Topic: health care bill

[Inigo Montoya]

Now doing my part and ignoring this dead thread!

[BobbyR]

Hi,

I do not live in the US, I'm a dutch citizen, and here the health care is always insured for everyone.
I thought this health care insurance was the best thing that could happen to the US, and I was amazed about the reactions.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Marxism, or any other political movement, other then humanity.
At the moment the politics in the Netherlands are becoming more extreme, with Job Cohen on the left wing, and Geert Wilders on the right wing.
Both political extremes are NOT arguing about the health care system, the health care system is untouched by both, as it is something outside politics.

Again, I'm not an American citizen, so maybe my view on the subject maybe different,

Jensen

Jensen, of course your view is different you have been living with that health care system and see it working. Here we have not and no one is sure how it is going to work out. Americans are very slow to change culturally. Yes, with technology and other things we seem very quick. I read somewhere that the US exports culture, we do not import it. It is very hard to find a "Foreign Film" even in a big city like NY. The economy is also making people very tense, we like to live well and when we can't we get angry. No where else do we pay so much in taxes and get so little for it.

[edbikerii]

Don't see anybody flying from New York to Amsterdam to get medical treatment, either.

Hi,

I do not live in the US, I'm a dutch citizen, and here the health care is always insured for everyone.
I thought this health care insurance was the best thing that could happen to the US, and I was amazed about the reactions.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Marxism, or any other political movement, other then humanity.
At the moment the politics in the Netherlands are becoming more extreme, with Job Cohen on the left wing, and Geert Wilders on the right wing.
Both political extremes are NOT arguing about the health care system, the health care system is untouched by both, as it is something outside politics.

Again, I'm not an American citizen, so maybe my view on the subject maybe different,

Jensen

Jensen, of course your view is different you have been living with that health care system and see it working. Here we have not and no one is sure how it is going to work out. Americans are very slow to change culturally. Yes, with technology and other things we seem very quick. I read somewhere that the US exports culture, we do not import it. It is very hard to find a "Foreign Film" even in a big city like NY. The economy is also making people very tense, we like to live well and when we can't we get angry. No where else do we pay so much in taxes and get so little for it.

[BobbyR]

Don't see anybody flying from New York to Amsterdam to get medical treatment, either.

Hi,

I do not live in the US, I'm a dutch citizen, and here the health care is always insured for everyone.
I thought this health care insurance was the best thing that could happen to the US, and I was amazed about the reactions.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Marxism, or any other political movement, other then humanity.
At the moment the politics in the Netherlands are becoming more extreme, with Job Cohen on the left wing, and Geert Wilders on the right wing.
Both political extremes are NOT arguing about the health care system, the health care system is untouched by both, as it is something outside politics.

Again, I'm not an American citizen, so maybe my view on the subject maybe different,

Jensen

Jensen, of course your view is different you have been living with that health care system and see it working. Here we have not and no one is sure how it is going to work out. Americans are very slow to change culturally. Yes, with technology and other things we seem very quick. I read somewhere that the US exports culture, we do not import it. It is very hard to find a "Foreign Film" even in a big city like NY. The economy is also making people very tense, we like to live well and when we can't we get angry. No where else do we pay so much in taxes and get so little for it.

If I get sick in the Netherlands I would get the same treatment. Don't be silly Ed

[traveler]

He also seems to think that countries are moving toward capitalist systems?

How did communism fail? China is still going strong. north korea is doing fine.
I have not seen Canada become capitalist. Put down the crack pipe joe. Either that or the ozone from too many shorted electrical junctions.

My point is, that prior to the new law, insurance companies were TRULY private businesses, and could conduct business in such a manner as to create a profit and make decisions that kept the business healthy.  Now under the new law, you MUST insure people, irregardless whether it is a wise BUSINESS move or not....Same as a bank loaning money.......some people are just a bad risk when you want your money back...as cruel and mean as it may sound, people open businesses to MAKE MONEY, not to provide jobs for any and everybody

Didja forget this little nugget joe?
So in a round about way, yes you did say

but according to you, some people should just get sick and die that way businesses can keep making their money and do not have to worry about risks.

Also, no one has ever paid my way. But then if I had to rely on people like you, joe, I would rather live in a swamp.
Thanks for showing us how low humans can go when they cant be bothered to help others.

North Korea is doing fine??  Those people are starving to death!

China?  They are prospering because they opened the coutnry up to trade and capitalist business concepts....something Mao, by the way would have been strongly against.  Even then, they have achieved teh success they have by intentionally devaluing their currency.

Remember, there is a difference between donations and taxation.  I simply choose to beleive that the government does NOT know what is best for me.  I DO!

~Joe

[traveler]

The banking industy failed because the government told the banks you MUST give loans to people irregardless of their ability to pay for it.  Next thing you know.....ALOT of people were in default, and the banks were going under becasue they were FORCED to give out risky loans.

Jeez, dude. Really? That's what you think happened?

No, I KNOW that is what happened.  People with an income of 40K per year have ZERO business living in a 400,000 house.  And President Clinton made it illegal to deny home loans in many of the circumstances.

The fact that someone is a minority does not mean they have the right to a 400,000 home.  ANYBODY who wants to live like that has to WORK for it.  If that means you have to live in an apartment, TOUGH.

Actually I find it comical so many of you are all charged up about paying more taxes.....because it IS coming....count on it.  by this time next year many of you will be cryin' for momma from the shafting you will be getting.

Simply put.....there isn't enough income earners and taxpayers to fund all the sugar that is being doled out.

~Joe

[Retro Rocket]

Simply put.....there isn't enough income earners and taxpayers to fund all the sugar that is being doled out.

Rubbish, our population in Australia is less than New York state and we can afford it.
You also need to read up on the financial crisis, iif you are gullible enough to think that the Government has any control over the banks then you are wrong, the crisis was fueled by greed and a lack of regulation.

Mick

[ev0lve]

And AAA rated black box credit default swaps. Don't forget those.

[traveler]

Simply put.....there isn't enough income earners and taxpayers to fund all the sugar that is being doled out.

Rubbish, our population in Australia is less than New York state and we can afford it.
You also need to read up on the financial crisis, iif you are gullible enough to think that the Government has any control over the banks then you are wrong, the crisis was fueled by greed and a lack of regulation.

Mick

Exactly my point.......it is easier to manage a smaller populace than a larger one.


Trying to offer government medical care to 300 million people is staggering....first of all, there isn't enough doctors to do it...second, doctors are NOT going to allow the government to cap their salary, and lastly over 50% of the population didn't want this, and it was rammed through anyway.  Americans are a different sort....we are accustomed to being free and independant.....much different that the sheep of france and germany.

I do believe that government can and DOES enact/enforce regulations on the banking industry. 

~Joe

[traveler]

Anyhow, I'm done with this.

[paulages]

The banking industy failed because the government told the banks you MUST give loans to people irregardless of their ability to pay for it.  Next thing you know.....ALOT of people were in default, and the banks were going under becasue they were FORCED to give out risky loans.

Jeez, dude. Really? That's what you think happened?

No, I KNOW that is what happened.  People with an income of 40K per year have ZERO business living in a 400,000 house.  And President Clinton made it illegal to deny home loans in many of the circumstances.

The fact that someone is a minority does not mean they have the right to a 400,000 home.  ANYBODY who wants to live like that has to WORK for it.  If that means you have to live in an apartment, TOUGH.

Actually I find it comical so many of you are all charged up about paying more taxes.....because it IS coming....count on it.  by this time next year many of you will be cryin' for momma from the shafting you will be getting.

Simply put.....there isn't enough income earners and taxpayers to fund all the sugar that is being doled out.

~Joe

dude... that was all about the removal of glass steagall and the merging of investment and commercial banking. even alan greenspan, the champion of free market economics issued a public "whoops" about that one. (http://www.itulip.com/greenspanissorry.htm). dogs will be dogs...machinery designed to make money will do so at any cost. you can't blame a dog for wanting to eat the cat, but you can leash it and try to train it.

yes, banks were loaning people money who should not have had any business taking out such loans, but the government wasn't the cause of this, rather its regulations were the only thing preventing it from happening until the Clinton Rubinomics era deregulated all of this... unleashing the dog.

[paulages]

Simply put.....there isn't enough income earners and taxpayers to fund all the sugar that is being doled out.

Rubbish, our population in Australia is less than New York state and we can afford it.
You also need to read up on the financial crisis, iif you are gullible enough to think that the Government has any control over the banks then you are wrong, the crisis was fueled by greed and a lack of regulation.

Mick

Exactly my point.......it is easier to manage a smaller populace than a larger one.


Trying to offer government medical care to 300 million people is staggering....first of all, there isn't enough doctors to do it...second, doctors are NOT going to allow the government to cap their salary, and lastly over 50% of the population didn't want this, and it was rammed through anyway.  Americans are a different sort....we are accustomed to being free and independant.....much different that the sheep of france and germany.

I do believe that government can and DOES enact/enforce regulations on the banking industry. 

~Joe

i'm curious: have you ever been to france or germany?

[syth82]

Seriously, the best part of this whole thread is the shrimp on the treadmill...  

That is, and hopefully this will be the last post on this thread. Say Amen and close the door.

 

[edbikerii]

Yes, Moody's had a lot to do with those AAA ratings, but remember why?   Obviously not.

Because those #$%*ty, SUB-PRIME (hey there's that word again) loans were "guaranteed" by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, based on policies set in motion by the FED in order to facilitate lending to "the poor".  That's why they were AAA rated.

And AAA rated black box credit default swaps. Don't forget those.

[edbikerii]

Bobby, your treatment regimen was most likely developed at NY Presbyterian or Memorial Sloan Kettering, the two leading centers for prostate cancer research.  Investment of capital into research, design, testing and education -- good old Capitalism -- is what enabled those doctors, researchers, and medical equipment manufacturers to save your life.  Not a bunch of mealymouthed government thieves pretending to help so they can buy other people's votes with your money.

If you get the same treatment in Amsterdam, it is because they learned it from Sloan Kettering, and bought the radiology equipment from GE.

Don't see anybody flying from New York to Amsterdam to get medical treatment, either.

Hi,

I do not live in the US, I'm a dutch citizen, and here the health care is always insured for everyone.
I thought this health care insurance was the best thing that could happen to the US, and I was amazed about the reactions.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Marxism, or any other political movement, other then humanity.
At the moment the politics in the Netherlands are becoming more extreme, with Job Cohen on the left wing, and Geert Wilders on the right wing.
Both political extremes are NOT arguing about the health care system, the health care system is untouched by both, as it is something outside politics.

Again, I'm not an American citizen, so maybe my view on the subject maybe different,

Jensen

Jensen, of course your view is different you have been living with that health care system and see it working. Here we have not and no one is sure how it is going to work out. Americans are very slow to change culturally. Yes, with technology and other things we seem very quick. I read somewhere that the US exports culture, we do not import it. It is very hard to find a "Foreign Film" even in a big city like NY. The economy is also making people very tense, we like to live well and when we can't we get angry. No where else do we pay so much in taxes and get so little for it.

If I get sick in the Netherlands I would get the same treatment. Don't be silly Ed

[Retro Rocket]

Bobby, your treatment regimen was most likely developed at NY Presbyterian or Memorial Sloan Kettering, the two leading centers for prostate cancer research.

In the US ED, you may find this hard to believe but there are other countries that are at the forefront of cancer and medical research and Australia is one of them. You need to look past the "America is best at everything" , because it clearly is not.

Mick

[supersports400]

Hi Bobby,

Yes, I think that you would get the same treatment here in the Netherlands then any other Dutch citizen. No, you can't fly to Amsterdam to get treatment, there are rules. But if you fly to Amsterdam, for a holiday, and you get ill, you will be treated, no question about that. In the past there where (and possibly still are), people who visited the Netherlands for abortion, or eutanasy. But this is more because of the (legal)possibility's, not the money involved.

However, there are getting more and more private clinic's here, mostly for plastic surgery, because plastic surgery is not insured (except in some cases). The system is meant to give a very good basic level of health care, however, if you want more, you pay more.

However, there are disadvantage of our system, for example, if you do sport a lot, and get sport injury's, there is a discussion if everyone should pay for that, especially risky sports. Same with riding a motorbike, there are people who want to exclude extreme sports and extreme hobby's from our health insurance system.

From my point of view, I like the idea of our a basic health care system, everyone is equal and has the same rights. And when thinking about "ïf you take more risks you pay more" it makes everything far to complex.

Drinking coke and eating fast food is also a risky "sport", if you start to exclude, where does it end ? you get some sort of American system.

The northern Europe country's do have the best health care system of the world, the average age of both, men and women, is this region the highest in the world,

Maybe the best clinics are in the US, but only for who can effort.

Jensen

[demon78]

Hey I.M. what are you talking about, Canada is not a marxist country and not  really a socialist country, look to yourself for managed society what with your various subsidies and tariffs so that you don't have to compete with rest of the world, isn't that managed production (socialism).
Bill the demon.

[Inigo Montoya]

Only here to answer you Bill. I know Canada is not marxist, commonly called communist. I was referencing China and N Korea for that. In the US, Canada is many times considered socialist even though, as you point out, the US has subsidies for loads of things such as farming, and that would be considered socialist. My point was that joe had no idea what he was saying about communism and socialism failing. Obviously that is not happening and given that the Canadian dollar is worth pretty darn close to the US dollar, Canada is not failing either. Of course, I don't keep track of canadian news but then I barely watch US news as so little of it is reliable.  

I think you may have just misunderstood what I was attempting to say. I read back and it does look like I call Canada communist but I assure you, I wasn't. Sometimes I think I would rather live in Canada then the US but if I move somewhere, it will be further south! Time for warmer weather!

[Caaveman82]

Bobby, your treatment regimen was most likely developed at NY Presbyterian or Memorial Sloan Kettering, the two leading centers for prostate cancer research.  Investment of capital into research, design, testing and education -- good old Capitalism -- is what enabled those doctors, researchers, and medical equipment manufacturers to save your life.  Not a bunch of mealymouthed government thieves pretending to help so they can buy other people's votes with your money.

If you get the same treatment in Amsterdam, it is because they learned it from Sloan Kettering, and bought the radiology equipment from GE.

Don't see anybody flying from New York to Amsterdam to get medical treatment, either.

Hi,

I do not live in the US, I'm a dutch citizen, and here the health care is always insured for everyone.
I thought this health care insurance was the best thing that could happen to the US, and I was amazed about the reactions.

In my opinion it has nothing to do with Marxism, or any other political movement, other then humanity.
At the moment the politics in the Netherlands are becoming more extreme, with Job Cohen on the left wing, and Geert Wilders on the right wing.
Both political extremes are NOT arguing about the health care system, the health care system is untouched by both, as it is something outside politics.

Again, I'm not an American citizen, so maybe my view on the subject maybe different,

Jensen

Jensen, of course your view is different you have been living with that health care system and see it working. Here we have not and no one is sure how it is going to work out. Americans are very slow to change culturally. Yes, with technology and other things we seem very quick. I read somewhere that the US exports culture, we do not import it. It is very hard to find a "Foreign Film" even in a big city like NY. The economy is also making people very tense, we like to live well and when we can't we get angry. No where else do we pay so much in taxes and get so little for it.

If I get sick in the Netherlands I would get the same treatment. Don't be silly Ed

Ed, I do not know if you have ever heard of a place called the Mayo Clinic, but it is located here in Rochester Minnesota and is one of the top rated hospitals in the country for a number of treatments and research. Oh yeah, every staff member has a salary cap. 

These people are doctors that want to treat people and money is not a top source of motivation.

[edbikerii]

Of course I've heard of the excellent work they do at the Mayo Clinic.

You are, however, misinformed about salary "caps":

http://www.salarylist.com/all-real-jobs-salary-at-mayo-clinic-rochester-mayo-foundation.htm

Ed, I do not know if you have ever heard of a place called the Mayo Clinic, but it is located here in Rochester Minnesota and is one of the top rated hospitals in the country for a number of treatments and research. Oh yeah, every staff member has a salary cap. 

These people are doctors that want to treat people and money is not a top source of motivation.

[Caaveman82]

Of course I've heard of the excellent work they do at the Mayo Clinic.

You are, however, misinformed about salary "caps":

http://www.salarylist.com/all-real-jobs-salary-at-mayo-clinic-rochester-mayo-foundation.htm

Ed, I do not know if you have ever heard of a place called the Mayo Clinic, but it is located here in Rochester Minnesota and is one of the top rated hospitals in the country for a number of treatments and research. Oh yeah, every staff member has a salary cap. 

These people are doctors that want to treat people and money is not a top source of motivation.

Ed, you just proved what I said. Their doctors are salaried, they do not get extra money for running unneeded tests, they do not get paid based on number of patients served and how much money that patient spends, they get a set amount of money every year no matter what. I guess salary 'cap' was not the right terminology but

[traveler]

Human being operate on incentive...whether monetary  or another form.....they also are productive based on a general feeling of fairness.

That said, if the general feling is one of...."why does he get freebies, and I get to do the work?"  It defintely affects productivity.  "For the greater good"....sounds all warm and sunny....but in reality "what's in it for me".....is much more prevelant.

Lastly, I have been to Germany....I've been all over the world....and I can tell you the USA is a spoiled country.  Had it too good for too long.....and if you take it for granted, it will go away.

I have no problem with anyone, and think Canada and Australia are wonderful places.....and I think that if their system of governing is better suited to a person, then they should immigrate there.  What I have a problem with...is Muslims immigrating, and then demanding that we change to suit THEM!

Oh, and sicne I used to actually live in Korea, and stayed within 5-10 miles of North Korea....I CAN speak with a certain level of certainty that they do NOT have it good in North Korea!

~Joe

[Caaveman82]

I have been around the world too and no one is as selfish as we are.

With that said, some people have the incentive to help others.

[HavocTurbo]

I have lived in Korea and Japan as well and I must say that it is hard to compare countries as small (physically) as they are against the USA. Regardless of how good your health system, food distribution, sewer system, water systems are.... The more people you cram in to a small space, the worse off the living conditions are going to be.

Japan makes up for it by having seriously technologically advanced systems to care for the everyday things a person needs. i.e. water, garbage, sewage, etc.

But to compare even S.Korea to say Illinois.... that is a slighted comparison, let alone applying it to N.Korea.

Here in the USA I find that most people are selfish beyond all hope of recovery. Take me for example.... out of fear that I would try to bring the wrath of lawyers upon them, the city has decided that it would be easier to give me material posessons in attempt to quell my apparent thirst for free money.

I never asked for a bike. It just showed up. I haven't filed paperwork for a suit, nor have I called anyone demanding compensation. They offered to pay for my medical bills for however long that may take (until they give me a clean bill of health) and then offered to pay for any home medical care (nurse, prescriptions, equipment etc.) that I needed.

Most americans would be chomping at the bit to call an ambulance chaser and milk the system for every penny it is worth.

How can you have a national health system that is constantly bombarded like that? We need to change morally. And until we do that.... all I see in our future as a country is fire and brimstone.

Human being operate on incentive...whether monetary  or another form.....they also are productive based on a general feeling of fairness.

That said, if the general feling is one of...."why does he get freebies, and I get to do the work?"  It defintely affects productivity.  "For the greater good"....sounds all warm and sunny....but in reality "what's in it for me".....is much more prevelant.

Lastly, I have been to Germany....I've been all over the world....and I can tell you the USA is a spoiled country.  Had it too good for too long.....and if you take it for granted, it will go away.

I have no problem with anyone, and think Canada and Australia are wonderful places.....and I think that if their system of governing is better suited to a person, then they should immigrate there.  What I have a problem with...is Muslims immigrating, and then demanding that we change to suit THEM!

Oh, and sicne I used to actually live in Korea, and stayed within 5-10 miles of North Korea....I CAN speak with a certain level of certainty that they do NOT have it good in North Korea!

~Joe