Topic: CL/CB 350K Starter delete?

[Frankenkit]

Can anyone run through the steps involved in a starter delete and also let me know if it's worth doing for anyone who's not shaving weight for a race bike?

I have "issues" with my starter- I suspect it may be the starter clutch, but when I hit the button it sounds just like a Virago starter- rattly and harsh.  It started the bike (before I took the carbs, etc apart, that is) but it sounds really rough like that and spins for a little bit after the bike has started (hence my suspicion about the starter clutch)

I'm not afraid to kick my bike over every time- I think that'd be way cooler and gentler on the charging system than using the electric start, but if anyone has good reasons to keep the ES, I'm all ears for that, too.

[TomC]

Hi Kit
     I tend to leave the dead starter in place. But that is because I am lazy.
     My understanding is all that needs to be done is to remove the starter and plug the hole. There are special fancy plugs out there to fill the hole. But an expandable freeze plug of the correct size from you local auto parts store should work. I would remove the cable running from the starter to the starter solenoid. The battery side post of the solenoid is a connecting point for several wires. So just leave it there.
     TomC in Ohio

[cb650]

I dont know about the 350's but on the 360 you need to remove a clip under the left cover to get the starter out.  Someday I'll get around to it.  All the wiring and button is gone for the starter. 

[tbpmusic]

I have "issues" with my starter- I suspect it may be the starter clutch, but when I hit the button it sounds just like a Virago starter- rattly and harsh.  It started the bike (before I took the carbs, etc apart, that is) but it sounds really rough like that and spins for a little bit after the bike has started (hence my suspicion about the starter clutch)

It's the starter clutch alright.
To fix or eliminate, you'll have to remove the left engine cover and alternator, will need the alternator puller-offer tool.

The starter is a pretty good indicator of what's happening with your battery.
Our charging systems are marginal at best - most of the problems folks have are battery related.
These bikes will not start or run well with a compromised battery, period.

So if you don't have enough juice to spin the starter, you probably shouldn't take off on your old Honda.......

[mlinder]

Kit, I have the "alternator puller-offer tool" if you want to use it. (I love technical terms. I have no idea if that's its actual name or not, lol.)

Apparently there are wheel 'caps' that are an exact fit for the hole left over.

[tbpmusic]

Kit, I have the "alternator puller-offer tool" if you want to use it. (I love technical terms. I have no idea if that's its actual name or not, lol.)

Apparently there are wheel 'caps' that are an exact fit for the hole left over.

Well, if that's not the name, it should be.

I believe that a CB350 rear axle is a good substitute for the tool ............

[Frankenkit]

that's what I've read.  Huh.
Mark- I read that $7 fix on hondatwins.com, too.  I like it. I like it a lot.
TomC- I like the idea of using the starter as a diagnostic tool! Since I'm not shaving weight for racing, I might keep it just for that reason.

TBP- That's what I needed to visualize it. Right there.  So I would remove the left cover, remove the alternator with a puller (would a bolt of the same thickness and thread pitch as the axle work?  If so, I believe I have a bolt that fit the same dia/pitch as my 650 to pull that rotor- I'll have to check and see if they're the same diameter.  Is it the same deal where you tighten down said bolt and it pops the alternator off the relatively smooth crank shaft?

To repair the starter clutch, I would just replace the wee springs and roller bearings, then, as they come in the lil' kits off ebay (or from Honda) right?  The honda service manual goes into painfully little detail on this stuff.

[tbpmusic]

TBP- That's what I needed to visualize it. Right there.  So I would remove the left cover, remove the alternator with a puller (would a bolt of the same thickness and thread pitch as the axle work?  If so, I believe I have a bolt that fit the same dia/pitch as my 650 to pull that rotor- I'll have to check and see if they're the same diameter.  Is it the same deal where you tighten down said bolt and it pops the alternator off the relatively smooth crank shaft?

To repair the starter clutch, I would just replace the wee springs and roller bearings, then, as they come in the lil' kits off ebay (or from Honda) right?  The honda service manual goes into painfully little detail on this stuff.

Any bolt that fits "should" work ok, you may have to round the end a bit to make it look sort of "punch-like". The crank is smooth, but there's a woodruff key.
Sometimes they don't want to come off, but an impact generally breaks them free - then the rotor should pop right off.

The tool itself is less than $10 from Motion Pro - http://www.motionpro.com/motorcycle/partno/08-0027/




Once the rotor is loose, the starter chain has a little clip that comes off - then the whole deal, alternator, starter chain and small starter sprocket, all come off together.
The rollers/springs/caps (13, 3, 2) can be replaced in the starter clutch - but make sure the circular plate that holds it all in (#4) is not cracked (very common), as well as the starter clutch plate itself (#1).

[754]

If its a 30mm hole, I sell plugs for them.
 The 350 starter is more prone to problems, than those on the fours. Mainly because they are out in the weather..

 If you are not using it, I would take it off, a lot of extra weight to pack around..

[chickenman_26]

Kit,
If you remove the starter, you'll likely be putting it back on after the first time you stall the bike at a stop light. The springs, spring caps, and rollers will repair the starter clutch if the springs are collapsed or the rollers have flat spots. But if the ramps in the housing have flat spots or other damage, you'd be better off replacing the whole thing. Chances are, the starter clutch work fine with no new parts if you just take it all apart and clean all the parts.

Stu

[Frankenkit]

What I don't understand is that the bike only has 5k original miles on it.  Why, then, the electric starter would already be so noisy and rattly is what floors me.  I'll keep it just because it doesn't make sense to remove it given my use for the bike.  Just need to figure out why it's doing what it's doing.

[754]

Chickenman, what do you mean? I had several 350,s never found them hard to kickstart? 750s either for that matter..

 Kit, while 5 K may be a month or less on a bigger roadbike, 5K on a smaller grocery getter , could be as much as many years of use...

[Frankenkit]

754, think there'd be a difference if you were 115#?

[754]

Not really.. 750s can usually be kickstarted with your hand.. seen it done on Harleys too..

 350 aint real hard like a single..biggest problem is if you can comfortably hold it up when kicking.. if you cant then it may be a problem..

 If it runs you can try it and see..

[Frankenkit]

yeah I need to get it to that point yet.

[TomC]

Hi Kit
     Parts may be just stuck. Put this at the bottom of you list. Get back to this after you have put some miles on the bike.
          TomC in Ohio

[Green550F]

Kit, When I weighed in at 115... I could stand on my kickstarter without turning over the engine! (had to jump up and kick on the way down). Of course that wasn't a 350, it was a Sachs 125! Now that was HIGH compression! To make matters worse, the kickstart was on the left side.

[754]

It looks cool when guys kickstart their bike...

 Looks even cooler when girls do it....

[Frankenkit]

Kit, When I weighed in at 115... I could stand on my kickstarter without turning over the engine! (had to jump up and kick on the way down). Of course that wasn't a 350, it was a Sachs 125! Now that was HIGH compression! To make matters worse, the kickstart was on the left side.

ha! that would suck.  I  tore something in my left knee a few years ago, so every month or every couple of months I'll have a week or two where it "acts up" in a bad way, so I'm thinking it would be a good thing to have an electric start "just in case" so I don't have to try to jump on my starter with my bad leg holding everything up.

No I'm not being a puss- I just made my tank really pretty and don't want to scratch it.

[MickeyX]

Puss.



  

[chickenman_26]

What I don't understand is that the bike only has 5k original miles on it.  Why, then, the electric starter would already be so noisy and rattly is what floors me.  I'll keep it just because it doesn't make sense to remove it given my use for the bike.  Just need to figure out why it's doing what it's doing.

The howling noise you're hearing is the electric starter motor being driven by the starter clutch while there's no voltage to the starter.  It's not the fault of the starter motor. And you'll still hear it, even if you use the kick pedal to start the engine. How long you hear it depends on how long it takes for the starter clutch to break free. It should release the instant you take your finger off the start button.

The mileage on the bike is immaterial at this time. The bike is how old? 43 years? That starter clutch has spent many years in filthy, gritty old oil, with nothing more than a mesh screen to keep out the bigger chunks. And the tiny parts in that clutch are likely gummed up, scored, or both. After you get it running, add a couple of ounces of Marvel Mystery Oil to the engine (don't over fill). Ride it a few hundred miles, and change the oil again. I'd bet the problem will slowly disappear on its own.

Stu

[754]

Stu, my 350s all had the centrifugal filter that catches quite a bit of stuff..

 IIRC that tool to access it , is the same I use on a 750 clutch locknut..

 Kit when you get it running, you must do the naked  desert ride, it is MaNdAtOrY....since that movie came out....

[Frankenkit]

Sure, once I see pics of your naked desert ride.

I'm leaving the starter in.  Chickenman was right- the more I run the bike, the better the starter sounds.  Good to know!

[754]

What do you need girl, stills or video...    

 Too bad I dont have the red/white CL 350 anymore...