Author Topic: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?  (Read 3153 times)

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Offline luder

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luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« on: April 10, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »
 yesterday I pulled the carbs again, I pulled out the pressed in jets,cleaned (boiled,carb cleaner and a strand of copper wire,compressed air) all holes are open. Took out the emulsion tubes,etc etc. Carb cleaner and air thru all again. Put back on the bike (which I am getting pretty good at) wintergreen oil and xylene is one of the best tips Ive read. I tried to start her but she was fuel starved-Today I noticed no fuel would come out of the petcock on reserve, which I was happy with as I was going to pull the carbs again. So with the petcock on I started her up, when she would idle for about 3 seconds at 1100rpms then go up to 3000 for about 3 seconds then drop back to 1100-over and over with no variation, then I fouled #1 plug again.As some of you have been following my build thread you know about my getting her running problems. If not-new accelerator pump,float needles,and more than a dozen times taking the carbs apart and cleaning. I have not took the bank apart or touched the slides. I hope somebody has had to happen and point me in some direction-much appreciated......luder     I will also put this in the regular forums

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2010, 10:52:47 AM »
I don't see a mention of a carb vacuum sync.  The changing idle speed could be carbs that are fighting for dominance among the cylinders, i.e. one slide is raised (or closed more than the others).  One clue for this is that the failing/starving cylinder usually has a different head pipe temp compared to others (which can be caused by other issues, as well).

You mention fuel source issues, but not how you fixed that problem.  If the carbs can't maintain a constant fuel level in the bowls the pilot jet may be going in and out of starvation, as it sits higher in the carb's fuel supply.

Are all the spark plugs fouling or just one?  Do new plugs solve the idle speed change issue.  Are there multiple issues?

Don't know if you need to,  but if you do end up taking carbs apart again, you should verify that all four entries/exits to the pilot system of each carb are clear and inter connected   It's hard to see air movement, but if you use a liquid under pressure (like aerosol carb cleaner in a pressurized can with the red tubes) you can verify flow by plugging two holes and see flow through the remaining two.  You can repeat this by changing what's plugged and where the liquid is injected until all possibilities are proven in each carb.  The holes to check are: the pilot jet, the pilot air jet, the Pilot adjust screw hole, and the exit port into the carb throat.


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2010, 11:48:10 AM »
Thank you twotired. I have not synced the carbs and have not touched the sliders as it ran when PO parked her about 11 years ago. This last cleaning- I did pull the pressed in jets and I believe I have every orifice clean in the carbs (after many attempts) I did put new float needles in her as I had one with a stuck spring and I could not free it up. I believe they seal good because if I close all 4 I cannot blow thru them. This idle up and down at about 3 second intervals didn't start till after the last cleaning. Before the last cleaning I was pig rich and fouling plugs,gas out of the exhaust etc. I think my valves are adjusted as I have checked that more than a couple times also. When I set my float height the tang was just touching the float tip and that seems like it should be easy as the spring in the float does not depress with the floats resting on them-(14.5mm) New plugs on the last start up,new points and condensers, When I do foul a plug maybe #1 will go 1st (could be my imagination) also new plug caps. Maybe I should of tried to get this running before tearing her apart-just impatient here as I do bodywork and that was the place to get at her for me-any help very much appreciated....luder

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2010, 03:42:53 PM »
Thank you twotired. I have not synced the carbs and have not touched the sliders as it ran when PO parked her about 11 years ago.
Well, it IS running now, yes?
How well did it run 11 years ago when the P.O. parked it?  Did you witness proper running or how it idled back then?
I'm not comfortable with unproven assumptions.  'Been fooled too many times.

Honey, the TV is broken and won't work.  I called the serviceman.

Dear, did you check to see if it was plugged in?

No, Hon,  Why would I??  It worked the last time I used it!

Dear, I fixed the TV for you, ain't I great?

Yes Hon.  I don't know what I'd do without you.  Was it hard to fix?

No. I noticed someone had tripped over the cord, which yanked the plug out of the wall.

OK Hon, I'll cancel the service call.

(Don't you just love little fables like this?)
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb? video added
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2010, 01:29:23 PM »
OK I'm trying again-The idle increase seemed to be a leaking carb boot as she stopped after I modified some clamps. If this video works you can see I have to give her gas to get her started and she still seems rich as looking at my exhaust. Idle screws were out 1 turn as I tried to tape this-any suggestions-maybe check my valve clearance again,timing,etc,etc,etc   thanks luder

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb video added
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2010, 01:33:52 PM »
.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2010, 09:43:48 AM »
anybody watch the video?

Offline madmtnmotors

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2010, 10:33:00 AM »
"Today I noticed no fuel would come out of the petcock on reserve"

What did you do to correct this and what was the result?
TAMTF...


Wilbur



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Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2010, 12:36:54 PM »
I read your project thread today.

I noticed to set the floats wrong.  The weight of the float will depress the needle spring pin.  You need to set them when the carbs are on their side.  The float valve will stay seated and you can adjust the float tab so it just touches the spring pin when the float height is correct.

Have you checked to see if the accel pump nozzles are leaking all the time?

There are two check valves for the accel pump.  If they are stuck open, extra fuel gets sucked into carb throats.  As a test procedure, remove the filter box, run it and watch for gas dribbling out of those posts at the carb inlets.  They should only squirt when you twist the throttle.  And, be dry at all other times.

Have you checked to see if the main jets have been drilled more open?

Have you checked that both air jets are clear; one feeds the pilot system, one feeds the mains and slide throttle valve fuel supply?

Sloppy rich carbs will foul the plugs, then the fouled plugs with run badly even after you've fixed the mixture. FYI

Are all the head pipes getting equally hot at idle and when the throttle is held to 3-4K?  Colder pipes point to cylinder that has issues to address, either spark, compression, or carb.  Divide and conquer.

I still think you will need to at least check the vacuum balance.  But, that is unlikely to cause the engine to run as badly as the video shows.





Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2010, 09:09:48 AM »
Thanks for the reply two tired. I just pulled the airbox and all 4 carbs are squirting from the accel pump, but I don't know how you would see them dribbling as they are behind the slide-right? As I was setting floats before -the weight of the floats does not depress the needle at all with the float weight on them,that is why I did it that way. They are new float needles-Hope they are not the wrong ones, but they do shut off flow when depressed. Also can you tell me if the rubber tube towards the rear is a vent tube and just sits there open. (The smaller rubber tube with the plastic fitting then a piece of rubber hose about 6 inches long that sits behind the fuel supply hose. I will do some reading and then pull the carb bank (again) and check out the check balls, if I can find them. Should I be able to depress them and have them pop back up as I would imagine they have a spring behind them. I will let you know....thanks again, luder

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2010, 10:08:24 AM »
Thanks for the reply two tired. I just pulled the airbox and all 4 carbs are squirting from the accel pump, but I don't know how you would see them dribbling as they are behind the slide-right?
"Behind" is a matter of perspective.  They are at the entrance to the carb mouth.  The brass posts. The outlets face the slides. You can use an inspection mirror to see the outlet holes.

As I was setting floats before -the weight of the floats does not depress the needle at all with the float weight on them,that is why I did it that way.

Then they are not the stock needle design, or the spring pin is stuck.
I'm not sure how to predict proper function when design elements are changed, or not fully functional.
Have you run clear tubing from the drain up the sides of the bowl to ensure proper fuel level in the bowl?  It should be about 1/8 inch below the bowl gasket surface.

They are new float needles-Hope they are not the wrong ones, but they do shut off flow when depressed.
New from what source?  I guess I just want to know how you know they were the correct parts for those carbs.  I didn't think the float pivot geometry would allow solid needles to perform as expected.  Perhaps if the overall length was adjusted just right...  Do they have rubber tips?

Also can you tell me if the rubber tube towards the rear is a vent tube and just sits there open. (The smaller rubber tube with the plastic fitting then a piece of rubber hose about 6 inches long that sits behind the fuel supply hose.
Yes, it is a vent to allow atmospheric pressure to sit on the fuel in the carb bowls.  That's the pressure that pushes fuel through the metering jets.  The tube normally extends back behind the engine and in front of the swing arm.  The tube keeps water, dust, and insects out of the carb's fuel reservoir chambers. (Bugs have very small brains, yet severe wanderllust.)

I will do some reading and then pull the carb bank (again) and check out the check balls, if I can find them. Should I be able to depress them and have them pop back up as I would imagine they have a spring behind them. I will let you know....thanks again, luder

The accel pump is located on/in the #2 carb bowl.  The check valves as not easily accessible, have a square block pressed into the access hole preventing disassembly.    They must be checked with fluid pressure to ensure one way flow.  There is one check ball in the pump cap and another in the bowl body, if I recall correctly.  One keep the pump from pushing fuel back to the carb bowl reservoir, the other keeps fluid from coming back from the outlet nozzles.  I don't if the check balls have a spring on them, as I have never need to take them out  Soaking in carb cleaner and using the aerosol cleaner pressure was all I ever needed to get them operational again.

While you have the pump off check the sealing gasket.  The mickey mouse ears need to have a hole in them about the same diameter of the holes it seals.  These gaskets can get squished shut and make the pump perform poorly, if at all.  Do this while you are there to circumvent future issues.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2010, 10:41:28 AM »
Thanks again- The float pins look identical and the spring pins do push down, just needs more pressure on them than the weight of the floats (replaced because I had 1 pin I couldn't free up) and yes rubber tipped. Bought them from partsnmore I believe. I have used the clear hose with the bank set even in a vice, but I will try again. New accel pump as the other was torn, holes are free. I have seen the square plugs and I could squirt carb cleaner thru them. I will pull them yet again and follow your suggestions, I feel that there is some little (I hope) thing that will make this my daily rider, thanks....luder

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2010, 11:24:24 AM »
I have seen the square plugs and I could squirt carb cleaner thru them.

You should only be able to squirt cleaner through them in one direction only.  FYI
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2010, 11:34:58 AM »
I tried this 1st now we will pull them, I think I am on here-straight across the bank two tired...thanks I will let you know

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2010, 12:07:46 PM »
Blow thru only one way....

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2010, 12:09:37 PM »
        And other one only one way

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2010, 12:12:37 PM »
OK now for the two air jets you described-I am going to look for them....thanks luder

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2010, 01:33:59 PM »
Could be just a wording issue.  But, did you verify that you CAN'T blow though the opposite direction on the check valves?

Probably did. But sometimes details are important.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2010, 03:56:51 PM »
only can blow 1 way- but I am thinking I did something backwards on my valve adjustmant- still reading and I am looking at it now-thanks...luder

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2010, 02:17:03 PM »
OK two tired I have her back together again, sat thinking last night and keep questioning myself on something I did wrong. I was thinking about my valve adjustment-did I not start with #1 on tdc. So I read the Honda manual and then Clymers-clymers made more sense to me. So we did her again, put the tank on, filled the bowls and she fired up. Know I don't know if it was the carbs,the valves, or a combination, but she is not smoking and running like she did before, except I am still fouling #1. Tried new plug, clean plugs (blaster) but that's my hang up now. I feel like it was a great thing to happen after getting so disappointed and thinking nothing is going to change after this part of the project. I do have spark and the caps are new. So I appreciate your wisdom and when she runs on all four I will post a video of her running- has me thinking the valves were backwards-what do you think? Or maybe 1 and 4 are still backwards.(doubt it but) And I have been thinking about the accel pump, it sits on the third carb from left to right from the rear, not the second-(even though it has #2 stamped on her) but I didn't take that apart and it looks like everything would not go together right. I feel like I am in school, so I must go read somemore on this machine that I will conquer yet. Hey I quess if I do another one it might seem a little more user friendly.....Thanks again, keep you posted...luder

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2010, 04:00:22 PM »
Glad it is working better.

As you normally sit on the bike, the cylinders and carbs are numbered 1 to 4 reading left to right.
On all my Hondas with accel pumps, it is on @ 2 carb bowl.
The Honda 750 shop manual shows the pump on #2 carb.
I don't see how yours can be on the #3 carb.   ???

And, if you are adjusting valves assuming the wrong cylinder order, this may cause problems.  Just sayin'.

If the number 1 pipe is getting hot both at idle and when revved, to the same temp as others, it is unlikely a spark problem.

If the compression is equal to other cylinders, then it points back to something in the carb different from the others, possibly the slide is positioned differently, (Vacuum sync) or some metering path is not delivering like other carbs do.

Best of luck!

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2010, 07:33:43 AM »
   Now wouldnt this pic show the pump on #3, but the carb bowl is stamped #2, My #1 pipe is not getting as hot as the others, and #4 is slightly cooler also. I stopped at a bike shop in town and asked him if he had a manometer, no luck there. I will take a cold compression test today and give you the numbers, thanks luder

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #22 on: April 21, 2010, 09:35:52 AM »
cold compression test   #1 and #3 I could bump up to 100, #2 and #4 only 85?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #23 on: April 21, 2010, 11:38:49 AM »
Now wouldnt this pic show the pump on #3, but the carb bowl is stamped #2,
Well, no.
#1 on the left #4 on the right.
You don't actually show the accel pump in the pic.  But it goes on the second from the left.  I believe you can even see the pump actuator on the throttle linkage, that pushes on the rod of the accel pump.

Are your slides in backwards?  The cutaway is supposed to face the inlet side of the carbs.  I can't see the cutaway, which I should from this angle.  They are keyed, but it is possible to swap 3&4 with 1&2 to get them backwards.

Your compression test was made with a big auto type tester, I expect.  They have large volume which effects C/R and peak compression numbers on small engines.

Did you have the slides and choke fully open for the test?

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline luder

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Re: luders 78 -750 Im lost carb?
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2010, 01:17:38 PM »
Two tired-no I didn't have the throttle and choke open. I just put 20/50 oil in her and bought some d7s to see if there is a difference-still studying here. Yes automotive tester and I did read your comments on compression test theory and the type of tester used. I am going to put these plugs in and put some more fuel in her(premium) and see if she changes-thanks luder