Topic: Broken cylinder stud(Snap!)

[scondon]

    I know this topic has been covered but I couldn't find it. I'm replacing my stock cylinder studs with a set of heavy duty Ape studs. 11 of the 16 studs spun out with moderate effort, but 5 of them are not budging. One of those 5 has snapped at the base and will need to be tapped out. Needless to say I am taking a break and seeking the wisdom of this forum before I proceed.

    Here's the process I've been using, feel free to add to it.

1) heat stud using propane torch

2) apply "Lliquid Wrench" at the base and allow to cool a bit

3) using "double nut" at the top and vise grips at the base, attempt to spin stubborn stud out

   I'm thinking that I should hit each remaining stud with Wd40 or Liquid Wrench each night for the rest of the week and try again next weekend. In the meantime, I need to figure a way to tap out the broken stud as getting the engine to a machine shop is going to be difficult at best. Can anyone reccomend a method using tools found at a hardware/auto store?

Thanks in advance

[Bob Wessner]

1) heat stud using propane torch

This is based on absolutely no real-life experience, but I would try heating the material around the base of the stud rather than the stud. Seems like you want that to expand rather than the stud. If you expand the stud, it will be just that much tighter. Alum. expands at twice or more the rate of steel.

You might want to wait for a second opinion on this though. 

[jaknight]

   I am kind of shooting in the dark with not actually seeing your particular situation - - - as much as I hate to say it, it sounds like you might have to go with an easy-out setup.

   If soaking with Liquid Wrench for several nights running ( using repeated applications each night ) does not work, I would try an easy-out.  If you do end up having to go this route, I would not use the largest diameter that you possibly can.  It has been my experience that a slightly smaller diameter that has been drilled and driven in with a hammer to a greater depth in the frozen stud/bolt has a much better power grip for removing the stuck bolt/stud.  IF the smaller diameter does not pull the bolt free, you can always drill the hole larger and go in with the next size up of the easy-out.  Remember, the real trick is to pound the easy-out as far into the bolt as possible after drilling the hole for the easy-out.  The repeated hard pounding may also help break it free.

   Needless to say, keep your drilled hole as well centered as possible on the stuck bolt.  I have found it best to use a cobalt drill bit.  I wish you good luck and hope that you do not have to go this route- - - - give the Liquid Wrench a chance..........

   P.S.   A very good idea Bob, but Scondon, if you heat the aluminum at the base- - - -  don't overdo it.  Aluminum does become more brittle with heat and cooling - - - if it becomes too brittle you can end up stripping the threads out and then have to resort to a helicoil insert.  I have done them before; they are not always enjoyable.........
   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[heffay]

if it helps... the gf and i just broke my chain breaker tool.

SNAP!

now, we have to wait till tuesday to order the stupid replacement pin.

so, much for a quick fix.

[MRieck]

 Soak it and heat the case with propane. There is so much material there it is basically impossible to overheat it. Get it hot. And vice grip the broken studs.

[jaknight]

MRieck - - - - ->

   I would not begin to say that I am anywhere near the machinist that you are.

   However, I did see a spark plug hole that disintergrated from a spark plug that was stuck and heated with a propane torch to free it from the block.  It did come out, but the spark plug hole basically crumbled apart; shattered and crumbled if you will.

   That was a Volkswagen engine block made from aluminum.

   I agree that it can be done, but in a judicious manner.

   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[scondon]

   Thanks for the quick responses guys. I'm going to head for the hardware store and see if I can find this EZ Out tool(thanks jaknight) as there is nothing left of the stud that can be gripped with the vise grips. Seems the consensus is to heat the aluminum base rather than the stud. . So far no real damage has occured, just a setback.

    These cylinder base threads seem to be in better shape than the aluminum threads in the head. I'm guessing they get less heat from the combustion and therefor aren't as brittle.

[brewbrother]

    I know this topic has been covered but I couldn't find it. I'm replacing my stock cylinder studs with a set of heavy duty Ape studs. 11 of the 16 studs spun out with moderate effort, but 5 of them are not budging. One of those 5 has snapped at the base and will need to be tapped out. Needless to say I am taking a break and seeking the wisdom of this forum before I proceed.

    Here's the process I've been using, feel free to add to it.

1) heat stud using propane torch

2) apply "Lliquid Wrench" at the base and allow to cool a bit

3) using "double nut" at the top and vise grips at the base, attempt to spin stubborn stud out

   I'm thinking that I should hit each remaining stud with Wd40 or Liquid Wrench each night for the rest of the week and try again next weekend. In the meantime, I need to figure a way to tap out the broken stud as getting the engine to a machine shop is going to be difficult at best. Can anyone reccomend a method using tools found at a hardware/auto store?

Thanks in advance

I'm not an expert, but I would use a pipe wrench with a 3 foot piece of steel pipe as a leverage bar. perhaps the added leverage in conjunction with liquid wrench and the heat may help.

[jaknight]

Hey Scondon,

   If you do in fact drill and use an EZ out, buy some cobalt drill bits starting with a 1/8 inch drill bit and then work your way up in size increments to your final drill size.  It is MUCH easier to keep your drilling centered that way.  If you cannot purchase enough bits to do the step-size drilling, at least buy the 1/8 inch bit to start and then your final size to finish for the EZ out.

   If you can, use a file to smooth and level the top of the bolt stub that you can reach.  It is difficult to keep a drill bit centered on a canted or unsmooth flat surface.  Believe me, flat and smooth makes a phenomenal difference on whether a drill bit will "walk" or remain on the center.  Good luck, I really had hoped you did not have to do this............

   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[CharlieVT]

For the non-broken but resistant studs.  Apply penetrating oil (not WD40) over several days. Heat the case around the stud ( I use a heat gun rather than a propane torch, but either will work). Grip the stud with a good big Vice-Grip. Get a really good grip with the ViceGrip. Keep heating the area around the stud. Get a wet towel that has been in the freezer for awhile and wrap it around the ViceGrip. (You are trying to suck heat out of the stud through the ViceGrip while expanding the metal around the stud.  Then apply your torque.
If you just put a cheater on the stud you risk breaking off another one.
For the already broken stud: Get your EasyOuts (an oxymoron if there ever was one!).  With a center punch make a depression in the center of the broken stud to help center your drill. Drill a hole into the center of the broken stud. Apply penetrating oil over a few days (at least overnight). Pound an EasyOut into the hole. Heat the case. Grab the EasyOut with what ever tool (ViceGrip?) you will use. Cool the tool with near frozen wet towel while continuing to heat the case.
You'll get them out.
Worst case for the broken stud: Easy out just won't get it. Then drill it successively larger until you chase the threads with a tap. If you destroy the original threads then you'll have to tap the hole a little over size and have a slighly larger stud.
Good luck and have fun.

[bwaller]

In the case of the broken stud, if you couldn't budge it going through the routine you tried, an easy-out will probably break and then you're in sh.., and drilling is a last option. Take the case to a good welder, make sure the stud is not more than 1/2" long and get them to tig weld another nut to the stud and cool the stud with water in a squirt bottle and apply loose nut to the base of the stud. When the nut loosens, work it out by turning it back & forth slightly. The concentration of heat usually does the trick.

Good luck 

[dusterdude]

im gonna tell ya,if you guys can buy pb blaster somewhere in your area get it,that stuff is the #$%*.

[scondon]

       Great advice guys. The hardware store was closed so I am setting down the tools for today. I'll take small steps over the week, filing the brocken stud flat and adding penetrating oil around the remaining studs. I've got succesively larger drill bits to use for the EZ Out(when I get it) and there is a wet towel in the freezer.

       I'm going to try the "revamped" routine on the remaining, unbroken, studs. If I can get them to come loose I will then try the EZ Out on the broken stud. Lining up transportation to get the engine to and from a welder/machine shop during business hours is difficult so that is my final option.

       

[scondon]

im gonna tell ya,if you guys can buy pb blaster somewhere in your area get it,that stuff is the #$%*.

    I just looked online at this stuff and it sounds like it's worth a go. Ace Hardware suppoesdly carries it and that is where I'm going for the EZ Out. I'll post my results here.

[joeb]

Sean if you need a hand getting to the machine shop give me a call I will send you my number.  I have a pick-up truck that I barely use we can make arrangements some how . 

[Raul CB750K1]

Sean, let me get back where all started. Why did you want to replace the studs? What was wrong with them?

Raul

[Terry in Australia]

G'Day Sean, the removal bit has been done to death, (although I have no faith at all in "easy outs", they're rubbish, try the square ones that The Eastwood Company sell, they're expensive, but good) but to your question re: removing all the other studs, use the double nut method, and put a spanner on the nut, but also use vice-grips down near the base of the stud, 180 degrees opposite the spanner, and with the spanner in your left hand and vice-grip in your right (or vice-versa) carefully turn the studs, trying to keep them from bending as you turn them. Let me know when you're having fun, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

[scondon]

Sean if you need a hand getting to the machine shop give me a call I will send you my number.  I have a pick-up truck that I barely use we can make arrangements some how . 

Thanks Joe. You've got mail

Sean, let me get back where all started. Why did you want to replace the studs? What was wrong with them?

Raul

I'm on a quest to make a "weep free" rebuild   I restored the bike and built a "hot" 836 motor, but even after torqueing the head down TIGHT it "wept" from the head gasket and misted back on my nice clean bike. This has been my experience on previous engine rebuilds as well. Yeah, I probably could have gotten away with just adding some sealant around the oil return passages so the real answer to your question is probably "for the experience, Raul". Not only am I learning the ins and outs of stud removal but also how to remove broken, rusty stubs And hopefully in the end will learn what difference, if any,Heavy duty studs will make.

    For anyone wanting to attempt this in the future I'd like to point out that the engine base I'm working on is an F3. 4 out of the 5 stubborn studs(including the broken one) are the blocked off oil return studs, two? of which are open to the outside elements and therefore prone to rust and corrosion. This is specific to the F2/F3 engine ONLY. The rest of the studs(except for one-oil feed) came out without much fuss.

try the square ones that The Eastwood Company sell, they're expensive, but good. Let me know when you're having fun, ha ha! Cheers, Terry.

I'll check out Eastwood when I get to work. I am REALLY havin' fun with this

[Bob Wessner]

I'll check out Eastwood when I get to work. I am REALLY havin' fun with this

Great outlook. 

[eurban]

I used the APE studs on my Wiseco 836 build.  The engine is a 78K.  So far at about 500 miles there are no oil leaks.  I torqued to APE's specs which were a bit higher than Honda's for their stretchy studs.  Obviously, retorquing on the 750 is a motor removing PIA so I have not done so as of yet.  When I installed the studs I also broke one of the old ones off right at the case.  I center drilled it with a small cobalt bit and worked my way up thru larger and larger sizes.  Of course the hole wasn't exactly centerered which worked out fine since I stopped drilling when I was just at the point of threads only remaining on one side.  At this point I crushed in the bolt and out it was.  This was a slow process but worked fine with no damage to the case threads. You can buy  reverse cutting drill bits that you might try.  The turning and grabbing action of the bit might turn the whole bussiness out before you get even close to the threads.  Double nutting at the top and vise grips down lo was the technique  I used and I was being sloppy when I broke the one stud off.  Some were definitely harder to remove than others.  Ape and others do sell a stud removal tool that I believe will slide down farther on the stud close to the case.  If you still have a bunch of stuck studs at this point it might be a worthwhile investment.  That and maybe using an air impact wrench on the double nut at a relatively low setting while your buddy helps with vise grips closer to the case.  The vibrations of the impact often seem to help alot.  I can only imagine that the F2/3 motors would be tougher based on your description of weather exposure.  Keep after it, I am sure you will get it.  I keep the drilled/collapsed stud end in view in my work area to remind me of the dangers of carelessness!

[scondon]

      Thanks eurban, it's always good to know that someone else has gone the same route and come through OK. This motor did not start to weep until 1000 miles and got progressively worse after that. I'm thinking that the APE studs will not stretch near as much as stock and will prevent the premature weeping.

[Sam Green Racing]

Hi Sean,

Our race motor is almost ready to be built, hope we dont have any stud issues.

The milage we do drag racing compaired to the miles you did before it leaked makes me think we should be OK.

Doing about 60 miles a year, it should start leaking in 2023. 

[jaknight]

Hey Scondon,

   I really had hoped you did not have to go through this.  Sorry Terry, but I would not use the square type of EZ out.  I have found that the slotted relief cuts of the square ones can crush closed and then lose their gripping power.  The trick to the regular spiral EZ outs is to use a crescent wrench on top or even a tap wrench ( like when tapping threads in a newly drilled hole) and keeping everything vertical/perpendicular, not letting it get canted at all. Get the drilled hole deep enough to take a goodly portion of the major diameter of the EZ out, don't try to work with 1/8 of an inch diameter of a 1/2 inch diameter EZ out.  Take your time, be patient, be careful.  You can do it, just no need to rush.

   With all the words and advice you have been given, I do not envy your task of choicing and deciding.  Proper use of heat is a good idea.  In my case,.........

   I had many a time when I could not use heat, for obvious reasons.  I had to remove more than 200 stuck bolts and screws, made out of titanium, in one day, on an F-15 Screaming Eagle.  The primary ground crew on that particular bird consistantly over tightened the bolts and screws.  It was no biggie, they knew they would not have to be the ones to remove the stuck screws.  It was the month of July at Edwards Air Force Base in California.  Back then, ( I'm an old timer, this was the early '80's), it was only a 40 or 50 million dollar plane.

   I have removed thousands more in all types of different aircraft, from prop driven Cessnas to a 100 million dollar B1B bombers,  never got to use heat on a single one of them, for, as I say, obvious reasons.......

   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[jaknight]

Hey There Scondon,

   Check out your mail!!
   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~

[Terry in Australia]

Well as much as I detest spiral easy-outs, I'll defer to Jak's experience as far as the broken stud removal goes. He's pulled more busted studs than I've had cold beers, and that's saying something! Cheers, Terry.