Author Topic: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus? internationl avail ?  (Read 3954 times)

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Offline faux fiddy

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I opened up a 350f motor tonight. It was like working with something water-cooled, dribbling all over the floor. Pudding like gelatin sludge in the cyliders, settled on the piston, like a ford head gasket, etc.

This motor will probably end up running. My friend who wants one is going to make it run if I don't. I would get it roling over and do a top end. He wants to split it and make it new/ modified.

We discussed piston skirts, bore sizes and crank ratios and whether or not the similar xr 80 which I used a wrist pin from could swap out lighter pistons with smaller skirts.

He said start a thread, hopefully some techs will post, but what swaps? 175 overbores. cb 200's , xr 80.s etc? What are the differences and what are the economical, available to get, and what are the "WWJD" screaming for jesus race mods?

Probably economics and availability will be priority, but what are the swaps  from other bikes and what are the crank ratio considerations? Bores are going to need some honing over  and you can't get 350 oversized rings that I know of without congressional scale  stimulus money.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2010, 10:23:00 PM by poor boi »
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Offline camelman

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2010, 11:34:47 PM »
Any overbore piston is going to start with boring the cylinders.  Expect $60/hole for that and $50/piston.  Instead of doing that, why don't you clean and hone the cylinders first to see if they are usable.  If not, then report back.  If they are, then send the head to MRIECK to get it ported, buy an MC Again exhaust from the 400 store, have the cam reground with 2 degrees more dwell on the exhaust and 3 or 4 degrees more dwell on the intake, and have this guy (http://www.denoonsp.com/) bore out your carbs.  Get the appropriate jets afterwards, and that thing is going to scream.

Suspension and brakes are fun to improve, but I have a feeling you want power first.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2010, 11:44:57 PM »
The overbore is taken care of. He was an award winner from his vo-tec about 30+ years ago and has worked on the same Hitachi cnc machine since he graduated , working for the same company. It's not a discussion about that. Boring is taken care of, and can be done for what fits and is available.

What is available and what crosses over to fit the 350 from other bikes, 200's 175's 80's and crank ratio's. I figure the 350 could use some that have smaler skirts compared to the 400 considering stroke differences.
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Offline camelman

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2010, 11:47:49 PM »
Not sure what else fits.  I'm pretty sure you cannot run the 400f pistons without using the 400f jugs.  That necessitates a 400F cylinder head too.
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Offline faux fiddy

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2010, 12:38:14 AM »
I like the screamin' mods, an I have read the threads on 'just get a 400.' But this is what we got on the shop floor and in the way, and not undesireable in itself just  because it's not the best thing to start with, but I know who is doing it and he's watched over and helped  my project, and it will replace his 200 as the 'round town ' bike. There seems to be plenty of metal on the sleeves of this  350, I have heard of threads where people  say leaving .045 of the sleeves is okay.

Probably this thing is not going to clean up for a stock piston at all. I will post pics of it once they get e-mailed to me, but it is not pretty, rings will be fused to the cylinder walls.

Ilike the idea of the xr-80 pistons as they will be lighter. I haven't measured for overbore, but if there was a place to get diameters of the different models, and overbores, and compare it to what is available and most economical, that is the way we would probably go with it. If it helps performance (as increase in dispalcement will likely do), so be it.


Leaving as much sleeve material as possible for the pistons stock available, economicly are the way we will probably take it.














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Offline mlinder

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2010, 07:53:07 AM »
The sleeves are just big enough to bore out for the stock 400 pistons. I'd go with those. (I am going with those, actually...)
No.


Offline wingman

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2010, 08:28:41 AM »
when I was in this situation a couple of months ago, I found a thread (via search, sorry don't mean to be rude) where I gentleman had bored his 350f for 400f pistons and IIRC upgraded the cam chain.  The mods were detailed under a high mileage thread.  I ended up sticking with my 350f pistons and stock rings.

Wait! I remember the formatting of the guy's post was funky, so I saved the post and just reformatted it for easier reading.  Here it is:

I posted some history on another thread but can't remember where. Where? where? Oh where was I?  Bought the machine new in 1972 for commuting as was tired of my 2 stroke Kwacker smoking & loading up in low speed traffic.  The Kwacker was great for canyon thrashing but lousy for low speed commuting.  The 350F was nice for its intended work but rather anemic in our mountainous locale.

At about a couple of years old & maybe 25,000 miles or so the engine locked up, in a turn of course.  Only minor damage to either of us but upon taking the engine apart I found the primary link belt chain had started to come apart due to defective link pivots & jammed.  I was stamped "Hyvo" & Made in USA!  the replacement was Japanese & has served since without problems.  Since I had the motor apart anyway & oil was leaking from the head joint some experamenting was done.

I researched interchangability with other Honda fours & found that the crankshaft, rods & wristpins are in common with the 400F, as are the camshaft, valves & rocker box.  Cases, cylinder. pistons & head are different.  I measured 350F cylinder liners & compared with 400F pistons.

If bored to maximum over bore of the 400F pistons the engine would yield 425cc.  The original bore was 47mm & the maximum would be 52mm.  The large bore make the cyclinders thin at the bottom but I compared with my BSA B50MX, (500cc scrambler), with the 545cc kit & found it to be about the same.  The BSA engine gave no problems in open desert scrambles except being difficult to start, at least for me.  I turned the outer crowns of the pistons to prevent contact with the stock head.  Replaced all the gaskets, etc & several rocker arms due to flaking of the hard surfacing of the pads.  It looked like hard chrome facing.  Was astonished at the increase in low end torque & geared the bike to reduce the RPM at 70MPH from the original 7,000 to 6,000, about the same as a 400F.  Another 25,000  miles or so & a lot of oil leaking from the head again due to the rubber seals around the oil restrictors sqaushing into the overlarge hole in the head gasket.  Made up supporting rings surrounding the seals to confine them & they now hold up for many 10's of thousands of miles without leaking.  Also more of the rocker arms were damaged & some cam wear evident.  Having the head off again gave the opportunity for more enging development.

I replaced the trimmed pistons with unmodified new ones & chamfered the edges of the combustion chambers to match the piston profile, which yielded a perimeter squish band similar to more modern design.  While the heads externally had the smooth appearance of die casting the ports obviously were cast using sand cores as they were all rough & irregular.  Machining marks in the ports showed that they had been milled a short distance at both ends but nothing touched deeper.  Using a porting tool, riffle files, coarse & medium abrasive strips & a lot of hard work I blended the contours & surfaces inside but did not change the shape or size.  The improved engine ran better but was restricted with the original exhaust & air filter.  E

xperamented with various 4-2 systems but found the 400F pipe & a large  unrestricted muffler gave the best all around results.  Replaced the stock, restrictive air filter material with  Uni-Filter foam cut from bulk stock.  Naturally, all this made the carburation lean but upping the main jets cured that but at a cost of about 10MPG.  Had to upgrade the clutch to a Barnett 400F racing unit as the 350 could not hold the power.  The change is astounding!  On a steep grade with a headwind the original motor could not pull top gear.  Now with taller gearing it pulls the same grades at part throttle & cruises comfortably at 80MPH although top speed has only increased a few, from 92 to 98 but I have seen 100 on the clock on occasion.  The big change is in widening the power band.  It will pull full throttle from 25MPH in top with modest acceleration 'til 5,000 when the pull is strong & gets better with the revs up to 11,000.  That's a useful power band greater than 2 octaves!  No, it can't keep up with my 750 Bonneville but the performance compares well with my G12CSR but is more reliable.  Since then I've rebuilt the starter solenoid switch a couple of times & replaced the handlebar controls.  Replaced the cam chain twice using the rivet on link from the CB450 twin motor.  Replaced cam chain tension blade & guide twice.  Recently  a top ring shattered taking out the piston & liner too so replaced all that.  Replace the oil pressure sender to many times to count but no other major parts & has never left me stranded although my buddies think I'm a maniac.  I tell them the truth:  I learned to ride in Germany & ride like any European & they consider the pace as fast cruising.
Long & wordy, but we are talking 33 years & almost 200,000 miles here with a lot of experiences.
Cheers, Don Pscycle Madden.
1972 CB350F - Who needs TV?  I have a motorcycle in my living room! http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67528.0

Offline faux fiddy

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Re: 350f piston swaps- Any '70's Honda Tech's or garage gurus?
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2010, 02:43:10 PM »
Bump.

I'll have to look a little harder through the old threads, thanks wingman.

I figure there are more options out there with all the jincheng honda copy stuff out there. It just takes researching and maybe little or no modification.

Here's something I found, but no exact specs.

http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/grtauto/product-detailIYmQneJroxXV/China-Piston.html
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Offline faux fiddy

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Bump..

WHat about the stuff yuh just can get here .. or can you?

Weisco 52mm $Originally Priced: $108.99
Closeout Price: $87.19
Low Price Guarantee
http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp;jsessionid=X0M3A4TBG3C1DLA0WTISM4VMDK0OWIV0?skuId=&store=Outlet&catId=110&productId=p4885m05200&leafCatId=&mmyId=

NEW REPLACEMENT PISTON. l (12 brittish pound) no rings included
Non original part suitable for Honda G100 engines.
Additional information – 52mm piston


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/PISTON-COMPATIBLE-FOR-HONDA-G100-BELLE-52MM_W0QQitemZ270535156041QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Industrial_Tools_Construction_Tools_ET?hash=item3efd26e149

What is 12 brit pounds? 25- 30 bucks? Is there  difference? Stack heighth? wrist pins? ANybody? Lists out there? CHinese direct/ cheaper by the dozen?

Anybody meltin' their beer cans & forging  yet?



I  got some other sties but I'm going to bump it again with them  later...

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Offline faux fiddy

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Bump.  Here's some that are in the neighborhood of 50 mm bore and have a 14 mm wrist pin, $24.99  w/ wrist pin & rings.  There are a few out there for 90's and 100's with this configuration.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-S90-CL90-ST90-CT90-90-CC-0-25-OVER-PISTON-KIT_W0QQitemZ280472081886QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item414d7055de

Anyone used these?  We can machine skirts or shave the tops, and bore the sleeves no prob.

Anyone done it or had the two side by side?
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Offline faux fiddy

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Bump.

Okay, Hondaman or two tired or one of you guys that might have seen the two parts side by side in in your shop experiences. Give me a reprisal.

Cheap 50mm pistons for cl/sl/etc 90's are 50 mm, and should have a 14mm wrist pin. My bet is they are about the sam heighth from wrist pin to top of the piston or can be easily machined to fit.

So 50 mm bores on a 350f. Please show up and tell me to quit spamming the website with these crazy ideas of using the econimical, available stuff, being a bane on society with my concerns of economy over weisco "WWJD" mods.

Or say, yeah, I think that can be done, and many people would like to do this type of mod for their barnfind/smoking runners/ and economical refreshening of worn out love affairs with their 350f's.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/HONDA-S90-CL90-ST90-CT90-90-CC-0-25-OVER-PISTON-KIT_W0QQitemZ280472081886QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotorcycles_Parts_Accessories?hash=item414d7055de

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Offline faux fiddy

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oops, I'm looking for a 13 mm wrist pin piston..
?(!)

What is a Brittish pound in dollars?

Anything?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 12:19:18 AM by poor boi »
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Offline faux fiddy

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Bump.

Okay, here's the 350f 47mm +oversizes  and a cl90  50mm +oversizes. The differences I see are that the clip has a notch that is straight down on the 350 and horizontal on the cl.  I'm waiting for measurements.

Is there any reason not to trim up the skirts if necessesary and run these in a bored out 350?






« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 04:11:04 AM by poor boi »
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Offline 754

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Did you compare to a pic of a 350 piston?

 I am not sure why you assume someone on here has to know, 90%+ of us have never seen a 350 F piston, much less held it beside another..

 Sometimes you have to wait more that a day and a half for HTF info, or be the first one & do all the legwork yourself... not trying to be discouraging, trying to be helpful..
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Offline bryanj

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The G100 is a low reving industrial engine used on domestic type cement mixers so i wouldnt use it in a bike engine
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

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Offline faux fiddy

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Did you compare to a pic of a 350 piston?

 I am not sure why you assume someone on here has to know, 90%+ of us have never seen a 350 F piston, much less held it beside another..

 Sometimes you have to wait more that a day and a half for HTF info, or be the first one & do all the legwork yourself... not trying to be discouraging, trying to be helpful..

Hey thanks, you guys, sorry if I seem a bit impatient. This motor is not going to run this week, and it's not like a between races rebuild hurry. I guess this 350 is just not in everyone's collection, and people doing the swaps and mods are using a 550-to 750 to start with.


Roger that on the cement mixer/ mower. too. All I knew when I posted that is it was a 50mm bore. And roger doing all the legwork. I think there are probably a lot of people who would like to see some sort of economical kit for these put together as there must be many still in barns or out to pasture just waiting for a chance to go down the road again.

The ct piston at standard bore of 50 mm gives you a 392cc which is a nice little displacement boost on the cheap compared to wi$eco.

Thanks for the replies.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:38:36 PM by poor boi »
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Offline faux fiddy

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Here is some encouragement....

http://www.dansmc.com/pistons.htm

Something to remember, if you are working on an old bike and are having trouble finding a piston. As long as the wrist pin diameter is the same and you can bore the cyl to fit it. Almost any piston will work. You might have to cut the piston skirt down or drill big ports in it. You might have to grind the piston head to fit the combustion chamber or grind inside the skirt to make it the right weight, but with some imagination you can make it fit and it will work.

For example, in High School I used to take a Honda 175cc twin cylinder piston and make it work in my CT-90 engine. I would bore the cylinder out because the 175 piston (52mm) was bigger in diameter then the 90cc piston (50mm). It also had a much higher piston crown. I would put the valves in the cylinder head and then lay a piece of carbon paper on it with the carbon toward the piston. I then pressed the top of the piston into the combustion chamber and wiggled it about. The spots on the piston from the carbon paper are the high spots. I then took a hand file and filed off the carbon marks, moved the carbon paper around, rub the piston again, and file some more ! I would mark and file until no marks showed up. I would then file just a bit more. I then assembled the engine with a small piece of clay on the piston. Turn the engine over and then measure the thickness of the clay. That told me how much clearance there was between the piston and the cylinder head. You need about .040" of an inch clearance. My 90 was stroked so I had to cut down the piston skirt too. The wrist pin was the same diameter as the 90 so I was in ! Why did I do all this when CT-90 pistons are easy to get ? Well, it gave me a measured 13.8 to 1 compression ratio. As long as I could high octaine gas I could fly ! The point is, if you can't find the right piston, lots of times, you can make another one fit !


« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 02:33:12 PM by poor boi »
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Offline turboguzzi

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xl100 are 53mm and 14m pin if it helps. CT90 are 50mm 14mm pin if you dont want to push your luck with the sleeves

TG

Offline mlinder

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I have been told that 51mm is the serviceable limit for the 350f's stock sleeves.
It may or may not be true, but it's what some experienced racers have said.
No.


Offline faux fiddy

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xl100 are 53mm and 14m pin if it helps. CT90 are 50mm 14mm pin if you dont want to push your luck with the sleeves

TG

I realize I my be looking for a 13mm wristpin configuration which means xr 80 or something like that.

I thought the ct had 13?

I think the 350f and 400f have 13's. I am hoping to have the thing apart and do some side by side looking at a ct cb and xr tonight.
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Offline bryanj

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Go to:-

http://www.motogrid.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/parts.aspx


Type in the part number of the piston circlip (94601-13000) on the parts look up part (RH side of page link) model Honda and it will give you 17 pages!!! of honda models that that part is used in.

From the part number its 13mm by the way

I used the clip number rather than the pin number as bigger bores may have longer pins with a different number
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 09:25:03 AM by bryanj »
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