Author Topic: Piston domes and airflow.  (Read 2629 times)

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Offline Soos

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Piston domes and airflow.
« on: April 04, 2010, 11:58:59 AM »
Hey all,

1st Q:
How much will valve pockets shrouds affect airflow?
(see pics for with and without differences)


I am doing a bit of piston cleanups, and finally took a few minutes for a set of 66mm pistons I have.
I have 2 sets of these 66mm pistons, and since the higher dome set has 2 unusable pistons(cracked skirts) I would start with those 2.

The first one I did I did minimal cleanup.
The second one I got rid of the shroud of aluminum left from the valve pockets.

If you are wondering, these are KZ750 pistons modified for cb650 use.








l8r
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"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline mlinder

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2010, 01:13:23 PM »
What do you mean, "air flow"?
No.


Kurlon

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2010, 01:55:23 PM »
I 'suspect' the impact isn't that great?  Looking at 'high perf' pistons for say, 2v Ducatis they don't clean up the valve pocket shrouding.

http://www.ducshop.com/product_view.php?cat=6&pid=297 as an example.

Offline Franken750

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2010, 11:41:53 PM »
Soos,

Domed pistons really are awful things, but were a product of engine evolution of the time.

Firstly: a high-domed piston has much larger surface area than a flat-top piston.
This means much more heat can be absorbed by the piston (= higher oil temp = burned oil around rings, wrist pins = poorer lubrication at the top of the bore). The heat loss also reduces the cylinder combustion pressure.

Secondly:  Extra metal in the dome = heavier = more reciprocating mass = slower engine acceleration.

Thirdly:  To get ever-higher compression ratios the dome must push well into the roof of the combustion chamber. As in your pics, valve pockets are needed.

During overlap on the exhaust stroke is when scavenging is most needed, and is most efficient when you can see through the open exhaust valve and past the open inlet valve. You can't do that with high domed pistons. :(   Then there is the issue of the valve pockets interfering with good swirl patterns.

4-valve heads were the only way to solve all these problems. The XL-250 is a good example.

By contrast, the h.c. pistons used in the BSA and Triumph triples at Daytona  '69, '70 era are real shockers. I have a pic around here somewhere ...

Fourthly: Don't go carving bits off your piston willy-nilly, as it will upset the balance of the motor.  Pistons are manufactured to a weight tolerance of less than a gram, and also must all be the same weight.  :'(

Fifthly: No number fifthly.  :D


In among all that I think I may have answered your query.

Oh yeah - piston crowns can now be ceramic coated to provide heat insulation (= lower piston temps). 
1982 Bol D'or CB750
1973 CB750 K3 in bitz in the Franken Lab.
1989 Porsche 928 S4

Offline scottly

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2010, 12:03:35 AM »
Soos,

Domed pistons really are awful things, but were a product of engine evolution of the time.

Firstly: a high-domed piston has much larger surface area than a flat-top piston.
This means much more heat can be absorbed by the piston (= higher oil temp = burned oil around rings, wrist pins = poorer lubrication at the top of the bore). The heat loss also reduces the cylinder combustion pressure.

This was one of the problems with Mopar Hemis; the extreme dome of the pistons were a huge heat sink.

I have to give it to you Aussies; you boys all seem to be pretty sharp!!!
Scott
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Offline paulages

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2010, 12:18:49 AM »
all that noted... the stock 650 gives the stock 750 a good run for it's money, and the only other notable difference is a much-improved port design... though to be fair this probably accounts for most of its power.
paul
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Offline scottly

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2010, 12:29:56 AM »
Well, as the old saying goes, "the horsepower is in the heads". The more air a motor pumps, the greater the potential to make power..
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
Helmets save brains. Always wear one and ride like everyone is trying to kill you....

Offline Franken750

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 12:32:51 AM »
Awww gee Scottly... Blush.  #-)

(As if we'd let anyone else think otherwise).

 ;D


Franken
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Offline turboguzzi

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 05:11:12 AM »
I would ask it as in: " how much do deep pockets slow the swirl flow", surely not intake flow as the piston is going AWAY from the head at intake, so cant see how the dome has anythign to do with it.

But when the piston is at TDC, then it might slow down swirl and I hope we all agree that swirl is beneficial right?

So in high dome pistons my gut feeling is deep pockets hurt quite a bit. There is an old school car tuner who has a site (forgot his name) and he chamfers the sharp edges of the valve pocket cuts with a big 45 chamfer, specially on those tall hemi jugs.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

TG

Offline Soos

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 03:23:13 PM »
Thnx all.


And Ceramic coating is something I am interested in.
I do know that the flat top pistons of more modern bikes are like that for a reason(heat being #1) But for the bike I have, this is simply one of the options I have for an overbore.
The pistons are fairly cheap($30-$60/set) and I can do my own machine work(lathe and milling work)

I think I am going with the one with the valve pocket shroud material removed.
Just a few program changes. instead of manually cutting it off.
The less reciprocating mass with this big of an overbore sounds like more a reason than the flow it sounds like to me.



l8r
-=≡ Soos ≡=-
Just think to yourself what would Alowishus Devander Abercrombie do?
"Brix will be shat by your neighbors." - schwebel
(61mm)652cc 1979 cb650

Offline mlinder

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 03:37:51 PM »
The pockets don't really affect flow, soos... I'm wondering if you are talking about something else..
No.


Offline vintage_racer

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Re: Piston domes and airflow.
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2010, 11:16:48 AM »
High doms are the real problem, the deep valve pockets are just a result of these high doms and probably don't hurt flow that much. The motor I raced with over the past 6 seasons had Yosh pistons with lots of dom and deep valve pockets (also used a pretty radical camshaft). For this season I'm building a motor with flat (stock) pistons and much more relaxed camshaft (just got it back from WebCam). I still keep my lightly ported head and CB750 carbs. We will find out if there is much difference in power between the two (I suspect that there wouldn't be much).
Dan   
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