Author Topic: health care bill  (Read 39002 times)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #225 on: March 25, 2010, 07:04:43 PM »
Hey, look what I found:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=55553.msg598375#msg598375

These facts have already been ignored!
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Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #226 on: March 25, 2010, 07:08:31 PM »
It looks like that PDF is about equipment and supplies and not treatment costs...


Mick


I think the reference to "services" is the confusion.
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #227 on: March 25, 2010, 07:14:52 PM »
Hey, look what I found:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=55553.msg598375#msg598375

These facts have already been ignored!

Keep searching Ed, no one has a perfect system and you won't find one, what you will find is plenty of others that are a marked improvement on your system.  You also don't listen to what has been written and usually just harp on about the same things. Just hope and prey you never end up with any serious ailment Ed, yes there are people that rort the system, any system for that matter,  but there are also a huge amount of people that are purely victims of society, they do the jobs that need to be done to keep society running yet somehow people think they deserve no cover, that is a national disgrace and needs fixing..

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Offline w1sa

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #228 on: March 25, 2010, 07:20:14 PM »
Is it possible that the 'six times as much' reference applies to the total cost of national health in a year and that the taxpayer is already directly paying for some 85% of total national health care costs annually?

Either way, is someone able to clarify what percentage of national health is directly paid for by the taxpayer?

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #229 on: March 25, 2010, 07:29:45 PM »
Oh please.  Are you guys seriously doubting that government is incredibly wasteful?  Haven't any of you been to the DMV?  Been in the military?  Dealt with the Social Security Administration?  Looked at at the national budget?  Done just about ANY business whatsoever with any government agency?

Type "wheelchair" into the search box and you'll see a story about how Medicaid paid $1200 in rental fees for a $400 wheelchair because they were too stupid to pick up a telephone and ask.  Examples like this are just too numerous to count anymore.

It is commonly accepted that ONLY GOVERNMENT CAN BE SO STUPID, as nowhere else is such stupidity tolerated regularly.

This whole argument is just incredibly stupid now.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #230 on: March 25, 2010, 07:35:30 PM »
Or save yourselves the trouble of searching:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/20/healthcare.wheelchair/index.html
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Offline Retro Rocket

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #231 on: March 25, 2010, 07:42:23 PM »
Oh please.  Are you guys seriously doubting that government is incredibly wasteful?  Haven't any of you been to the DMV?  Been in the military?  Dealt with the Social Security Administration?  Looked at at the national budget?  Done just about ANY business whatsoever with any government agency?

Type "wheelchair" into the search box and you'll see a story about how Medicaid paid $1200 in rental fees for a $400 wheelchair because they were too stupid to pick up a telephone and ask.  Examples like this are just too numerous to count anymore.

It is commonly accepted that ONLY GOVERNMENT CAN BE SO STUPID, as nowhere else is such stupidity tolerated regularly.

This whole argument is just incredibly stupid now.



Thats not what i said and i actually agree, at the moment our government is giving schools money through the stimulus package, one example is a school in Brisbane is getting a new library building through this program, it is costing $800,000 plus dollars, a builder was on the news complaining  saying that he can build the exact same building for just over $200,000....incredible waste of tax payers money...

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Offline w1sa

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #232 on: March 25, 2010, 07:47:26 PM »
So, if your extend the 'wheelchair' example to all other services paid for by the government, you (the taxpayer) are being ripped-off by inefficient government and greedy profit hungry privateering leaches.

Is that a fair analogy?

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #233 on: March 25, 2010, 07:53:00 PM »
So, if your extend the 'wheelchair' example to all other services paid for by the government, you (the taxpayer) are being ripped-off by inefficient government and greedy profit hungry privateering leaches.

Is that a fair analogy?



Sure, is it any different in the great south?

 :)

Offline bikerbart

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #234 on: March 25, 2010, 07:58:42 PM »
this thread or post (whatever its called)speaks volumes of us as a society.Gee,health care for all of us,what a horrible concept.I grew up kinda poor.(I know "poor"is politically incorrect)and when I finally got out of my town and into the real world all I did was work.Most of my jobs did not have insurance.So my entire young adult life was without healthcare.When I got sick or had an accident,I went to the clinic or Emerg.This usually ended up with nonstop bills which I had no money for.Guess what,it affected my credit rating.All I have done is work my but off since I was young(started peeling potatoes in a diner at 12)and what did I get out of it???Not a damn thing.So,you people yelling about "Obamacare"Go F#@%& yourselves.Its funny that a lot of these people yelling about socialized healthcare are the ones using it.(welfare,VA etc.)I never used or abused social sevices,I was too busy working two jobs.For what,pride that I am a hard worker.Everyone should have some sort of healthcare.The past 10 years have made me ashamed,makes me forget what a great country we have(had)Also,going to war with a country that has done nothing to us is ok with you people yelling about healthcare is fine,billions upon billions spent,thousands dead,thats just peachy with you guys,but healthcare for your fellow citizens,oh no,not that.It disgusts me to no end.I am ashamed.
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Offline w1sa

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #235 on: March 25, 2010, 08:21:11 PM »
So, if your extend the 'wheelchair' example to all other services paid for by the government, you (the taxpayer) are being ripped-off by inefficient government and greedy profit hungry privateering leaches.

Is that a fair analogy?



Sure, is it any different in the great south?

 :)


Probably the only real difference is in the degrees of abuse.

We have a system very similar to yours in most respects.
Do we have private insurers..............Yes
Do we have private medical service providers.....Yes...general practitioners, surgeons, and specialists are all private providers.
 
The majority of our major hospitals are owned and administered by the government. The vast majority of operations and specialist services are provided by the private doctors and surgeons in the public hospitals.
Our private health industry is not big enough financially to really cope with the costs of large hospital infrastructure, so the taxpayer funds it.
Private hospitals are run by doctors etc. for their business and services needs to the extent they can. They then fall back on the large government hospitals for support.

Over here the government imposed acceptable pricing (for rebate purposes), theoretically acts as a brake to contain the real cost of the taxpayer funded treatments.

Gaps in rebatable amounts and the provider amounts are made up by patients, insurers, or borne by the service provider.

Most sophisticated and expensive infrastructure activity......scans x-rays..chemo.etc are billed to the government system/taxpayer.
 

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #236 on: March 25, 2010, 08:24:07 PM »
w1sa:

Do you know what Australia's  yearly cost is per taxpayer?

Offline seaweb11

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #237 on: March 25, 2010, 08:56:18 PM »
I know, another dumb Question ::)

Something I read above has me thinking about an issue we have here on our little Island regarding the cost of housing, not medical.
Very few rentals here, and the ones they can find are $$$$!

 I am not being sarcastic.
What do these people listed below do for medical coverage in the US?

The guy that works at the car wash?
Neighborhood handyman?
Dish washer?
Wood chopper?
Independent logger?
Fire wood guy?
Barber, hairdresser?
small engine repair guy?
small independent contractor?
self employed skilled shipwright?
waiters/waitresses?
Cab driver?
Lawn guy?
Part time single Mother working at a very small business?
Artist?  "I'm sure that one will bring at least one comment"

The lower income people that society can't function without?
All of these people are healthy non lazy, and make the world go round. I'm very curious?



Offline w1sa

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #238 on: March 25, 2010, 10:31:54 PM »
w1sa:

Do you know what Australia's  yearly cost is per taxpayer?

We are small compared to yourselves. We are a population of 20M. Our economy is a mere 1.3 Trillion $ annually.
But we probably share the same/similar health expectations.

For Our Current Year the National Gov's budget includes the following
Total federal taxpayer expenditure is..............338 B$...incl.deficit spending stimuli going thru the global fin turndown
Total  federal tax revenue  is.........................291 B$
of that
Total 'Individual taxpayer' income tax..............123 B$
Total  projected federal Health expense is........  51 B$...includ gov admin, national health programs and aged care accom subs etc.
of that
Total proj taxpayer funded Medical/Pharma..........23 B$

Our average full-time wage(incl all wage earnings i.e take home pay before tax) is about........ $65K
Income tax on that pay (incl Medicare levy) is about.........................................................$15K

Lower incomes pay a lesser % as tax, Higher incomes pay more e.g. 15K pays about 10%($1500), 150K pays about 50K tax. (say 30-35%)

So it depends on the way you look at it as to the average cost per taxpayer. I don't know off hand the number of individual income earners paying tax. If I assume 7.5m taxpayers (s/b close), then they are each required to pay an average $6k tax to pay for the total federal governemt Health services budget.
If you focus on the actual Medical/Pharmaceutical rebate payouts alone, the average is about 3K per taxpayer p/y


« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 10:33:27 PM by w1sa »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #239 on: March 25, 2010, 11:05:08 PM »
I know, another dumb Question ::)

Something I read above has me thinking about an issue we have here on our little Island regarding the cost of housing, not medical.
Very few rentals here, and the ones they can find are $$$$!

 I am not being sarcastic.
What do these people listed below do for medical coverage in the US?

The guy that works at the car wash?
Neighborhood handyman?
Dish washer?
Wood chopper?
Independent logger?
Fire wood guy?
Barber, hairdresser?
small engine repair guy?
small independent contractor?
self employed skilled shipwright?
waiters/waitresses?
Cab driver?
Lawn guy?
Part time single Mother working at a very small business?
Artist?  "I'm sure that one will bring at least one comment"

The lower income people that society can't function without?
All of these people are healthy non lazy, and make the world go round. I'm very curious?




In Minnesota we have a state program called Minnesota Care that provides coverage for families that live at the poverty level.  You have to meet the income and asset requirements which does limit it to people who really need it.  It's not free but they pay a reduced rate.  It's a lot of single parent low wage families, people with mental issues, etc.  I have one friend on it, a single mom with a chronic medical condition that affects here ability to work to a degree.  She does work but not full time.  The industry is really different from state to state and here it is more highly regulated with more competition than other places.  It is still expensive but better than many places I have heard about.  But we are a bunch of Libs up here so don't mind helping out our community.  Amazing how much better EVERYTHING works up here and what a pleasant place it is to live despite the weather. ;)  Must be that Canadian ethos leaking across the border mixing with our Scandinavian heritage. ;D
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 11:31:13 PM by srust58 »

Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #240 on: March 25, 2010, 11:24:58 PM »
I keep coming back to the same things:

Government has run Social Security into the ground.  If they can't run SS, how can they run medical care?

The governemtn telling you "you MUST buy this, or you are fined".....and the IRS enforcing this!  Even going so far as having your bank account information so as to garnish your wages for non-compliance....

Telling me that I should feel RESPONSIBLE to pay for others medical care.  This is akin to telling me I must pay some else's child support, or alimony.  Whatever happened to carrying your own weight??  I feel as though I should go house to house and ask for donations for something I feel I need or deserve.

Pre existing conditions.......does that mean you can go without insurance until you are sick, then go get it the day before you go to the hospital?  Does anyone beleive the insurance companies can survive in that scenario?

In short, does anyone REALLY believe that this IS NOT the first step in having single payer, all powerful governemtn control over your healthcare?

There is only so much money to go around....and only so many operations available.  In other words....who decides who gets the operation and who dosen't???

The costs forf this will be so large....how can teh President keep his promise of not raising taxes?

I'd like to know these things....not just that I am mean spirited for expecting people to take care of themselves.  Life is full of choices.  If your choice involves a career that dosen't make money.....how is that MY FAULT?

~joe


It's pretty clear you don't understand the Health Care Bill and are just parroting bumper sticker slogans and talking points.

The reason for the required buy in is so people don't just buy insurance when they get sick.  To make it work everyone has to be enrolled.  Even though the Repubs for political reasons did not vote for the Bill this is one provision that has wide support from both sides.  And who decides what operations you get now.  In many instances it is the insurance company who's first loyalty is to the stock holders and the corporate bottom line.  So that's ok with you?


Offline seaweb11

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #241 on: March 25, 2010, 11:30:07 PM »
I know, another dumb Question ::)

Something I read above has me thinking about an issue we have here on our little Island regarding the cost of housing, not medical.
Very few rentals here, and the ones they can find are $$$$!

 I am not being sarcastic.
What do these people listed below do for medical coverage in the US?

The guy that works at the car wash?
Neighborhood handyman?
Dish washer?
Wood chopper?
Independent logger?
Fire wood guy?
Barber, hairdresser?
small engine repair guy?
small independent contractor?
self employed skilled shipwright?
waiters/waitresses?
Cab driver?
Lawn guy?
Part time single Mother working at a very small business?
Artist?  "I'm sure that one will bring at least one comment"

The lower income people that society can't function without?
All of these people are healthy non lazy, and make the world go round. I'm very curious?




In Minnesota we have a state program called Minnesota Care that provides coverage for families that live at the poverty level.  You have to meet the income and asset requirements which does limit it to people who really need it.  It's not free but they pay a reduced rate.  It's a lot of single parent low wage families, people with mental issues, etc.  I have one friend on it, a single mom with a chronic medical condition that affects here ability to work to a degree.  She does work but not full time.  The industry is really different from state to state and here it is more highly regulated with with more competition than other places.  It is still expensive here but better than many places I have heard about.  But we are a bunch of Libs up here so don't mind helping out our community.  Amazing how much better EVERYTHING works up here and what a pleasant place it is to live despite the weather. ;)  Must be that Canadian ethos leaking across the border mixing with our Scandinavian heritage. ;D

I didn't say any of these people were at the poverty level, just making do.

Offline HavocTurbo

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #242 on: March 25, 2010, 11:36:29 PM »
I don't think government is stupid so much as it is underhanded for it's own selfserving purposes.

We cannot find a common ground on caring for everyday citizens, yet the congressmen/women have found common ground on their OWN healthcare. So why not provide the same level of care to the everyday citizen?

And seriously, we ALREADY PAY FOR IT(congressional coverage i mean), so why not change the name and extend it to everyone?

Oh please.  Are you guys seriously doubting that government is incredibly wasteful?  Haven't any of you been to the DMV?  Been in the military?  Dealt with the Social Security Administration?  Looked at at the national budget?  Done just about ANY business whatsoever with any government agency?

Type "wheelchair" into the search box and you'll see a story about how Medicaid paid $1200 in rental fees for a $400 wheelchair because they were too stupid to pick up a telephone and ask.  Examples like this are just too numerous to count anymore.

It is commonly accepted that ONLY GOVERNMENT CAN BE SO STUPID, as nowhere else is such stupidity tolerated regularly.

This whole argument is just incredibly stupid now.
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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #243 on: March 25, 2010, 11:46:49 PM »
I know, another dumb Question ::)

Something I read above has me thinking about an issue we have here on our little Island regarding the cost of housing, not medical.
Very few rentals here, and the ones they can find are $$$$!

 I am not being sarcastic.
What do these people listed below do for medical coverage in the US?

The guy that works at the car wash?
Neighborhood handyman?
Dish washer?
Wood chopper?
Independent logger?
Fire wood guy?
Barber, hairdresser?
small engine repair guy?
small independent contractor?
self employed skilled shipwright?
waiters/waitresses?
Cab driver?
Lawn guy?
Part time single Mother working at a very small business?
Artist?  "I'm sure that one will bring at least one comment"

The lower income people that society can't function without?
All of these people are healthy non lazy, and make the world go round. I'm very curious?




In Minnesota we have a state program called Minnesota Care that provides coverage for families that live at the poverty level.  You have to meet the income and asset requirements which does limit it to people who really need it.  It's not free but they pay a reduced rate.  It's a lot of single parent low wage families, people with mental issues, etc.  I have one friend on it, a single mom with a chronic medical condition that affects here ability to work to a degree.  She does work but not full time.  The industry is really different from state to state and here it is more highly regulated with with more competition than other places.  It is still expensive here but better than many places I have heard about.  But we are a bunch of Libs up here so don't mind helping out our community.  Amazing how much better EVERYTHING works up here and what a pleasant place it is to live despite the weather. ;)  Must be that Canadian ethos leaking across the border mixing with our Scandinavian heritage. ;D

I didn't say any of these people were at the poverty level, just making do.

I am a small independent contractor and I pay my own way as would many on that list.  Some may qualify for the program.  Being single would be harder but a family makes it easier.  Crap, I might even qualify this year from an income standpoint but they also look at assets (investment accounts, income property, etc) which I have and I would not qualify even with zero income.  Many times a spouse will have insurance through a job so they can get it that way.  My wife and I are both self employed which is a bit less common for this very reason.

This brings up one point I have not seen discussed yet.  Would having accessible, affordable, and transferable health care make it easier to quit your job and start up a small business.  It sure would have helped me and luckily I am healthy but I went a few years without coverage when I was laid off 8 years ago when I was starting out. 
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 11:56:19 PM by srust58 »

Markcb750

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #244 on: March 26, 2010, 03:21:59 AM »
w1sa:

Do you know what Australia's  yearly cost is per taxpayer?

We are small compared to yourselves. We are a population of 20M. O

Total  projected federal Health expense is........  51 B$...includ gov admin, national health programs and aged care accom subs etc.
of that
Total proj taxpayer funded Medical/Pharma..........23 B$





That makes $3700 per taxpayer for your governmental coverage, do you know what the private insurance cost is?

Do your employers pay into a Workman's Compensation system also?  

Offline Rocking-M

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #245 on: March 26, 2010, 03:45:23 AM »


Thats not what i said and i actually agree, at the moment our government is giving schools money through the stimulus package, one example is a school in Brisbane is getting a new library building through this program, it is costing $800,000 plus dollars, a builder was on the news complaining  saying that he can build the exact same building for just over $200,000....incredible waste of tax payers money...

Mick
[/quote]

not to try and thread jack, but, they actually build libraries over there with tax payer money. Heck, that would have been a gym now.
As one of the cuts here there talking about closing the library, but no cuts mentioned to the sports programs.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #246 on: March 26, 2010, 04:41:15 AM »
w1sa:

Do you know what Australia's  yearly cost is per taxpayer?

We are small compared to yourselves. We are a population of 20M. O

Total  projected federal Health expense is........  51 B$...includ gov admin, national health programs and aged care accom subs etc.
of that
Total proj taxpayer funded Medical/Pharma..........23 B$





That makes $3700 per taxpayer for your governmental coverage, do you know what the private insurance cost is?

Do your employers pay into a Workman's Compensation system also?  
  It's "worker's" now. We've got to be politcally correct you know. ::) ;) Another conservative plot I suppose. :D
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Offline demon78

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #247 on: March 26, 2010, 05:36:36 AM »
I can't believe that that some of you people don't see the benefits to universal health care, lowers costs to the people, the corporations that employ the people, and the government, it means that if you are damaged you don't become a burden on your family, or the state or owe a hospital all the money you make for the next life time which also costs them, you scream about socialized medicine but what does that mean, doe you also scream about social security, defense, customs, postal service etc, think about it, as you become bigger the government has to take care of some things because it's the only thing big enough to provide certain services it would be different if you lived in a village of a hundred or so where every one would be able to cope with all the services the village would need, but that's not the reality to day. I'll say it again Canada's health care system is not perfect but it's one hell of a lot better than what you've had, yes I paid taxes all my working life I'd rather pay taxes for the services I need than line the pockets of a parasitical corporation that makes profit the only reason for it's existence, share holders have to step back and say yes we are are also people and we don't need that last .005 of a cent to live. I'll still take time to say bless you Tommy Douglas even though I'm a total atheist you did more for people than any hundred politicians in the world.
Bill the demon.

Markcb750

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #248 on: March 26, 2010, 05:49:55 AM »
"Another conservative plot I suppose.  :D"


Never tried to be PC is that a requirement here?   ::)

Offline w1sa

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #249 on: March 26, 2010, 06:01:42 AM »
w1sa:

Do you know what Australia's  yearly cost is per taxpayer?

We are small compared to yourselves. We are a population of 20M. O

Total  projected federal Health expense is........  51 B$...includ gov admin, national health programs and aged care accom subs etc.
of that
Total proj taxpayer funded Medical/Pharma..........23 B$





That makes $3700 per taxpayer for your governmental coverage, do you know what the private insurance cost is?

Do your employers pay into a Workman's Compensation system also? 
  It's "worker's" now. We've got to be politcally correct you know. ::) ;) Another conservative plot I suppose. :D

Employer funded Workers Compensation Insurance............Yes (compulsory in all states, as far as I'm aware.)

Private Insurance Costs (variable based on cover). Typical private Medical  Insurance (comprehensive cover of hospital, doctor and extra services)for a family would be in the range of$3-4K pa.  Low end.....excess and certain gaps payable, high end.... certain gaps payable. Single cover about half rate. Some exclusions apply.

The private health insurance system works on agreed cover levels shared  between the government and the insurers. Gap costs left over are the patient's responsibilty.

The medicare system (public health insurance) also covers most of the expenses associated with patients without  private health insurance. Non emergency hospital treatments are treated according to criticality/need. Private practioner consultations are gap payable (some apply zero gap). Social security recipients can also get subsidised pharma's etc