stock air box arrangement can become restrictive.  The volumetric efficiency of the engine is NOT changed by the air filter alone.  What does change with the filter element type, is depth of the vacuum pulled in the carb throat.  Just as when you apply choke butterfly closure, which causes a deeper vacuum in the carb throat (which "pulls" more fuel through a given orifice size), a longer and slightly more restrictive filter element tract, also causes a deeper vacuum to occur in the carb bore.  
You have to increase jet/metering size in the carbs for pods because that generally raises the carb throat vacuum which pulls less fuel from the metering orifices.  To compensate for such loss of vacuum and maintain A/F ratios as before, you must increase fuel metering orifice size so the jets can flow the proper amount of fuel for the air being injested by the engine.

Pods don't increase engine air flow or power at idle, yet you still have to make a metering adjustments to compensate for the carb throat pressure differences.

Further, the stock air box and intake runner arrangement was engineered to keep the airflow as laminar as possible, over all the operating ranges.  Turbulent flow contains eddies of higher and lower pressure vortexes which reach into the carb bore. Their length is variable with air speed.  When these eddies occur over the jet outlet ports, you get leaner or richer mixtures with small variations of inlet speeds.  I have yet to see any pods do anything to keep the airflow laminar, not only does the filter media itself generate turbulence right at the mouth of the carb, but most, if not all, have shape edge at the carb inlet over which turbulence is guaranteed to develop.

Pods are cheap and they look "cool".  If you haven't made volumetric efficiency changes inside the engine, or you aren't over revving them, your benefit from pods will be a "change" but don't expect a power improvement for street riding.

If you have a race motor operating well outside of stock parameters, yes you can make use of Pod filter to gain that racer's edge on the track (or dyno)

You can even make pods work acceptably on a street engine.  But, they ain't better!

Finally, "pod filters" are NOT specification.  It is unclear whether two filters from the same manufacturer behave equally, let alone two filters from different manufacturers.

Anybody ever flow benched their pods?



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

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Offline myhondas

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 04:11:15 PM »
Here we go again... I don't mean to pick a fight but... Pods are great, velocity stacks are great, you don't have to keep the stock air box if you don't want it. It is not necessarily "best". If you want a stock looking bike why wast money on pods. If you want to put pods on you will likely have to re-jet your carbs, but pods work just as good, If not better than the stock air box. The whole reason you need to re-jet is because of an increase in air flow, this is a good thing.

No offense meant to the old timers, I just think you are leaving out information. :)

Well, yea you do....pods have some big limitations and down falls....If they were that good, I'll guarantee the factory would start putting them on. If I had an hour to waste, I could get into a lot of the downsides of them...some big and some small. Unless you are trying for a custom look, 9timesoutof10 you are better off with stock airbox.  TT has hit just some of the pitfalls but there are a lot more. Stick with the airbox  and  you can't go wrong.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 04:16:35 PM by myhondas »
1974 CB 750 K4 SHOWROOM
1974 CB 750 K4 IN PART-OUT PROCESS (my original bike)
1965 C100 CUB 50 (PIT BIKE)
1996 VF 750 CD daily rider
1983 VF 1100 V65 Magna in restoration process
SOHC# 5105 11228

Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 04:33:40 PM »
I would be leery of this vintage motorcycle shop if I were you.

Which one is it?
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Offline IAmCitizenMe

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 05:34:12 PM »
I'm not looking for the pros and cons of pods v. stock box. I just wanted to know if that was possible on any certain model, particularly 78 550

I would LOVE to stick with the airbox, but seeing how my couplers are pretty much made out of rubber weld and full of holes and cracks, I can't do that.



I would be leery of this vintage motorcycle shop if I were you.
Which one is it?
Motorrad in South City. He's got tons of bikes including a 78 550 he is working on restoring for himself. Granted, I was just asking for his advice and he said "probably", but I wanted to ask y'all first.

Here is the cheapest that I found in just 5 min. of search.....  $81.60+ship
http://www.hondaktm.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=123301&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1978&fveh=2947
I don't know how I've never seen that. Two Tired says they are nearly unattainable. Could this site really be selling them? I'd call but it's too late in the day.

Offline MCRider

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 06:02:13 PM »
The advice was probably more like a casual remark from a busy person. Likely to change and become more honed if actually prsented with the problem.  Its probably not a big thing to him, but could be to you assuming you're new to the issue.

Those are some nasty looking parts.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 06:10:03 PM »
Here we go again... I don't mean to pick a fight but... Pods are great, velocity stacks are great, you don't have to keep the stock air box if you don't want it. It is not necessarily "best". If you want a stock looking bike why wast money on pods. If you want to put pods on you will likely have to re-jet your carbs, but pods work just as good, If not better than the stock air box. The whole reason you need to re-jet is because of an increase in air flow, this is a good thing.

No offense meant to the old timers, I just think you are leaving out information. :)

Well, yea you do....pods have some big limitations and down falls....If they were that good, I'll guarantee the factory would start putting them on. If I had an hour to waste, I could get into a lot of the downsides of them...some big and some small. Unless you are trying for a custom look, 9timesoutof10 you are better off with stock airbox.  TT has hit just some of the pitfalls but there are a lot more. Stick with the airbox  and  you can't go wrong.

+1000     couldn't have said it any better myself...

Mick
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 06:17:53 PM »
Here is the cheapest that I found in just 5 min. of search.....  $81.60+ship


http://www.hondaktm.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=123301&category=MOTORCYCLES&make=HONDA&year=1978&fveh=2947

You gotta be careful before you get your hopes up on actually getting this part from this company.

I have seen too many sites that show all the parts in stock when Honda quit making the part that you want a long time ago and they don't update their database to show it as not in stock. You might want to call or email them first to see if they can get it or not.
 

Edit: Yeah, that company is listing parts for my '86VFR that I know for a fact are not available, odds are he doesn't have your rubbers either.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 06:23:27 PM by Dukiedook »
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Offline JS550

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 06:20:32 PM »
I'm with Billybob on this. I know people say the airbox is better, but, from my own personal experience, pods worked fine. I ran them on my 76 550k, with a 4into1 with no re jetting and never had any issues. Plugs looked good, no burned pistons, & the bike felt great from around 4grand up. I'm not arguing anyones answers, just stating my own experience with pods.
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Offline patricke9

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 07:53:21 PM »
I am in the same boat- '77 CB550k.  I have tried ordering from a few places that list that part # with no luck, they were happy to take my money, process the order, then in a few days I get an email saying the part is no longer available & refund my money.  I have bought 3 sets off eBay, 2 of which came as a complete air box.  All 3 say the boots are in great condition, soft with no cracks, only to be junk when they get here.  I posted in the wanted section I was looking for at least 2 boots, only reply was that they are only available from Australian Honda dealers for $100.  I tried to get more info from him but got no reply.  Luckily my boots were not as bad and have been able to get them in place and use a product called Seal All:

http://www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/6279426

Works great, just have to reapply if I remove the carbs, but I really am trying to keep this bike stock, but if they get any worse I will have to replace w/pods.  If it comes to that I'll be selling the near perfect pipes, sidecovers, recovered seat and cafe it out like most of my previous bikes.  BTW I do have a crappy set left that I didn't send back that are not great, but better than what you have, pretty cracked but soft & might be usable, pm me if interested,
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Offline Noel

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2010, 08:14:46 PM »
There are a few hardcores on this site who get a bit out of joint at the idea of anything non-stock on a SOHC Honda, and some of them can come up with some pretty convincing arguments against any sort of modification or aftermarket parts. C'est la vie.

I personally think that stock bikes are incredibly boring and unimaginative. But I don't try to shove that view down anyone's throat. C'est la vie, if I didn't already say that.

With all that out of the way, I think the guy at your local shop is a nut. Pods without rejetting might not harm your bike, but will almost certainly cause it to run poorly. I run stacks and getting the bike to run as well as it did with the airbox was a task of several months. I even made some modifications to the carbs to make them easier to remove and install -- I was taking them off constantly.

Bottom line: if you're not doing it for looks or racing, it will probably cost as much to get stacks or pods as it will to find or make new boots -- and that's assuming you don't place any value on your time.

HTH!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 08:16:46 PM by Noel »
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2010, 08:56:36 PM »
Quote
There are a few hardcores on this site who get a bit out of joint at the idea of anything non-stock on a SOHC Honda, and some of them can come up with some pretty convincing arguments against any sort of modification or aftermarket parts. C'est la vie.

It would be easy to bundle us all up in the same basket but for me it has nothing to do with being non stock and everything to do with the best system for the road. I have spoken to hundreds of guys over the years and have owned 17 or 18 {lost count} of these bikes and they have all had piston kits and mods of some sort and i have run airboxes on all of them, actually on more than one occasion i have been told the boxes flow better than pods,  these bikes are a whole lot easier to tune with the stock airbox and don't have that annoying induction sound. I doesn't worry me what anyone uses but pods are NOT better than the stock airbox for street application, i would use pods but only if i could not get my hands on an airbox........Just saying

Mick

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Offline 754

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2010, 09:09:50 PM »
Here is a few reasons that the factory wont use pods..
 (regardless of wether they work good or not, they would in fact be cheaper)

 More intake noise.

 Can be affected by sidewinds.

 Can be affected by getting wet.

 Dont support the carbs.

 Stock bikes are built for general use.. I was never a general use rider, I did get used to passing same bikes as mine with an airbox on them.. ;)
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Offline Noel

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2010, 09:13:11 PM »
My bike runs better with stacks than it did with the airbox. It took a whole lot of work, but as a blanket statement "not better than stock" is not accurate. (Of course, "always better than stock" is certainly not true either. I think it's wrong-headed to call either set-up "better" than another. One is a hell of a lot of work than the other, but the results can be at least as good.)

Oh, and what some folks call "annoying induction sound" I call "beautiful engine music". IOW, the issue gets clouded with personal opinion rather than facts.

Bottom line, again: the OP can install pods or stacks and, with a great deal of effort (or a whole lot of luck) get the bike to run perfectly. But again, if cosmetics are not the goal, it's more work (and probably the same cash outlay) to find or make couplers.

Hopefully that's not a controversial position.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2010, 11:39:32 PM »
Here is a few reasons that the factory wont use pods..
 (regardless of wether they work good or not, they would in fact be cheaper)

 More intake noise.

 Can be affected by sidewinds.

 Can be affected by getting wet.

 Dont support the carbs.

 Stock bikes are built for general use.. I was never a general use rider, I did get used to passing same bikes as mine with an airbox on them.. ;)

Thats interesting 754 because i had an 850 kitted four with airbox and it flogged my mates Z900 Kawasaki and funnily enough, he had pods....I must say that my Honda handled better than the Kwaka though.
I will be running the airbox with fuel injection on my 1000cc build and i can bet you it will be no slouch either.... ;D  You can get less restrictive air filters as well.  ;)

Mick
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 11:42:22 PM by retro rocket »
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2010, 06:04:13 AM »
Heavy rain + pods = Moped

Offline MCRider

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2010, 06:45:31 AM »
I had (and will have again) an 888cc CB750 with pods on CR29 carbs. It required about 2 hours on the carbs to get it running, and it ran very well. Rode it for 15 years, put 50,000 miles on it, flogged it unmercifully. It had a slight surge in crosswinds, but as soon as the road changed direction, that went away. Other than that they were a pleasure. I enjoyed the intake noise. I don't know for a fact that maybe the stock airbox would have outperformed it, but i never felt the need to revert.

In the HawkGT world, there is a speedshop in Ohio that specializes in them. The first thing he does is take the airbox off, replace with pods and rejet the carbs. While it is performance oriented, many of his customers including me ride exclusively on the street. There are absolutely no issues other than intake noise. Which may be a deal breaker for some, to each their own.

He does have dyno proof that the pods outperform the stock airbox with no other changes. Will we ever know for sure on a CB?

Apples to Oranges I know. My point is to each their own and for each there is an alternative
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Offline JZEROE

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Re: Vintage Motorcycle shop says I don't need to rejet
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2010, 06:53:57 AM »
Sombody needs an airbox for a 550? I have a spare one from my '75 550f that's in great shape, sitting on a shelf in my workshop collecting dust. I had no idea they were so hard to come by. If that works for somebody, PM me and we'll work something out. Priority to IamCitizenMe because he got TT to use all those big words in an angry way.

Oh, also, quick real-world test of pods v airbox: get a laser pyrometer, and measure the temperature at your headers. You will find that the middle two cylinders run 10-20-percent hotter than the outside banks when running pods—I did this myself. I'm not an engineer, so I can't really explain what that means. I would imagine, though, that a lot of thermal variation isn't very good for metal. Also, you don't have to be an engineer to point out the tunability and wet-riding benefits of an airbox. Night and day.

*Disclaimer. I ran pods on my 550 for years because they look awesome. Eventually, I got the tuning sorted. But it took a handful of beautiful Saturdays that could've been spent riding.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 07:19:13 AM by JZEROE »
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