Topic: the whole damn world has gone crazy

[Uncle Ernie]

Bingo

Your brain chemistry has an effect on your thoughts and reactions, but YOU can effect your brain chemistry and CHOOSE your thoughts and emotions.  You choose how to react to various situations.   Immature people learn quick enough what actions to display to get what they want, whether it's compliments and kisses, or landing on the floor in a temper tantrum.  Easy enough to manipulate a parent who feels guilty for spending money but not time and energy.  Nice turn-around, actually.  As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Eh- what?  Hmmm?

[Retro Rocket]

Bingo

Your brain chemistry has an effect on your thoughts and reactions, but YOU can effect your brain chemistry and CHOOSE your thoughts and emotions.  You choose how to react to various situations.   Immature people learn quick enough what actions to display to get what they want, whether it's compliments and kisses, or landing on the floor in a temper tantrum.  Easy enough to manipulate a parent who feels guilty for spending money but not time and energy.  Nice turn-around, actually.  As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Eh- what?  Hmmm?

Sorry Uncle, i have had a couple of mates that were bipolar and i can guarantee there are times when these people have absolutely no control over their thoughts, and these guys were not aggressive at all just went off on a tangent every now and again and made no sense what so ever. One guy was quite good looking and had a great family and gorgeous girl and no "outside problems, at his second attempt, he took his own life. I found it very hard to come to terms with his problem and spent many hours talking with him, he was a great guy and a huge loss to his friends and family, his mind just worked differently to ours.

Mick

[Rocking-M]

Really?  It seems to me like it's easier to just claim some psychiatric disorder is to blame instead of taking responsibility for your own actions or inactions. 

I have a sister who could also fit the bi-polar diagnosis and probably has since she is now medicated (my sister is 50 now and has been
up and down her whole life). I have heard of a study where young folks who experience difficulty in the adolescence to adult transition and it is not corrected then, will have these types of problems their whole life. Perhaps this happened to my sister. No one seems to have an answer.

That said, I tend to agree with your notion Gordon. The parents even consider her possibly bi-polar. Her mom and step-dad actually are employed in the keeping of brain injury or retarded folks. They have two clients. So their in the main stream of these diagnosis all the time. This wayward daughter could make allegations against them and they'd be out of work, just by allegations. But, I think that in her case it is a failure to accept personal responsibility for her own actions. She has burned all her bridges in the community
and if she doesn't go off the deep end and harm herself perhaps she'll see this.

She now will have to jump out there and figure life on her on for a while.
That is what her parents have decided and that is best for all concerned.
To me it's like starting a young horse in a round pen, you push it away until
it wants to be part of the your herd. Then bring it back on your terms.
This is what she needs.

[Gordon]

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not saying that people with real psychiatric issues don't have a good excuse for acting inappropriately sometimes.  I'm just saying that sometimes a person's inappropriate actions are excused because of diagnoses made by armchair psychiatrists.  I'm also saying that sometimes people with real, diagnosed psychiatric issues get away with acting in a manner that others wouldn't get away with by using their diagnosis as an excuse. 

[Terry in Australia]

Bi-Polar   

I agree. It's too easy to just say the kid is spoiled rotten and waffle on about what a good parent you are, or your folks were etc.

Really?  It seems to me like it's easier to just claim some psychiatric disorder is to blame instead of taking responsibility for your own actions or inactions. 

You're probably right Gordon, all those people in psychiatric hospitals are probably just "claiming" some psychiatric disorder because they like being locked up in institutions. The world really is a simple place, after all.

Bingo

Your brain chemistry has an effect on your thoughts and reactions, but YOU can effect your brain chemistry and CHOOSE your thoughts and emotions.  You choose how to react to various situations.   Immature people learn quick enough what actions to display to get what they want, whether it's compliments and kisses, or landing on the floor in a temper tantrum.  Easy enough to manipulate a parent who feels guilty for spending money but not time and energy.  Nice turn-around, actually.  As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
Eh- what?  Hmmm?

Rubbish. From memory Ernie, you're pretty ill yourself, and require regular medication to either keep you alive or at least, improve your quality of life, right? You've been diagnosed with a legitimate, well known physical illness, and no one doubts that you're genuine.

But according to your post, when someone has (or claims to have) a mental illness that is less obvious to the average Joe, you're saying that they're just pretending? How would you feel if someone said, Ernie, I think you're just PRETENDING to be ill, just so you don't have to work any more? Stick with what you know mate, not just what you think people want to hear. Cheers, Terry. 

[Gordon]

You're probably right Gordon, all those people in psychiatric hospitals are probably just "claiming" some psychiatric disorder because they like being locked up in institutions. The world really is a simple place, after all.

Well, that's not at all what I was saying, but I know I'm wasting my breath on even responding.

I guess going by your logic every person who has emotional issues and acts irresponsibly because of them has a clinical psychiatric problem and should be excused from following societal guidelines on behavior.

In reality, though, it's not nearly that black & white.

It's difficult to have a civil discussion about a subject when you put words into other's mouths, isn't it?  

[Terry in Australia]

You're probably right Gordon, all those people in psychiatric hospitals are probably just "claiming" some psychiatric disorder because they like being locked up in institutions. The world really is a simple place, after all.

Well, that's not at all what I was saying, but I know I'm wasting my breath on even responding.

I guess going by your logic every person who has emotional issues and acts irresponsibly because of them has a clinical psychiatric problem and should be excused from following societal guidelines on behavior.

In reality, though, it's not nearly that black & white.

It's difficult to have a civil discussion about a subject when you put words into other's mouths, isn't it?  

Hmmnnnnn, lets see, you making a statement that "It seems to me like it's easier to just claim some psychiatric disorder is to blame instead of taking responsibility for your own actions or inactions" is (in your untroubled mind) "having a civil discussion"?

It looks to me more like you over-simplifying something you just don't, (or perhaps, don't want to) understand? But in the spirit of cooperation, I'll run with your theory from now on, anyone I encounter from now on who exhibits any anti social behavior will most likely be a product of poor parenting, and probably just an arsehole.............. 

[Rocking-M]

You're probably right Gordon, all those people in psychiatric hospitals are probably just "claiming" some psychiatric disorder because they like being locked up in institutions. The world really is a simple place, after all.



Rubbish. From memory Ernie, you're pretty ill yourself, and require regular medication to either keep you alive or at least, improve your quality of life, right? You've been diagnosed with a legitimate, well known physical illness, and no one doubts that you're genuine.

But according to your post, when someone has (or claims to have) a mental illness that is less obvious to the average Joe, you're saying that they're just pretending? How would you feel if someone said, Ernie, I think you're just PRETENDING to be ill, just so you don't have to work any more? Stick with what you know mate, not just what you think people want to hear. Cheers, Terry. 

Since I started this one I think I'll respond.

Damn Terry, are you such an #$%* in person?

I think both Gordan and Uncle Ernie have stated it could be fake or a real issue. And in our society now a days
it's fashionable to be diagnosed with a mental disorder when it may actually be as simple as adolescent behavior in kids,
or adults milking the system.

One other thing, it is clear to me after the events of this winter that "the average Joe" could do a better job
with diagnosis and treatment of these cases in many situations. I personally knew 2 people who committed suicide
after being treated for years as suffering from bi-polar disorder. The recent shooting at the Pentagon was by a
man diagnosed an treated for bi-polar problems, treated for years. Clearly the psychiatric system has little success
in "curing" any mental disorder and it's beginning to look like to this average Joe, little success in treating the symptoms.

[sangyo soichiro]

trouble is,kids know, and are in fact educated as to their rights,,its taken all the fear out of them!! morals have lowered,,and i aint no square!!!

Watch it, it's pretty funny.

[Uncle Ernie]

Mr Rocket and Mr Terry,
In my mind, there is a scale that goes from white to black.  The wide majority of people live somewhere in the middle- to varying degrees.  I am not talking about schizophrenics and psychopaths.  I have worked with kids who spend the day rocking in a couch and need to wear a helmet or the back of their head would be literally caved in.  One kid killed the farm rabbits by attempting sex with them.  If you hear God telling you to kill your wife, then go kill your wife.  I suppose you will have saved her from further sin, but the rest of the country just doesn't want you to roam around waving the gun.  I get that.

However, in less extreme cases, it has been proven that your thoughts effect your brain chemistry.  There are as many reasons to be depressed as there are people, but YOU can indeed effect how you think.  It takes a lot of work.   For instance, people with low self-esteem play a mental tape constantly criticizing themselves and telling themselves how stupid or ugly they are.  You have to stop that tape and say the opposite every single time.  For instance;  when you get up in the middle of the night and stub your toe, that was NOT a stupid move.  You need to explain to yourself that perhaps you should turn on the light, re-arrange the furniture, whatever.  I could happen to anyone.

People who feel like rejects or ugly need to realize that they may not even be on most people's radar.  Other people have issues they deal with too.

[Uncle Ernie]

So anyway- when someone does somthing you don't like, you have options as to how you may react, and most people realize that.  You can get angry, confused, sad, question motives- whatever.  A mature person realizes this.  A less developed person can be educated.   No, someone with a scalded grapefruit in their head probably can't be educated, but a lot of times they know they will be tazed if they do the wrong thing and try to learn what the wrong thing is.
People on the extreme either end up dead or behind bars, I guess.  I'm just saying, if you have the mental wherewithall to choose- do so when the negative payoff doesn't work anymore.

[Rocking-M]

So anyway- when someone does somthing you don't like, you have options as to how you may react, and most people realize that.  You can get angry, confused, sad, question motives- whatever.  A mature person realizes this.  A less developed person can be educated.   No, someone with a scalded grapefruit in their head probably can't be educated, but a lot of times they know they will be tazed if they do the wrong thing and try to learn what the wrong thing is.
People on the extreme either end up dead or behind bars, I guess.  I'm just saying, if you have the mental wherewithall to choose- do so when the negative payoff doesn't work anymore.

That sums up this case, the young lady has the mental where with all to put it together. One other observation, you mentioned brain chemistry being effected by thoughts. This young lady has a diary where she constantly mentions/questions being bi-polar. And, it sounds like she is psyching herself up to act bi-polar. It's time she needs to find out about the negative payoffs.

[demon78]

I agree with every thing except about the toe stub around here I know that the Fing  floor was out to get me.
Bill the demon.

[Rocking-M]

I agree with every thing except about the toe stub around here I know that the Fing  floor was out to get me.
Bill the demon.

just today I was slapped by a spring loaded limb, I know it was intentional and I stood and cussed it and stomped around
at least 30 minutes.

[ryder60]

A lot has been said here and I don't think any is wrong.  To bring it together, we've acknowledged that a person can get into a state where they really don't have control of their actions.  We also recognize that it's difficult to judge whether a person's behavior is pathological or whether just self-centered.  Some folks manifest both conditions.  We've also recognized that we are psycho-somatic beings.  That is, our thoughts can influence our body chemistry and our body chemistry can influence our thoughts.  It's hard to judge which is the primal cause in many cases.  That's why we have mental health professionals to help us and they don't have guaranteed diagnosis or fixes.  They can often be wrong.  They are often faced with deciding whether the person is a threat to themselves and to others or not.  If they are a threat they can be incarcerated and if the professional is not sure you have to leave them their freedom.  Time tells whether you should have let them free or not.

I also want to acknowledge the role that parents play in some children's lives that isn't a particularly good influence.  Some are abusive and destroy the child's person and others operate from a place of guilt and shame and fail to set structures and expectations and habitually intervene to prevent the child from ever experiencing a consequence for their actions.

If kids came with instructions it could be easier but they don't come with instructions.  It's difficult being a parent and I remember it was difficult being a kid as well.  In hindsight we can most often say this person or that person did the best they could at the time.  Just the same, life is good despite all the sh*t.

[Rocking-M]

  In hindsight we can most often say this person or that person did the best they could at the time.  Just the same, life is good despite all the sh*t.

that's what I'm sticking with as my excuse.  Yep, life is good!

[Terry in Australia]

Damn Terry, are you such an #$%* in person?

Yeah mate, if not "running with the herd" is me being an #$%*, then I am, for sure.

The underlying theme of this thread was really all about "how kids of today are all spoiled brats", and "back in my day", and "I'm a great parent/my parents are great and so are my kids" etc, and of course, Unkie Ernie and Gordon chimed in with their 2 cents worth, initially refuting any possibility that the girl in question may actually be in poor mental health, Gordon opining that she made the whole thing up, and Ernie suggesting his own theory that your thoughts affect your mental chemistry, when in fact, it's actually the other way around. To be fair to them both, they did soften their stances later on, (what we call "back-pedalling" here) when they realized that not everyone agreed with the theme of this thread.

Your remark regarding the suicide situation (currently the third biggest killer of teenagers in the US) demonstrates the naivety of the "average Joe" when it comes to mental illness. People suffering from Bi-Polar syndrome often commit suicide, in fact, my brother was on suicide watch when he was incarcerated for attempting to strangle his wife, a standard procedure when dealing with inmates with psychological disorders. The medication that he is prescribed helps to keep him calm, bit it won't cure him, and of course, only works if he actually takes it. A psychiatrist or psychologist is trained to treat people suffering from mental illness, but it'd be a brave person indeed who'd come out and make a claim that they could actually cure it.

The problem with mental illness, compared to a physical affliction, is that you can't see it, and what you can't see, (with the possible exception of God, Buddha, Allah, or whoever it is that you pray to) you have problems believing. It's easier to come out and label someone as an #$%*, a spoiled brat, whatever, and at the same time give yourself a big pat on the back for the great job you've done with your own kids. If only life really was that simple.......... 

[Rocking-M]

I think it's clear neither Uncle Ernie nor Gordon run with the herd. AND,

Whoa there matey. No one has patted themselves on the back as to their child rearing abilities.

My remark on the suicide bit was, these are people who are treated that are doing it. Not sure if you got that.

No one has a doubt that mental illness can be real, you however seem to doubt that some kids or adults may
milk the system and be seeking that metal disability label as a means to get away with their misbehavior.

[Terry in Australia]

you however seem to doubt that some kids or adults may milk the system and be seeking that metal disability label as a means to get away with their misbehavior.

No mate, never said that, and I think we've all been guilty of trying to put something over someone else in our lives, whether it was just so we could get out of a days school, a speeding fine, whatever.

The trouble is that you and Gordon, and Ernie, would rather believe that everyone that displays anti-social behavior, is trying to put it over us. Which is ironic really, considering the title of this thread.

Not "Herd Mentality"? Mooooooo........... 

[Rocking-M]

you however seem to doubt that some kids or adults may milk the system and be seeking that metal disability label as a means to get away with their misbehavior.

No mate, never said that, and I think we've all been guilty of trying to put something over someone else in our lives, whether it was just so we could get out of a days school, a speeding fine, whatever.

The trouble is that you and Gordon, and Ernie, would rather believe that everyone that displays anti-social behavior, is trying to put it over us. Which is ironic really, considering the title of this thread.

Not "Herd Mentality"? Mooooooo........... 

no Sir my moooing friend.

No one insinuated that "everyone" is trying to pull one over. What was stated, perhaps over your head, was to this effect. This young lady, whom I've known for 15 years of her 19 year life, used the system to her benefit and the detriment of her father. AND, those in the system who should know how to process information did not. They ignored the testimony of an eye witness (her step-father), her mother, her father and others in the community. They did so because, it was stated that if
he touched his daughter then he must be found guilty of assault. Even thought the touch consisted of grabbing her sweater. Nary a mark on the girl. If this is the kind of legal system that is condoned by the masses of moooooing friends then the "whole damn world has gone crazy".

[Terry in Australia]

no Sir my moooing friend.

No one insinuated that "everyone" is trying to pull one over. What was stated, perhaps over your head, was to this effect. This young lady, whom I've known for 15 years of her 19 year life, used the system to her benefit and the detriment of her father. AND, those in the system who should know how to process information did not. They ignored the testimony of an eye witness (her step-father), her mother, her father and others in the community. They did so because, it was stated that if
he touched his daughter then he must be found guilty of assault. Even thought the touch consisted of grabbing her sweater. Nary a mark on the girl. If this is the kind of legal system that is condoned by the masses of moooooing friends then the "whole damn world has gone crazy".

Ha ha, you forgot to say "in your opinion" mate, because regardless of how long you've known the family, everything in your post is only your "take" on the situation. If you knew anything at all about Bi-Polar syndrome, you would know that lying, or to be more accurate, processing information differently to everyone else, is a standard symptom. As far as the contents of this thread so far being "over my head", well, I seriously doubt it.............. 

[Rocking-M]

Ha ha, you forgot to say "in your opinion" mate, because regardless of how long you've known the family, everything in your post is only your "take" on the situation. If you knew anything at all about Bi-Polar syndrome, you would know that lying, or to be more accurate, processing information differently to everyone else, is a standard symptom. As far as the contents of this thread so far being "over my head", well, I seriously doubt it.............. 
[/quote]

well my mooing friend, next time before I jump to any conclusions about folks I've know most of their lives, I'll ask a dumb australian
10,000 miles away what I should think. I'm sure you'll know.

[Retro Rocket]

I'll ask a dumb australian

Nice RM........

Mick

[Rocking-M]

I'll ask a dumb australian

Nice RM........

Mick

oops, there are smart ones too, didn't I say that?

[bucky katt]

i have to ask RM, the horseman in me..what kind of shape is the critter in? physically and mentally? i've seen otherwise nice horses get looney owners and turn totally dangerous.