Topic: from one scientist to the next...

[Magpie]

Yes.
Cliff.

[wannabridin]

Everything exists between zero and infinity, whatever you concieve that to be.

The middle of an infinity is a non sequitur.

Any point you can name has an infinity to each side...


Back to my question...

Back to the 10^70 J of energy;  is this closer to zero or infinity?

what i meant was what is between infinity and zero, after infinity, before zero.  my wording choice was poor the first time around.

but to give you a more straightforward answer, it all depends on what reference you are referring to.  with respect to the universe currently, zero as it's a near constant in the sense of inflation, but to a planet facing energy "problems", infinity...

[Caaveman82]

Everything exists between zero and infinity, whatever you concieve that to be.

The middle of an infinity is a non sequitur.

Any point you can name has an infinity to each side...


Back to my question...

Back to the 10^70 J of energy;  is this closer to zero or infinity?

what i meant was what is between infinity and zero, after infinity, before zero.  my wording choice was poor the first time around.

but to give you a more straightforward answer, it all depends on what reference you are referring to.  with respect to the universe currently, zero as it's a near constant in the sense of inflation, but to a planet facing energy "problems", infinity...

Closer to 0

[sangyo soichiro]

Everything exists between zero and infinity, whatever you concieve that to be.

The middle of an infinity is a non sequitur.

Any point you can name has an infinity to each side...


Back to my question...

Back to the 10^70 J of energy;  is this closer to zero or infinity?

what i meant was what is between infinity and zero, after infinity, before zero.  my wording choice was poor the first time around.

but to give you a more straightforward answer, it all depends on what reference you are referring to.  with respect to the universe currently, zero as it's a near constant in the sense of inflation, but to a planet facing energy "problems", infinity...

Closer to 0

Yes. 
And a neat little proof of this is thus:
Let x equal some positive integer.
Then x is exactly midway between 0 and 2x.
It follows that x is closer to 0 than 2x+1.
Therefore, 10⁷⁰ is closer to 0 than ∞.

[wannabridin]

soichiro, you and your math analogies!!!  but how close is it to zero when you're out of gas and just need some GO!  

but yes, it is close to 0.  now can we look at zero as being more of a "defined" point in space, whereas infinity is just that, infinite and unapproachable?  can we treat infinity as a point we can never quite reach, as an asymptote approaches a value but only reaches it AT infinity??  

thus, as soichiro says, 0 will always be closer to a value than infinity.  is my logic correct in this?

[Markcb750]

Yes, 10^70 J is virtually zero relative to a greater infinite universe. 

it is why I keep thinking that no mater what we think we know, what theory you want to apply, string, membrane, multiverse, holographic projection...doesn't matter the foundation is infinite,

It's turtles all the way down. 

[wannabridin]

i do have a turtle, named tuck, but i don't think he'd take too kindly for me riding him down anything!   


well isn't everything relatively zero when taken with respect to the greater sum??

[Markcb750]

This has been my thinking, the only reason for our existence is we are so close to zero we just don't matter.


What did you think about the down the rabbit hole article?

I picked up a box turtle trying to cross the road yesterday, I assumed he wanted to get to the other side so I stoped and took him there.

[wannabridin]

GREAT!!!  now everything is screwed up, that turtle wanted to sit around and ponder what your CAR was driving towards it.  much like the blue whale ponders it's own existence while falling from the sky right before it smacks into the ground... (i hope you caught that reference)

the down the rabbit hole article is very intriguing.  now the "proof" is in the quantum pudding, so as yet, it's still just a theory, but one i indeed enjoy much more than most.  this would help explain a multitude of things, especially the multiverse theory.  my only question is what happens when the black hole/white hole pair decrease their entropy enough to fizzle out?  does this mean that inside the theorized quantum black holes, multitudes of other universes are blinking in and out of existence in 1/100ths of nanoseconds??  what happens to the matter in these universes? 

mark, and others, what are you thoughts on Einstein-Rosen bridges?  are all black holes worm holes?

[Markcb750]

42 petunias come to mind…




Wormholes are another interesting side effect of the lack of a theory of everything. Because the model Einstein provided to explain the motion of things in the universe is “incomplete” the equations can provide descriptions of reality that may not be “real”.  As no observational evidence has been discovered which confirms the existence of intra, or inter universe connections I do not know what they can provide beyond entertainment. I enjoyed some of the science fiction written around the concept though.


If we are to believe the evidence of the Casmir effect, particles are coming into and out of existence around us all the time.  Each event is theoretically taking place in far less then 1/100ths of a nanosecond.  So if the Multiverse concept is real, and black holes from another universe are opening holes in our universe to spew something here I would expect some predictable effect, a track in the snow.  I have not read anything which makes a predictable connection.

Speculating; I would think the dark energy proponents would glom onto this evaporating wormhole issue as a part of the accelerating Universe indicated by the latest supernova investigations.  Spewing “space” from one Multiverse to the next…causing us to expand at an accelerating pace.  This has the issue of why our Universe does not dump as much as we are gaining,  My thought trail heads down the Multiverse theory that each universe has slightly differing physical properties with our Universe being one that draws on the others to present what we see.  




Where speculation like this leads me is, “are we special”? (The anthropic principle)  

I do not think we are special so I look for an explanation. An Infinity does it for me.




A little off the discussion about the existence of wormholes, but close eh?

[sangyo soichiro]

One for wannabridin:

And one for Mark: 

[wannabridin]

VERY nice find sori!!!  well played sir

[Markcb750]

But:

The Cat just has potential.


Given Maxwell was a Positivist, I am not sure he would have appreciated what his equations provided the basis for today.

Maxwell developed a model that made repeatable predictions, as I have been pointing out, working models are not necessarily statements of truth.  During his lifetime I believe they felt the universe was a "clockwork" and they just needed to define the starting conditions and the future could be predicted. 

QM Puts the dick to that...

[Markcb750]

Today’s best science news.

Huge Chunk of Universe's Missing Matter Found

This is an interesting discovery about finding some of the matter which is required for the motions of galaxies to be accurately described by relativity.  Apparently there are great walls of protons extending between the galaxies but still part of the spider web structure we see depicted in models like the photo below.

The material is revealed in X-ray emissions of the matter caused by a high energy particle jet from an active super massive black hole, it is about 1/20th the average density within a galaxy’s space between stars. 

This discovery certainly fits a frothy nature of the observable universe.  What I find interesting is speculating about what caused this bubbly froth; what aspect of warped space/time caused this, or is there a property of the empty space inside the bubble which caused matter to form at the interface?  Interesting stuff.   

[traveler]

what caused it?  God.

[Markcb750]

what caused it?  God.

 

[wannabridin]

what caused it?  God.

 

you would say this Mark!

it was a very interesting article.  after reading your thoughts on why it got this way, it made me think about the CBR (cosmic background radiation).  the CBR is supposed to be very uneven and splotchy, but measurements show it to be very near uniform.  physicists predicted this non-uniformity to be caused from dark energy as well as the matter - anti-matter battle in the first few moments after the big bang, yet it's uniform somehow, i guess over large enough times and distances things dilute enough. 

now what gets me is what is causing this massive wall of matter to accumulate in the way it does?  dark energy interactions with the gravitational fields?  are there some sort of super massive "currents" floating through space causing the accumulation of all this matter?

on last thing:  the article states the mass of matter is 400 million light years distant, yet later it states it's 400 light years.  i hope the 2nd part is a type, because unless this wall is JUST matter, the closest known galaxy to us is the Canis major Dwarf Galaxy, about 25,000 ly away...  "The 'wall' is a large diffuse structure that stretches across tens of millions of light-years and contains thousands of galaxies." states the article.

[Markcb750]

Yes, I find stuffing deities into cracks amusing.

It is not a typo, the article is stating that the wall 400MLY away is being lit by a AGN from about 400 LY away. 


"Along the line of sight to this AGN, at a distance of approximately 400 light-years away, is the so-called Sculptor Wall. The "wall" is a large diffuse structure that stretches across tens of millions of light-years and contains thousands of galaxies. "

(AGN= Active Galactic Nucleus)

I Don't know of any theories that connect dark energy or mater/antimatter  connected with the minor variations in the CBR, I think it is believed to be due to sonic waves coursing through the primordial mater "soup" very early in the formation of our space time.  concurrent with or just as the theoretical inflationary epoch occurred which appears to have made space flat. 

[wannabridin]

i thought the AGN was 2 billion light years away...  "The AGN is located about two billion light-years away."

i see.  i know one theory to the CBR is due to the slightly larger groupings of heavier particles left over from matter - anti-matter annihilation's and this caused the inconsistencies.  couple this with uneven expansion rates and you could get these walls of matter...

[Markcb750]

i thought the AGN was 2 billion light years away...  "The AGN is located about two billion light-years away."

i see.  i know one theory to the CBR is due to the slightly larger groupings of heavier particles left over from matter - anti-matter annihilation's and this caused the inconsistencies.  couple this with uneven expansion rates and you could get these walls of matter...

The unevenness is due to the "ringing" of the universes bell so to speak, the sound waves caused slightly increased density as the wave passes, just as it does in our atmosphere. 


The Mater/antimatter event at the big bang lead to the creation of allmost 100% hydrogen nuclei, and electrons. This matter/antimatter was nearly ballanced but the slight favoring of matter, well below 1%, that left the antimatter converted back into energy, the matter what we observe in the CRB, or in the walls of matter we see in our observations. 


I do not think this lead to the structure we see, it just left the sonic waves something to pass through


 

The something that formed the frothy structure leads to this sound wave theory.

[wannabridin]

good points mark.  but still, i think there was a typo in the article.  there's nothing except single or small multiple star systems within 400 ly of us, the closest object that could be called a real galaxy is what i listed, the Canis major dwarf galaxy.  

so mark, elaborate your thoughts on this so called "ringing" we observe?  dark matter?  another form of unseen energy?



on a side note, i explained Schrodinger to my girlfriend, and the made me repeat it to my parents, and they would NOT attempt to wrap their heads around it.  my mom couldn't take the faith part out of the "equation" and my gf just didn't want to think that hard...  i swear she has blonde roots...

[Markcb750]

good points mark.  but still, i think there was a typo in the article.  there's nothing except single or small multiple star systems within 400 ly of us, the closest object that could be called a real galaxy is what i listed, the Canis major dwarf galaxy. 

so mark, elaborate your thoughts on this so called "ringing" we observe?  dark matter?  another form of unseen energy?



on a side note, i explained Schrodinger to my girlfriend, and the made me repeat it to my parents, and they would NOT attempt to wrap their heads around it.  my mom couldn't take the faith part out of the "equation" and my gf just didn't want to think that hard...  i swear she has blonde roots...

It is written in a confusing way, i believe they are trying to describe the direction and length of the "beam" of energized particles in the wall of matter.

There is an excellent paper here"
The Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation  byMagnus Axelsson November 11, 2005


the heart of this article regarding my "ringing" is in this section:

3.2 Anisotropy and observational support for inflation

In order to create the inhomogeneity and structures seen in the Universe, the primordial Universe cannot have been completely homogeneous. Anisotropy in the CMB was therefore a necessary prediction of the Big Bang model. However, some of the large scale fluctuations observed by COBE were a problem for the standard Big Bang model. The regions in causal contact at the time of recombination subtend » 1± on the sky today, and the model did not agree with isothermal regions many times that size. The answer to the problem was to invoke a period of accelerated expansion in the early Universe, inflation. In this scenario, smaller regions in causal contact were quickly expanded, keeping the same temperature and thereby reconciling the Big Bang model with the large isothermal regions observed by COBE.
As radiation and matter were coupled until the time of recombination, any density fluctuations in the matter distribution will be imprinted on the CMB. Measuring the fluctuations thus provides information on the gravitational potential at the time of recombination.

Hu & White [4] liken the fluctuations to standing waves in music, where integer numbers of halfwavelengths are amplified to give a fundamental tone and overtones. At the time of inflation, quantum fluctuations in the inflation field provide initial disturbances which are then magnified during inflation.This provides fluctuations in the energy density of the primordial plasma, which are approximately equal on all scales. The fluctuations then begin to oscillate in time, such that a hotter region will tend toward average temperature, overshoot and become cooler than average, then reheat. At the time of recombination, the photons decouple, and thus the regions at maximum deviation at that time will show the largest temperature differences in the CMB. Since the oscillations all started at the same time, the regions showing the largest temperature fluctuations will be the ones who have completed an integer
number of half cycles in the time between inflation and recombination, thereby reaching maximum deviation at recombination. Inflationary cosmology thus predicts clear peaks in the anisotropy power spectrum of the CMB, where the first appears at the scale of one half-cycle, the second at the scale of one cycle, and so on.

[Markcb750]

As to the potentially dead cat:

 I would not even attempt to discuss this with my wife; Without an interest in the subject, discussion is futile. *** 



I don't think Bohr and Schrodinger agreed on the cat paradox, although I have never read anything about their relationship anywhere except on the Journey by Starlight website.

[wannabridin]

mark,

doesn't NASA have an anisotropy telescope up in space?  oops, try google!  the WMAP (Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilkinson_Microwave_Anisotropy_Probe

i remember reading about this shortly after it was launched, back when i didn't care nearly this much about science.  i was interested, but i was only 17 and in high school, i had other things on my mind, haha!  either way, great piece of technology, and this paper you've posted will be read at lunch today!  i have done my own dabbling in the anisotropy measurements NASA conducts, but thanks for refreshing me memory!


here's something else i would like to bring up for discussion.  zero point energy and chaos theory.  has any dabbled in this?  i know they're not related, but they were floating around my head earlier this morning.

[wannabridin]

As to the potentially dead cat:

 I would not even attempt to discuss this with my wife; Without an interest in the subject, discussion is futile. ***

come on Mark, you know you love to ATTEMPT to talk about this with your wife!!  oh wait, maybe you're quite a bit wiser than i in this regard.  i try to bug my gf with the crap i'm interested in, and while she (God bless her!) tries to act interested, she shuts down before i start to talk!  what's this Journey by Starlight website?