Author Topic: Tire Question - 7years mounted,full pressure, off bike, Safe to ride on?  (Read 5272 times)

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Offline Gonzowerke

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Getting the F running again after 7 years idle. I had a brand new pair of BT-45's mounted, and then set the rims aside. They still have pressure, no cracks or flat spots.

But...I'm a little leery of them.


Opinions?
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Offline MCRider

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Getting the F running again after 7 years idle. I had a brand new pair of BT-45's mounted, and then set the rims aside. They still have pressure, no cracks or flat spots.

But...I'm a little leery of them.


Opinions?
The problem has to do with shelf life. You can google tire safety, tire age, etc and prove to yourself.

Tires will outgas important chemicals over time, doesn't matter if they ever touch the pavement or not. The consensus is 5 to 7 years max life. Use them to keep the rims off the ground while working on it, but riding on them is beyond questionable, its unsafe.

I've got the same problem with my Hawk GT. Virtually new BT45s 1500 miles maybe, but 7+ years old. Really hurts.
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Offline Duke McDukiedook

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Time for new tires.  :(
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Offline Toxic

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Ya,  i was going to ask the same question.
Pretty much knew what the answer was, still sucks.

Mine have 800 miles on them but were bought 8 years ago.  The PO kept all the bills.

Offline HondaMan

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Find someone who likes to resto bikes, sell them to him. The bikes don't get ridden, but the owners always want fresh-looking tires on them. They will often pay half the new price for them!  :D
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Offline MCRider

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Find someone who likes to resto bikes, sell them to him. The bikes don't get ridden, but the owners always want fresh-looking tires on them. They will often pay half the new price for them!  :D

Good idea. Problem with my HawkGT, they are really wide, low profiile 17s. Not very retro.
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Offline camelman

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Anyone with a sidecar would love them.  You don't get to lean a sidecar setup over very much, so the tires wear quickly.  To counter that, some sidecar drivers use older tires that don't wear as fast.

In other words, don't feel bad about selling NOS tires.  Some people actually desire them.

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Offline Gonzowerke

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Oh well, it's only money after all.
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Offline Frostyboy

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Well this has come very timely!
I have just replaced rear tyre on my 550 to get rid of an absolutely wobbly Dunlop Arrowmax. I got a BT45 to match my front.
My problem now appears to be that the front is 8 yrs old now. (Haven't ridden for at least 5 yrs).
So from what you fellas are saying, now I have to buy new front.

Oh well, it's only money after all.

I'd better do it, I don't really want to test my new helmet the hard way!
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Offline Bodi

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There's been a lot of publicity lately about "old tires" being sold but I find it a bit hysterical. I agree that a 8 year old tire will not be equal to a new tire, but how much different? Sunlight exposure is the main cause of surface rubber breakdown and since they are not all cracking up I think you stored your wheels and tires indoors away from sunlight.
The old tires are not going to disintegrate or explode (unless they were really badly stored!). Structurally the tire should be almost as strong as new, the inner body plies and rim cords do not decompose like the exposed surface. The tread surface rubber will have hardened a bit from outgassing and oxidation but will be structurally sound barring extended sunlight exposure. This will reduce traction especially on wet pavement, relative to the same tire when new. That's indeed a danger but not quite in the crazy-stupid danger category. Your hard old battleaxe is probably still a better tire than the bike came with new.

Offline MCRider

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There's been a lot of publicity lately about "old tires" being sold but I find it a bit hysterical. I agree that a 8 year old tire will not be equal to a new tire, but how much different? Sunlight exposure is the main cause of surface rubber breakdown and since they are not all cracking up I think you stored your wheels and tires indoors away from sunlight.
The old tires are not going to disintegrate or explode (unless they were really badly stored!). Structurally the tire should be almost as strong as new, the inner body plies and rim cords do not decompose like the exposed surface. The tread surface rubber will have hardened a bit from outgassing and oxidation but will be structurally sound barring extended sunlight exposure. This will reduce traction especially on wet pavement, relative to the same tire when new. That's indeed a danger but not quite in the crazy-stupid danger category. Your hard old battleaxe is probably still a better tire than the bike came with new.

You are not entirely wrong, but you're not entirley right either. Outgassing occurs in the dark, sunlight will accelerate it. Outgassing will have ocurred in the absence of surface cracks.

If a hard tread decreases panic stop efficiency by 20% is that safe? Is that something you can tell someone else to accept as safe?

I would not choose to ride with the tires that it came with new even if that was a choice, why would I choose to ride with aged modern tires?

To each their own. I repeat to encourage all to Google "old tire safety" and such phrases to learn enough to make their own choice.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:47:10 AM by MCRider »
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Offline cb650

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Ozone isnt good on them either so if they have been around electric motors might take that into consideration.  I did run a old Goodyear AT when I first put the 360 on the road. Only for a week or so just to check the sizing.
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Offline Grnrngr

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Are they tubed or tubeless? Much greater risk of catastrophic failure with a tubeless tire. A tube tire you can pretty much run into the cords regardless of age, but that's not recommended...personally, I'd run them, with the understanding and awareness that they might not be as "strong" as a new tire, probably wouldn't be as hard on them as I'd like. New tires can have defects as well, and sharp rocks/nails/misc. road debris don't care how old your tire is. On the other hand,  ;D  if it's just a back tire, I might be tempted to just do burnouts all day until the tread is gone....
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Offline madmtnmotors

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I take my old tires to the burn out pit... turns out it's more fun than than I imagined! Smoke'em till they pop.
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Offline TwoTired

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I also believe there is a lot of hysteria about older tires.  Certainly every tire deteriorates once it is manufactured.
 But replacing a tire eight years old because of age alone, sounds like advice coming from a tire salesmen, asking to move money from your pocket to theirs.

OK, the old tire is not as good as new.  So, your H rated tire is no longer guaranteed for 130 MPH.  Better keep it below 120.

Stopping power?  Road surface variations account for far more than 20% of maximum stopping capacity, imo.

And, as you wear off the outer surface, you expose softer rubber under the aged skin.  So, just like when the tire was new, don't ask for max traction until some wear has occurred.  And, don't use an old tire for racing on the track.  If you are a canyon carver scraping foot pegs at every opportunity, get new tires.

If you have to have the absolute best panic stop capability at all times, then replace your tires yearly, and make sure the tires you've just purchased were manufactured last week.

If you want to be perfectly safe, don't get on a motorcycle.


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Offline MCRider

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I also believe there is a lot of hysteria about older tires.  Certainly every tire deteriorates once it is manufactured.
 But replacing a tire eight years old because of age alone, sounds like advice coming from a tire salesmen, asking to move money from your pocket to theirs.

OK, the old tire is not as good as new.  So, your H rated tire is no longer guaranteed for 130 MPH.  Better keep it below 120.

Stopping power?  Road surface variations account for far more than 20% of maximum stopping capacity, imo.

And, as you wear off the outer surface, you expose softer rubber under the aged skin.  So, just like when the tire was new, don't ask for max traction until some wear has occurred.  And, don't use an old tire for racing on the track.  If you are a canyon carver scraping foot pegs at every opportunity, get new tires.

If you have to have the absolute best panic stop capability at all times, then replace your tires yearly, and make sure the tires you've just purchased were manufactured last week.

If you want to be perfectly safe, don't get on a motorcycle.

NHSTA data = 80% of tire related complaints are on tires over 6 years old.

The outgassing of chemicals loosens the bonds between plys and treads. The damage is done internally, from the inside and is not apparent.

Road variations are a constant over which we have no choice. Running an aged tire is a choice.

Your choice.

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"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline TwoTired

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I also believe there is a lot of hysteria about older tires.  Certainly every tire deteriorates once it is manufactured.
 But replacing a tire eight years old because of age alone, sounds like advice coming from a tire salesmen, asking to move money from your pocket to theirs.

OK, the old tire is not as good as new.  So, your H rated tire is no longer guaranteed for 130 MPH.  Better keep it below 120.

Stopping power?  Road surface variations account for far more than 20% of maximum stopping capacity, imo.

And, as you wear off the outer surface, you expose softer rubber under the aged skin.  So, just like when the tire was new, don't ask for max traction until some wear has occurred.  And, don't use an old tire for racing on the track.  If you are a canyon carver scraping foot pegs at every opportunity, get new tires.

If you have to have the absolute best panic stop capability at all times, then replace your tires yearly, and make sure the tires you've just purchased were manufactured last week.

If you want to be perfectly safe, don't get on a motorcycle.

NHSTA data = 80% of tire related complaints are on tires over 6 years old.
What, exactly, does this stat have to do with safe motorcycle tires?
What were the complaints?  Failure, loss of traction, dull appearance, worn out tread?  (Oh, the tires were old, that must be why I had the accident while talking on the cell phone and driving 40 over the speed limit, on a winding road.)
How many actual complaints were there, and out of what population base?  An 80 out of 100 report is 80% but in a population base of millions is insignificant.  And certainly if the report stats were selected from mountainous terrain areas vs, flat lands, the stats just *might* be different?

The outgassing of chemicals loosens the bonds between plys and treads. The damage is done internally, from the inside and is not apparent.
Yes and it begins happening immediately after manufacture.  How old you your tires?  And, how can you put up with whatever degradation that has occurred so far?

Road variations are a constant over which we have no choice.
You don't have a choice over which roads you travel, how fast you travel, and how much you demand of your tires?
Or do you mean all constants are variables.  And, you still want to solve the equation by throwing money at it?

Running an aged tire is a choice.
Your choice.
My choice, not your choice.
It is also a choice based on economics vs, required performance.

You've made your recommendation, I read it.  As have others.
Others can choose which recommendation better suits them.  Some are actually capable of making their own judgments.

I think this cabin fever thing is getting too severe.  Gonna have to walk away from the forums for a while.

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Offline Rosinante

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FWIW, I drive cars competitively.  In my perception (well, it's not just my perception) the importance of tires cannot possibly be overstated.  Aside from driving skill, the variable that most heavily accounts for lap times is rubber.  The difference between two well-reviewed brand new sets of street tires can be huge, depending on the particular tire design and rubber compound.  Let me put it another way.......Guys spend thousands and thousands of dollars upgrading engines, transmissions, suspensions, brakes, etc., and EVERY ONE OF THOSE GO-FAST PARTS DOES ITS WORK VIA THE CONTACT PATCH.

Now, if tires are this important for performance cars, consider their importance on two-wheeled vehicles.
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Offline Inigo Montoya

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Quote
The difference between two well-reviewed brand new sets of street tires can be huge, depending on the particular tire design and rubber compound.
Yes and everything you stated is on the track. A track is not a street.You just do not encounter all the variables on a track that you do on a street.

Also, a tire that might be good with one particular suspension set up might suck with a different and the supposedly poor one might suddenly shine like a diamond.
A person on the street has to take all factor into consideration.
Not only that, but riding style is also important. Why worry about having the stickiest tire when you will never use it, and before you mention anything about braking, cornering performance is completely different from braking performance.

As amazing as it would be to tt, I have to put the nod to him here. I think people get too uptight about tire age sometimes.

Offline BLUE71TURBO

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Brand new !  Sitting for 7 years ?  RUN THEM !!  Hell the dunlops on my turbo are dated 1983 !  No problems.
The rear is getting close to being changed though.   ;D
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wdhewson

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Good thread guys. 

It would be instructive to hear from somebody who knows about the progress in tire technology over the last 25 years, and present sate of the technology. 

One of the largest manufacturer's of butyl and halobutyl rubber is about 3 miles from my workplace, so my entire community is loaded with rubber chemists.  It is these butyl rubbers that chiefly go into the gas impermeable membrane lining the tire so air does not leak out and water vapor does not reach the steel belts rusting them.

I run lots of older tires without qualms, but I'm a survival oriented street rider, and I believe that I can tell the difference between comestic tire issues and structural tire damage.  I'm also a profound cheapskate and don't like to throw away a tire before its full service has been realized.  This means I inspect my tires very thoroughly and very frequently, and not just the bike's tires.

By the way what is the gas that is claimed to be outgassing from the tire interior?

Offline MCRider

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Good thread guys. 

It would be instructive to hear from somebody who knows about the progress in tire technology over the last 25 years, and present sate of the technology. 

One of the largest manufacturer's of butyl and halobutyl rubber is about 3 miles from my workplace, so my entire community is loaded with rubber chemists.  It is these butyl rubbers that chiefly go into the gas impermeable membrane lining the tire so air does not leak out and water vapor does not reach the steel belts rusting them.

I run lots of older tires without qualms, but I'm a survival oriented street rider, and I believe that I can tell the difference between comestic tire issues and structural tire damage.  I'm also a profound cheapskate and don't like to throw away a tire before its full service has been realized.  This means I inspect my tires very thoroughly and very frequently, and not just the bike's tires.

By the way what is the gas that is claimed to be outgassing from the tire interior?
First, the damage from age is not noticeable to visual inspection.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4988518&page=1

http://www.tiresnotes.com/car-tires/spare-tire-safety-warning-62.php

Still looking for the answer to your question as to what chemical is outgassing. I've run across sulfer which is used for softness and polymers which are used for bonding the plies together. But I want a concise discussion of it.
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Offline MCRider

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Suffice it to say, its an age issue. Heat and oxygen do the damage, hard to avoid. And since the article(s) all refer to tires that have little tread wear, its not heat from driving though that would be worse, but ambient heat. And oxygen well.

http://classactionblog.mdpcelaw.com/tags/old-tires/

While I mentioned the lack of traction from a hard carcass, multi articles talk about tires that simply come-apart with no warning.

I look into lots of these issues as I'm an internet junkie. One thing I always look for are contra arguments. On this issue I've found none. The only give is that some say 6 years, some say 6 to 10. None say its a hoax, or a ruse by tire salesmen, or its anything other than dangerous.

Yes motorcycles are inherently dangerous. So we choose our poison. How dangerous do you wnat your MC to be?
Ride Safe:
Ron
1988 NT650 HawkGT;  1978 CB400 Hawk;  1975 CB750F -Free Bird; 1968 CB77 Super Hawk -Ticker;  Phaedrus 1972 CB750K2- Build Thread
"Sometimes the light's all shining on me, other times I can barely see, lately it appears to me, what a long, strange trip its been."

Offline Frostyboy

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I think this cabin fever thing is getting too severe.  Gonna have to walk away from the forums for a while.

Please don't. I always look forward to your posts.

By the way, my front has been on the ground deflated, on the side stand for 5 years. I'm going to replace it for peace of mind.
Anyway, that'll give me 2 newies so I can start from scratch.

[Edit (without prejudice)] Btw, I've recently had two tyres on my Hi-lux explode on the highway in two separate incidents. Plenty of tread, no impact damage, but the tread has let go from the case, resulting in a huge bubble which popped just as I came to a very bumpy stop.
The thing about both of these tyres in common is that they were both over ten years old. I'm not going to chance the same thing when I've only got one front wheel on my bike. My choice.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 06:57:04 PM by Frostyboy »
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wdhewson

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Hi:

My faith in news releases has ever been high.  Any time I've compared my first hand involvement and the following news story, the technical resemblance is often a great source of humor for us.  It's a bit unkind, but we laugh at the reporters.  

As an example, does NASA build its engines from the information presented in the news?  Scholars will rarely quote a newspaper story, except for history or politics, and such things are usually open to wide interpretation compared to engineering, physical, thermodynamic, or chemical principles which are comparatively steadfast.

As for the "visual damage" don't underestimate the trained eye.  Kind of like the medical doctor, but the tire is the patient.  For example what would be the diagnosis of of a white waxy bloom on the tire carcass?  What going on?  Is it dangerous or safe?  Thanks, Don