Author Topic: Motor locked up today. What's next?  (Read 5309 times)

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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2010, 09:02:42 AM »
I will keep an eye out for that. That exploded view kind of sucks, is there a good place to get a diagram for all the gaskets and O rings that I will be replacing, where they go and what size they are?

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2010, 05:09:52 PM »
I will keep an eye out for that. That exploded view kind of sucks, is there a good place to get a diagram for all the gaskets and O rings that I will be replacing, where they go and what size they are?

Try the Parts diagram Lookup here:

http://www.babbittsonline.com/pages/parts/viewbybrand/default.aspx
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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #52 on: April 02, 2010, 05:04:56 AM »
Allright, I put in some time last night and got the cylinders and head on. Is it just me or did others have the overpowering fear that for some reason its going to leak (on you first topend job)? I know I replaced every gasket, o ring and plug but for some reason I just have this feeling it will leak and I will have to do it again.  :'(
Now for my new problem...upon receiving my new (used) cam, towers, caps and rockers I noticed one of the bearing surfaces has a little wear (radial grooves in bearings surface just deep enough to feel with fingernail). I have a couple options, run it as is and hope it holds together for a year or so, try and return it to seller, get my money back and shop for a new setup, swap out the good tower and caps from my old setup in place of the less good one on this setup. I know the towers and caps are line bored so they have to be used together but can I mix and match two sets of cam towers or are those machined together also?

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #53 on: April 02, 2010, 05:17:22 AM »
if it were me, i'd run it. DO NOT try to polish the grooves out because that will create extra clearance. others more experienced with these motors than me need to chime in...........HondaMan? Mriek?
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2010, 05:46:03 AM »
if it were me, i'd run it. DO NOT try to polish the grooves out because that will create extra clearance. others more experienced with these motors than me need to chime in...........HondaMan? Mriek?
I would really like to go with that option or swapping in the good side of my old valvetrain just to avoid shipping and trying to find another (better) set. I am not sure putting the good towers and caps on that side is a great option though anyways since the cam surface is worn it will probably just groove the good tower/cap surfaces right away anyways.

Offline bucky katt

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2010, 05:48:52 AM »
what i did in that situation was to bolt the cam holder onto the head, minus the cam, then measure using a dial bore gauge (make sure the anvils have rounded/spherical ends to get an accurate measurement, then measure the cam journal.subract the cam journal diameter from the bore diameter to get your clearance,check that number against factory specs.
Of all God's creatures there is only one that cannot be made the slave of the lash. That one is the cat. If man could be crossed with the cat it would improve man, but it would deteriorate the cat.
Mark Twain - Notebook, 1894

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2010, 12:52:34 PM »
You can use Plastigage (the thick stuff) to check the clearances. You want them to be within 0.0012" from best to worst (difference) or else it will vibrate a little until the smallest clearance one(s) wears in. If you think about their alignment, you'll figure that part out...

On these Fours, the center two cam bearings always wear the fastest and deepest, despite the fact they get the most oil. This is because the cam chain pulls downward at low engine speeds, due to the tension, and at higher speeds the center of the cam flexes toward the front of the engine a little. You'll usually find the wear pattern "leans" toward the front a little on the inner two.

I have sometimes taken the cam bearings and swapped their position in a given engine if the centers were worn past the 0.008" limit, but the outers were less. If the bike is not intended for lots of 7500+ RPM use, it works fine for daily-driver and touring use. It extends the life of used cam bearings by about 20k-25k miles or more. Synthetic oil will help a lot, too: I just saw where Mobil 1 if finally available in 20w50: I can't wait to try it. I like their 15w50, but it is a bit light for significantly worn engines, losing a little of that helpful cushioning effect.

In my book I recommend the bearings be installed back where they came from: this presumes, though, that the clearances are still below the wear limits. Excessive wear calls for excessive measures.  ;)
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2010, 02:45:41 PM »
Okay, I am confused once again. Trying to set my valves and think I may have the cam 180* off?
I turned the crank to the 1-4 T mark, the cam marks line up with the tower/cap mating surfaces, which way should the mark in the cam be, up or down? When the cam mark is up the intake on cyl#1 is just about to open and the exhaust has just closed, both tappets on cyl#4 are at rest with the lobes facing down. Is this where I should be setting the valves for cyl#1 or cyl#4?

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2010, 03:04:18 PM »
...the mark in the cam should be up.

EDIT--> like this

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 03:08:18 PM by fire113 »
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2010, 03:19:27 PM »
When my timing marks are at 1-4T and the mark is up the 1st cylinder seems to be still riding the lobes a bit but #4 is clearly on the base "circle" with the lobes pointing down. I though this is where I want to be adjusting the valves?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 03:27:55 PM by Yamanube »

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2010, 03:40:43 PM »
...how did You inserted the cam ? like on the pic ?
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2010, 03:48:34 PM »
I put it at 1-4T and installed it with the cam mark up. Also, regardless of where my cam mark is, when the lobes on cyl#1 are pointed down and both the tappets are loose the #2 exhaust and #3 intake are loose.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 04:02:44 PM by Yamanube »

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2010, 04:05:01 PM »
...then You did it right.

Turn the engine and keep an eye on the intake rocker/valve from 1#.
When it where opened and closed again You should see the T mark for 1# and 4#.
Both valves on 1# should be closed an now You are able to set the both valves on 1# and the intake valve of 3#
and the exhaust valve of 2# because the valves are closed too in this position.

EDIT--> after that You turn the crank exact 360° and You will see the T mark again but now the valves at 4# and the exhaust valve of 3#  and the intake valve of 2# are closed and You can set them.
When You did it turn the crank 360° again and check Your previous settings.

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 04:18:05 PM by fire113 »
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2010, 04:16:04 PM »
...then You did it right.

Turn the engine and keep an eye on the intake rocker/valve from 1#.
When it where opened and closed again You should see the T mark for 1# and 4#.
Both valves on 1# should be closed an now You are able to set the both valves on 1# and the intake valve of 3#
and the exhaust valve of 2# because the valves are closed too in this position.


Okay so maybe I installed the cam 180* off but that shouldn't be an issue as long as I set the valve lash when they are both closed (lobes pointing down) rather than when the lobes are up because it seems when they are up (and my mark is up) both valves have a little tension on them then when the cam rotated another 180 those tappets would be really loose. Is this correct? I am so freakin confused right now  ???

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2010, 04:36:57 PM »
Why do You think that You have installed the cam 180° off ???

When You have installed the cam (like on the pic) and the T-mark where on 1# 4# everything should be ok.

Did You moved the the cam or the crank BEFORE You set the screws on the camshaft sprocket ?

 
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #65 on: April 02, 2010, 04:47:43 PM »
Why do You think that You have installed the cam 180° off ???

When You have installed the cam (like on the pic) and the T-mark where on 1# 4# everything should be ok.

Did You moved the the cam or the crank BEFORE You set the screws on the camshaft sprocket ?

  
With the crank at 1-4T and the cam mark up the tappets on cylinder 1 rest on the backside of the exhaust and front of the intake lobes and the tappets on cylinder 4 are loose. With the cam mark down tappets on #1 rest on the round portion of the lobes and are loose and the tappets on #4 are tight.

Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #66 on: April 02, 2010, 05:01:13 PM »
remind me which bike this is?  On a 550, the cam shaft notch is zposed to line up with the matting surface (3 or 9 o'clock) and not 6 or 12 o'clock.
Can I have a motorcycle when I get old enough?
If you take care of it.
What do you have to do?
Lot’s of things. You’ve been watching me.
Will you show me all of them?
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Is it hard?
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #67 on: April 02, 2010, 05:05:40 PM »
750

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #68 on: April 02, 2010, 05:18:04 PM »
I put it at 1-4T and installed it with the cam mark up.
This is right!!!
If You install the cam in an other way You will get wrong timings.
I have post You the pic how the cam has to be installed and You have said that You did it that way so the cam is installed in the right way.
If You have moved the the cam or the crank before You have placed the chain and set the screws on the camshaft sprocket You will get wrong timings too.

EDIT--> Here You have 2 pics to be sure

« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 05:43:00 PM by fire113 »
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #69 on: April 02, 2010, 07:10:36 PM »
I'll shoot a couple pics tomorrow. It's time for a Guiness.

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #70 on: April 02, 2010, 07:21:20 PM »
I'll shoot a couple pics tomorrow. It's time for a Guiness.

ok deal and I have to sleep now. It's 4:20 AM here.
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Yamanube

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2010, 08:02:31 AM »
Okay, here are a couple pictures. With the crank at 1-4T cam up the rockers on #1 are resting on the back/front ramps of the lobes with slight tension and the rockers on #4 are resting on the base circles with no tension on them. These pictures are of the rockers on cylinder #1.
I guess the real question I need answered is do I set my valve lash with the lobes up or down (on the specific cylinder I am checking)?

Offline fire113

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Re: Motor locked up today. What's next?
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2010, 09:40:05 AM »
...without TENSION.

If there is tension how will You be able to set or measure something right?
You can only measure if there is no tension because when the tension is gone You will have more space between the arm and the valve.

sorry for My bad english, hope You can understand My english.
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