Author Topic: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs  (Read 6469 times)

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Offline camelman

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porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« on: March 24, 2010, 06:48:37 PM »
Please read all three steps.  I'm looking for a mild power improvement here as well as smoother engine operation throughout the rpm range.

Step one finally complete:
1) clean and open intake and exhaust ports, then match intake rubbers to intake port (CB350F)
2) set up clear rubber tubes on yard stick, build box to flow all four cylinders through the jug at the same time, then compare vacuum in each cylinder
3) modify low flow cylinders as needed

Step one worked out really well.  I removed a lot of material from above the valves, throughout the ports, and all of the casting slag.  I did this for the exhaust and intake both.  I brought the intake and exhaust (separate flow tests) vacuum within 10% when I was finished - really more like 5%.  I didn't do a baseline measurement, but from what I saw, the vacuum difference was 35% when I started... if not more... much more.  Those ports are not even close to matched from the factory.  I'll be doing another head here shortly which will go up on eBay.  Keep your eyes peeled.

Step two in planning:
1) deck 10 mil off the head to raise CR from 9.3 to 9.76
2) I want to raise the CR, but leave enough meat in case I have to mill it again in the future
3) any comments on this?

Step three - comments please:
1) I noticed that the spark plugs do not reach into the cylinders very well.  Three of my plugs are shrouded within the threaded holes.  I doubt this is good for combustion, so I want to move then further into the compression chamber.
2) I am considering milling the spark plug holes to allow the plugs to screw further into the chambers.
3) Any suggestions or comments on doing this?

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2010, 07:13:15 PM »
For the plugs, I would measure the clearance from piston to plug with the current decking done. If you got room, then a longer plug might be ok. Only issue might be the plug tip getting hotter with being closer the the action so to speak.

Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2010, 07:54:49 PM »
Can you mix and match plugs with different lengths?  The threaded portion of my spark plug holes is the issue.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline Inigo Montoya

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2010, 07:11:51 AM »
If the thread is the same, probably. I would not be surprised if some racers have not used certain plugs on certain cylinders. I doubt we would see any benefit but who knows.

Offline Doctor_D

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2010, 07:38:32 AM »
"Indexing shims" are used to make each plug sit at a uniform depth with the electrode facing in the proper direction.
https://www.advance-auto.com/english/youcan/asp/pht/pht20001001sp.asp

And +1 to making sure to check you plug to piston clearance if you remove material to seat the plugs more deeply.
Take care,
David
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2010, 08:06:48 AM »
Thanks for the info guys.  My plugs are so far recessed (at least 5mm away from the surface of the combustion chamber) that I won't have an issue with piston clearance for a while.

Anyone else want to weigh in who has tried this?

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline kslrr

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2010, 08:19:34 AM »
I'm not weighing in yet, just listening since I have a 350F that I want to do some head work on.  I was originally thinking of sending my head to TTR400 where for just over $1,000 they will do everything that can be done.  But now I'm wondering if I could do most of the work myself.
Now  1972 CB350FX (experimental v2.0)
        1981 CB650c Custom with '79 engine (wifes)
        1981 CB650 engine
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2010, 01:29:23 PM »
I would have preferred sending my head out for work, but I'm completely and totally flat broke.  Porting the head was much easier than I thought (just do your research first), and I was able to balance the cylinders with the flow bench device I set up.

I am really interested in the recessed spark plug issue though.  I studied flame propagation in internal combustion engines in school, and know for a fact that my cylinders are not set up well with the recessed spark plugs (pretty obvious to everyone I bet).  I am sure I will get a better burn, performance, and economy by getting the flame point down into the combustion chamber.  Just not sure the best way to do it.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2010, 01:46:01 PM »
Suggest you move the plugs inward before decking............and 10ml is a LOT!  Moving the plugs inward will by itself increase compression.  Yes, it is common for high-performance motors to have specific plugs matched to the cylinder. Usually the center bores run a little hotter. In your case, you may end up with more than a 5% variation between cylinders for compression.
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2010, 02:58:34 PM »
Old Scrambler,

How do you suggest I move the spark plugs inward?  The two options I see are to either remove material from the top of the spark plug hole so that the electrode moves closer to the piston, or to use a spark plug with a longer threaded portion.  However, I haven't seen spark plugs with longer threaded portions.

C-man
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline scottly

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2010, 06:44:04 PM »
Old Scrambler,

How do you suggest I move the spark plugs inward?  The two options I see are to either remove material from the top of the spark plug hole so that the electrode moves closer to the piston, or to use a spark plug with a longer threaded portion.  However, I haven't seen spark plugs with longer threaded portions.

C-man

Just how far are the plugs recessed?

Actually, I'm a bit more interested in your home-brew flow-bench.....
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Offline MRieck

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2010, 07:48:54 PM »
Thanks for the info guys.  My plugs are so far recessed (at least 5mm away from the surface of the combustion chamber) that I won't have an issue with piston clearance for a while.

Anyone else want to weigh in who has tried this?

Camelman
5mm is .200. A you sure about that?
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Offline oldbiker

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2010, 01:54:15 AM »
Remember that they leave the plugs SLIGHTLY recessed for a reason. If the plugs protrude enough to show threads they can carbon up und next time you remove them you can damage the alloy of the head. I have seen a head where the thread was completely stripped out of the head because of hardened carbon on the plug.

Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2010, 09:13:31 AM »
I haven't done a good job explaining this.  Here are some pics.  You can see in the second pic that the spark plug on the left is threaded all the way to the end of the hole and the electrode sticks out into the combustion chamber.  The other three spark plugs are recessed into their holes to varrying degrees with the worst being about 5 mm further back into its hole than the first one I mentioned.

I would like to have the recessed spark plugs stick out into the combustion chamber further instead of being shrouded within their holes.  Any ideas on how to do this?

I'll get pics of my flow bench up soon.

Thanks,
Camelman
« Last Edit: March 26, 2010, 09:16:47 AM by camelman »
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline scottly

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2010, 05:13:36 PM »
Something is definitely wrong! I would have to guess that the offending plugs, at least the worst one, is cross-threaded. If this is the case, then the plug gasket won't be crushed. You may be able to run a tap through from the combustion chamber side??
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2010, 09:51:25 PM »
Scottly,

The plugs are not cross-threaded.  They thread all the way in too.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline scottly

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2010, 10:32:39 PM »
Scottly,

The plugs are not cross-threaded.  They thread all the way in too.

Camelman

Is there a threaded insert repair in the worst case plug hole? Man, I can't wrap my head around such a difference in plug depth, stock!
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2010, 11:18:06 AM »
Scottly,

Good thought, but again, not the case.  I think it is just bad machining tolerances.  I'm just trying to figure out if it is worth it to machine the top of the spark plug hole more to lower the spark plug into the chamber.

Here's my flow bench set up.  I just set up a comparison bench.  I wasn't concerned with calculating actual air flow.  I found that one intake port was over 35% harder to breath through than the other three, and one of the exhaust ports was much worse.  I shaped bowls over the intake valves to start with, then opened up throats/runners to match the cylinders.  I could feel the difference in the port with my finger, and verified it with the flow bench.  I followed advice I gleaned from here and the internet on how to shape the ports.

First pic is the box.  I bought a storage container and cut a hole in the side for a shop vac hose to fit in (you can see it took a few attempts to cut a good hole):


Second pic is a plywood board with holes cut in for the cylinders to protrude through.  I glued rubber mat onto the board to create a seal between the box, jugs, and board.

Third pic is the partial assembly.  I put all of the dowels in place when I put the head on the jugs, but I did not use any gaskets.  The weight of the head and jugs was enough to seal to the board, and my head and jugs sealed very well to each other without being bolted together.

Fourth pic is a yardstick with four clear rubber tubes.

I placed the bottom of the yardstick (the short length of rubber tubes) in a shallow bucket of water.  The longer ends of the tubes were placed on the intake ports just like you would do if synchronizing the cylinders.  I repeated this on the exhaust side by cutting 8" lengths off a junk header, drilliing and tapping them to take a sync nipple, bolting them to the head, and repeating like i was synching the exhaust.  When flowing the intake, I installed the exhaust valves completely and installed the intake valves backwards to mimic the shaft of the valve being in the airflow.  I used the same procedure for the exhaust.  The spark plugs were all installed during this test.

The shop vac pulled plenty of vacuum to make the water rise up the rubber tubes.  There was almost no variation in the water level since the shop vac pulled at a constant rate (not like an idling engine).  Since all four cylinder were being flowed by a common plenum, I was comfortable assuming they were all experiencing the same pressure drop for comparing flow rates.
In addition to evening the individual ports, I blended the intake runners and ground down the portion of the carb sync screws that stuck into the airflow.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 11:45:09 AM by camelman »
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline scottly

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2010, 11:48:56 AM »
I guess short of machining the plug sealing surface down, the only other option might be to find longer reach plugs, if they exist, and then set the depths with indexing washers. (this assumes the chambers are the same cc)

I like your flow bench! I had thought about doing something like that before, but never got around to it.
Thanks!
Scott
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Offline HB-1fan

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2010, 12:04:48 PM »
camelman,
 Surely you have checked, but just asking anyway! Are you sure the offending plugs are without a doubt the right ones? Mabe someone else with the same head and stock plugs can post a comparable pic.

HB
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Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2010, 12:06:23 PM »
HB-1, good thought, but I am running the same plugs, and they are the correct ones.  I think I'm going to have to research plugs to find longer shafts.  I'd rather go that route first as opposed to machining.  I'll let you guys know what I find.

Scottly, you were on to a good idea.  It only took a few minutes to set it up, and it worked like a charm.  If you get around to doing it, then I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it.

A few more thoughts on the flow bench:

I could really hear the ports flowing when the vac was on.  There was a pretty loud whistle that got even louder when individual ports were blocked.  However, not enough vacuum was generated for a Morgan carbtune kit to register the flow.  So, you really do need to use an oil or water vac device to show the flow difference.  The water tube device was perfect for it.

The test really just measured resistance to flow through the ports.  This was perfect for verifying my thoughts on which ports needed work, and once I had the ports feeling similar to the touch, they definitely came in line on the vacuum test.

Take your time when figuring out where to remove material.  I ran my finger around in those ports for an hour before I decided where to remove material.  There are quite a few ridges that need to be understood before doing anything to them.  The ports for the 350F are different between the outer and inner cylinders too, so don't do any porting until you have everything straight in your head on how they are different.

C-man
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 12:12:20 PM by camelman »
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline ieism

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »
Just a thought, instead of machining the plugtreads in the head, why not machine the tread on the plugs itself. I'm sure you can get them to stick in a little deeper and still have enough material to get a socket on there.

Get some iridium plugs, they last forever so you only have to machine once. Plus they're supposed to improve combustion, although I can't tell the difference on my bike. And number the plugs 1 through 4 so you always have the correct depth.

---cb550---

Offline turboguzzi

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2010, 03:11:31 PM »
its really nice poking fingers in ports and such, but very un-scientific too.

here's  a simple way to REALLY assess your ports that you can do even if you are VERY broke.

Just use any 2K poliurethene rubber for the castings from a hobby shop instead of the hi-tech rtv

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2006/12/MakingMolds/

Offline camelman

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Re: porting flow results and shrouded spark plugs
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2010, 12:59:34 PM »
I just did my first ride post rebuild yesterday.  The engine was SOOOOOO much smoother.  I attribute it to a combo of flow-matched intake and exhaust ports, lapped valves, and the new spark plug wires.  It felt like a new machine and idled much better than it ever had in the past.  I still need to sync the carbs, but I highly recommend the mods I just mentioned.

Camelman
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)