Topic: health care bill

[BeSeeingYou]

I've traveled in Europe a little, things are a little more expensive, but nothing like Japan.  They eat a lot of rice there because meat is very expensive.   


My beef with the UK is their tepid beer, gave me a pounding headache every time I drank it, and I tried many times, and many different types.

I thought their breakfast sausage sucked.  In one B&B there was a German couple and when asked if they wanted sausage the man crossed his hands back and forth and said "no sausage, no sausage".  Go for the bacon instead.  Bass and Newcastle  are two beers I really like alongside my favorite, Guinness.

[DaytonGuy]

There are two ways to look at the "taking care of the people" argument.  The way that Americans have traditionally preferred for the government to "take care of the people" (and still do, based on the unpopularity of the healthcare bill that was signed yesterday), has been for the government to keep their filthy, stinking, tax-grubbing hands off because we are adults and can take care of ourselves.

First off...what is the second way?  You say there are two ways to look at it, but only mention one way.

Second....In a capitalistic society like ours, you will always have "the haves" and "the have nots".  This is simply a fact.  The system produces an upper, a middle, and a lower class.  by your statement the lower class can get along just fine by taking care of themselves.  Have you ever tried to live on $8.00/hr.?  Let along support a family on anything less than $12.00 - $15.00 per hour.  How do those folks get "taken care of?"  If we as a society are willing to stand back and scream "let the free markets reign" then we know what the free markets produce.....rich people, average people, and ............wait for it..........wait for it...........poor people.  There, I said.....poor people.  I believe we as a society have a certain obligation to take care of those folks who are created by the capitalistic society we value.  Maybe I'm way off base here.....

Maybe the answer isn't to create a healthcare system that provides insurance to everyone.  Maybe the answer is to require a minimum wage that is a true living wage...say $15.00/hr.  Maybe then people are more likely to be able to afford health insurance.  Oh wait.....what about the rich folks at the top?  They would be less rich if they had to pay everyone a wage like that.....  The R's would never let that happen.

[MRieck]

" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Wnston Churchill.

[MCRider]

" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Wnston Churchill.

Very good. And along those lines, if you'll allow me: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.” Margaret Thatcher

[edbikerii]

Thanks Mike,

Here's another quote from Winston Churchill:

“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.”

[Retro Rocket]

" The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessing, the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries"  Winston Churchill.

And look at the people that have been in charge of the countries that implemented socialism, they used its better points to hoodwink their people and then used it {socialism} for their own greed and ideals. I would like to see examples of this system where it was not run by Criminal dictators....
Not looking for an argument, just saying..

Mick

[MRieck]

There are two ways to look at the "taking care of the people" argument.  The way that Americans have traditionally preferred for the government to "take care of the people" (and still do, based on the unpopularity of the healthcare bill that was signed yesterday), has been for the government to keep their filthy, stinking, tax-grubbing hands off because we are adults and can take care of ourselves.

First off...what is the second way?  You say there are two ways to look at it, but only mention one way.

Second....In a capitalistic society like ours, you will always have "the haves" and "the have nots".  This is simply a fact.  The system produces an upper, a middle, and a lower class.  by your statement the lower class can get along just fine by taking care of themselves.  Have you ever tried to live on $8.00/hr.?  Let along support a family on anything less than $12.00 - $15.00 per hour.  How do those folks get "taken care of?"  If we as a society are willing to stand back and scream "let the free markets reign" then we know what the free markets produce.....rich people, average people, and ............wait for it..........wait for it...........poor people.  There, I said.....poor people. I believe we as a society have a certain obligation to take care of those folks who are created by the capitalistic society we value.  Maybe I'm way off base here.....

Maybe the answer isn't to create a healthcare system that provides insurance to everyone.  Maybe the answer is to require a minimum wage that is a true living wage...say $15.00/hr.  Maybe then people are more likely to be able to afford health insurance.  Oh wait.....what about the rich folks at the top?  They would be less rich if they had to pay everyone a wage like that.....  The R's would never let that happen.

I totally agree and we have that....it's called SCHOOL. After working in the Boston School System for over 20 years I'd say we need people that act like parents...not sperm donors and walking uterus's. The SPCA wouldn't turn an animal over to some of the pieces of lowlife I've seen. I've seen kids sit in the same classrooms and some do well and others don't. Cognitive differences aside some are pushed and have a family that recognizes the importance of education. Education can set you free and everybody has access to it. Some use it, some don't. Unfortunately the kids are the victims BUT, upon entering adulthood, they are pissed with system that they feel screwed them over.
  Poverty is a terrible thing but there are ways to break the cycle. I'm pretty tired of the insinuation and accusations that Republicans hate the poor and would rather execute them. Would it be fair to say democrats hate anyone that has experienced financial success and want to grind them and their families into the ground (only after stealing all their money and possessions)?

[Roach Carver]

I understand 8 bucks an hour. I worked for that and less. That is when I decided to go back to school and get an education ( 8 years worth). Mom and Dad did not pay my way. I borrowed every cent and am now slowly paying it back. I also now work about 5.5 to 6 days per week. I dont understand the philosophy that if you cant make it on 8 bucks an hour you are screwed and everyone else should kick in. There are a multitude of options for people who are struggling to make it. The first and quickest is... A SECOND JOB. I know, it sucks, but you may have to work more than 40 hours a week to pay the bills. I work as hard or harder than I ever did before, more stress and more responsiblilty but it is a way to provide for my family.

[MRieck]

Just got my health insurance renewal in Massachusetts, which has already adopted the health insurance for all. My bill for my wife and I went from $980. per month to just over $1340. per month. (Tufts Basic 25)
Nice huh?

This is exactly what most of you folks are in for. I spoke about it earlier. No complaining allowed.

[DaytonGuy]

Would it be fair to say democrats hate anyone that has experienced financial success and want to grind them and their families into the ground

You mean they don't   

[edbikerii]

Mike,

I have been somewhat unfair by indicting our educational system as a whole.  I attended NYC public schools, and have experienced exactly what you write about.  Students do get out of it mostly what they put in.  Most parents in poor neighborhoods (like where I grew up) actually discourage their children from learning, whether they mean to or not.  I think somehow the school system (or the welfare system, the media, or somebody they actually pay attention to) needs to focus on educating parents on the benefits of raising their children properly and on taking some responsibility for their own successes and failures.

The media always shows kids cutting school, complaining about teachers & homework, making fun of teachers, doing all kinds of stupid things that are harmful to their futures.  Never do you see the studious kid portrayed as cool or successful.

[edbikerii]

Yes, exactly!  I've always felt that as a conservative I was actually interested in helping people (teaching them, encouraging them to do better for themselves, etc.), whereas others seemed to focus on just throwing money at the poor, which actually makes them worse off, KEEPING THEM POOR.

Recently, I've begun to think that the real motivation behind welfare and basically every other government entitlement program is to KEEP THE POOR DOWN.  They lock in their votes, and keep that voting base of poor folks growing.

 Poverty is a terrible thing but there are ways to break the cycle. I'm pretty tired of the insinuation and accusations that Republicans hate the poor and would rather execute them. Would it be fair to say democrats hate anyone that has experienced financial success and want to grind them and their families into the ground (only after stealing all their money and possessions)?

[Inigo Montoya]

I will say this about the new health care.
I am not debating if it is good or bad or needed or not.
There is a number of years here to help the transition, that is good.
Also, lets look at it this way. IF this is SO bad and so many Americans are against it, it should be NO PROBLEM for republicans to get back control of the house and senate right?
When and IF that happens, lets see if republicans are TRULY concerned about this bill or not. If they are, then they will follow up on their yelling here and do all they can to remove it.
Also, to back that, in 3 years we may have a new president. If this bill is THAT bad, we WILL have a new president.

I just do not see republicans removing this law if they gain back control. I feel that they all just did posturing to appease their constituents.
just my opinion.

[edbikerii]

Was a wise-ass answer really necessary, Kit?

Yes, exactly!  I've always felt that as a conservative I was actually interested in helping people (teaching them, encouraging them to do better for themselves, etc.), whereas others seemed to focus on just throwing money at the poor, which actually makes them worse off, KEEPING THEM POOR.

Recently, I've begun to think that the real motivation behind welfare and basically every other government entitlement program is to KEEP THE POOR DOWN.  They lock in their votes, and keep that voting base of poor folks growing.

  Poverty is a terrible thing but there are ways to break the cycle. I'm pretty tired of the insinuation and accusations that Republicans hate the poor and would rather execute them. Would it be fair to say democrats hate anyone that has experienced financial success and want to grind them and their families into the ground (only after stealing all their money and possessions)?

HELL YES!!!

The best way to keep the poor down and keep the poor stupid is to give them access to affordable health care and school systems!

I agree 100%!

[Duke McDukiedook]

Kinda like a balanced budget, remember when they harped on about that #$%* forever?

And then Bush happened and... balanced budgets? We don't need no stinking balanced budgets!!   I keeed, I keed.

Look, they (politicians) are all dirty, pond scum, what do you expect?

[BobbyR]

Yes, exactly!  I've always felt that as a conservative I was actually interested in helping people (teaching them, encouraging them to do better for themselves, etc.), whereas others seemed to focus on just throwing money at the poor, which actually makes them worse off, KEEPING THEM POOR.

Recently, I've begun to think that the real motivation behind welfare and basically every other government entitlement program is to KEEP THE POOR DOWN.  They lock in their votes, and keep that voting base of poor folks growing.

 Poverty is a terrible thing but there are ways to break the cycle. I'm pretty tired of the insinuation and accusations that Republicans hate the poor and would rather execute them. Would it be fair to say democrats hate anyone that has experienced financial success and want to grind them and their families into the ground (only after stealing all their money and possessions)?

If I were asked to devise a plan to take a given population and destroy them culturally and socially, I would have come up with Welfare. After a few generations very few have been able to escape it.

[Duke McDukiedook]

I agree, give them the tools and the knowledge to get the fish.

Just giving them the fish won't help anyone.

[BobbyR]

"escape" is merely deciding "what is good enough" for yourself and/or your family.  If it's "good enough" for you to have four cars in your yard, where only one works, maybe... your kids are dropping out of public school, welfare money and a maybe-part time job is "good enough" well then that's fine for you. Get sick?  The ED is fine on someone else's bill.

Extreme poverty will often not be enough to motivate the unmotivated.  They will merely die or become more expensive for the rest of us.  

The question is "How do we motivate people, and best enable them to be able to do the best they are able?"

All kids want to grow up to be a doctor/teacher/astronaut/whatever.  Not everyone is meant to, of course, but at what point is that desire to excel crushed?  

Our plant is in the ghetto. When I am driving to work I may be the only White person other than the Cops on the street. Down in the shops, the welders, sheet metal workers, and Rail car Techs are mostly Black and Hispanic. The top welders need to be Federally certified and can make $40.00 per hour plus benefits. I know many of you weld, these folks WELD.
Many of them came from Welfare families, somehow, something moved these people to get some training and go to work. They have families, own homes and send their kids to School mostly Catholic not Public. They escaped the life and hopefully will break the cycle.

Out past our barbed wire fences and electric gates, you see the dudes out on the corners drinking coffee in the morning, and later in the day drinking out of paper bags. On those same corners I see little kids getting on School buses and it saddens me to realize that many/most of them will graduate from getting on the Bus to standing on the corner with paper bags.

I have three women in my department, all single Mothers, all were on Food Stamps and now they earn a weekly check and watch their kids like a hawk.

I am no bleeding heart Liberal, I am a pragmatist Republican. This wreckage I see on the Streets, drains our resources, makes all of us less safe, and wastes what could be a great deal of potential.  

    

[w1sa]

All societies have these individuals, to some degree. They always have and they always will. They are not the sole cause of unbearable cost to community. 

They may have families that also need support now (nothing new). Those families will grow and can/will contribute to the future. Their work and taxes will probably more than compensate for their previous individual/family 'failures', to support themselves properly.

Unless you apply the 'law of the jungle' to all levels of social behaviour and activity, then it makes sense that equitable and available health care is provided to all as an investment in future social and economic success.

Some of the examples stated in these posts describe the different affordability/availability of health care based on where you live, how much you can pay and whether you have pre-existing conditions.........Obviuosly in pursuit of the almighty buck!....well, that strikes me as uncaring, elitist, depriving of dignity, excessively judgemental (socially) and almost inhumane.
 
We of the 'developed world' are kidding ourselves if we think the title extends to culture and social justice, while we tolerate this sort of policy.

We spend collectively (sometimes wastefully) on 'Defense', to protect us ALL from the dangers with-out, why shouldn't we expect to spend collectively on equitable 'Health Care' to protect us ALL from with-in...............?

[seaweb11]

nicely put

[edbikerii]

So, what do you think the catalyst for change will be?   Welfare certainly isn't helping.  What makes you think that increasing the burden on the working class will improve the lot of the poor?

All societies have these individuals, to some degree. They always have and they always will. They are not the sole cause of unbearable cost to community. 

They may have families that also need support now (nothing new). Those families will grow and can/will contribute to the future. Their work and taxes will probably more than compensate for their previous individual/family 'failures', to support themselves properly.

Unless you apply the 'law of the jungle' to all levels of social behaviour and activity, then it makes sense that equitable and available health care is provided to all as an investment in future social and economic success.

Some of the examples stated in these posts describe the different affordability/availability of health care based on where you live, how much you can pay and whether you have pre-existing conditions.........Obviuosly in pursuit of the almighty buck!....well, that strikes me as uncaring, elitist, depriving of dignity, excessively judgemental (socially) and almost inhumane.
 
We of the 'developed world' are kidding ourselves if we think the title extends to culture and social justice, while we tolerate this sort of policy.

We spend collectively (sometimes wastefully) on 'Defense', to protect us ALL from the dangers with-out, why shouldn't we expect to spend collectively on equitable 'Health Care' to protect us ALL from with-in...............?

[Cormac]

"So, what do you think the catalyst for change will be?   Welfare certainly isn't helping.  What makes you think that increasing the burden on the working class will improve the lot of the poor?"


Imminant starvation seems to work well. Supprising how many people suddenly find that their back doesn't hurt so bad after all...

Oh, was that uncaring of me? Sorry, I've worked since I was 14. The Navy was the most cush job I ever had, and I currently work two. I save for the future, pay all my bills and always have. And periodically, I splurge and buy something for myself, like parts. Some people don't understand something called priorities. The willingly cough up for cable or dish tv, feel that a decent car and clothes are their right, and then #$%* about not having money for food or the doctor?

I've always spent $$ in this order: debt (typically none), bills, food, savings, gas/insurance, then whatever else. Amazing how fast you can go from broke to doing ok on my little fiscal "plan".

[MCRider]

"So, what do you think the catalyst for change will be?   Welfare certainly isn't helping.  What makes you think that increasing the burden on the working class will improve the lot of the poor?"


Imminant starvation seems to work well. Supprising how many people suddenly find that their back doesn't hurt so bad after all...

Oh, was that uncaring of me? Sorry, I've worked since I was 14. The Navy was the most cush job I ever had, and I currently work two. I save for the future, pay all my bills and always have. And periodically, I splurge and buy something for myself, like parts. Some people don't understand something called priorities. The willingly cough up for cable or dish tv, feel that a decent car and clothes are their right, and then #$%* about not having money for food or the doctor?

I've always spent $$ in this order: debt (typically none), bills, food, savings, gas/insurance, then whatever else. Amazing how fast you can go from broke to doing ok on my little fiscal "plan".

That's so true. I know for a fact of many of the great unwashed, uninsured who are that way by choice. Having the resources for fancier TVs and hookups than I have, 21 inch wheels, then play the "poor poor pitiful me" card for food thru a record setting food stamp program and now this health care abomination.  Whether it achieves some altruistic goal or not, its the wrong way to live.

Yours is the right way.

[Retro Rocket]

So do you put the people that have worked all their life and have been bankrupted by your insufficient health system, that now are being paid some sort of welfare, into this group as well. Simplistic views do nothing top help at all, you just better hope you never get cancer or need a transplant because you will soon see the other side of the story.
As W1sa said "We spend collectively (sometimes wastefully) on 'Defense', to protect us ALL from the dangers with-out, why shouldn't we expect to spend collectively on equitable 'Health Care' to protect us ALL from with-in...............?"

Mick

[Cormac]

Note the savings part of my little fiscal plan? I do have insurance, it just has a $3500 deductible, so I religiously put 5% of my checks in a HSA, and pray. Should I get cancer (very possible given my past life style) thems the breaks. Everybody dies sometime, and I look forward to meeting God; as its the end of this test and on to the next step. People need to learn to die gracefully, not that I wish anyone ill, but an extra year or two isn't worth bankrupting your children, or worse, someone else's children.