Author Topic: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.  (Read 19754 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« on: January 23, 2006, 09:24:34 PM »
I've often been asked, by those who've ridden mine, why my 750 "feels" like a much smaller bike. Yours can be made to "feel" like the hotrod CB450 with 750 power by doing these things.

#1. Replace the steering head bearings (little balls and tracks) with VERY HIGH QUALITY tapered roller bearings. DO NOT use the Japanese or other oriental ones: use Timken. There IS a significant performance difference. And, set them up slightly tight, as they will wear in after about 500 miles.
#2. Replace the rear swingarm bushings with tight-fitting, oil-impregnated bronze bushings. Change the oriental-style grease zerk fitting(s) with US-style zerks so the grease can actually be forced into the bushings. Lube those bushings generously when assembling them, and use new felt seals when you do.
#3. Get Timken or Reynolds wheel bearings for the front wheel (2 each) and the rear (3 bearings back there). They cost nearly 3 times as much as the oriental ones, and they are worth every cent.
#4. All of the CB750K-K5 models I have seen have the "optional" steering head damper mounts. Get one from Fox or a BMW shop and install it. Set the damping to medium for startup, then adjust to suit when you get used to it.
#5. Tires. Use ONLY ribbed tire pattern in the front of a CB750K2- or later model. You can get away with a blocked pattern on a K or K1 model, because they don't "shake their heads" during deceleration. A ribbed front tire pattern helps make the bike run more stably under most street conditions, and it does not "wash out" suddenly in corners. The rear must be a symmetric pattern, preferably a block pattern. The new "sideslash" patterns on today's crotch rockets will cause sideways drift under heavy acceleration on wet (or slick) surfaces with the 750 geometry. Sizes: K5 and earlier: front must be 3.25 or 3.50 by 19". Rear is usually 4.00x18, some later ones had 17" rears and should be 4.50x17. IF YOU USE TT tires, use the 4.10x19 front and 4.50x18 (or 5.10x17) rear, AND ON BOTH ENDS. DON'T use a TT on one end only, and DON'T use them for heavy touring loads, they'll be all over the lane. These tire size combinations preserve the already-short 3.25" trail on the front end of these bikes, as well as the load rating. Larger rear tires will cause wobble, every time, because they shorten the trail.
#6. For those of you who have short inseams: your first choice should be to install 12" length rear shocks. Get 110-lb straight-wound or 90/120-lb progressive springs. If you install "lowering blocks", you will get a VERY stiff rear suspension, because the increased cant of the rear shocks will not allow them to compress over bumps. Shy away from those blocks. After installing these shocks, lower the front triple clamps about 1/2" on the front forks.
#7. Use teflon-mixed oil in the front forks. Get teflon-coated seals that are slighty shorter in length (1/4" instead of the stock 5/16" to 3/8" stock units). These will "float" up and down slightly between the top of the fork retainer and the upper C-clip, which makes them seal better and respond to minor road irregularities MUCH better. Install the optional steel washer ABOVE the seal (good kits include these washers). Drill and tap the fork caps and install threaded Shraeder-type air valves (found at tires stores, used on mags), one in each fork. Run about 10 PSI pressure if riding single, 15-20 if carrying heavy loads.

If you do ALL of these things, you will not believe the difference the next time you hit a corner. It will feel like the bike lost 100 lbs somewhere...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2006, 09:42:35 PM »
Hey Mr Hondaman,

When I built the CR750 I employed most of these mods, the only difference being the installing of Koni shocks on the rear.(half inch longer)

I have only rode the bike a Few times but like you say it feels 100 pounds lighter, there again it is 100 puonds lighter.  ;D ;D ;D

Taking the piss aside, thats a good post,.....Have a karma point on me Sir.

Sam.
C95 sprint bike.
CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

eldar

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2006, 08:36:31 AM »
Hmm I guess I never thought my bike was that bad. Does not feel a whole lot heavier than the rebel I have, when riding.

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2006, 09:07:04 AM »
just a tag to make the thread easier to find...

thanks Hman  ;)
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

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Offline gkw120649

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2006, 09:24:10 AM »
Do you have any numbers for the steering head and wheel bearings for a 1977/78 750K bike?

Thanks

Greg Williams
1977 CB-750 K
1978 CB-750 K

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2006, 09:56:50 AM »
I've copied this to the General FAQ as it's too good to loose.

I'll try to post any valid follow-ups.
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eldar

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2006, 10:40:56 AM »
Part numbers would be good to have. Or where to get these items.  Cause unless you know exactly what you are looking for, you might miss them.

Offline cbjunkie

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2006, 11:58:56 AM »
 ;) thanks, steve...
1971 750K1
1972 CB350 (deceased)

sometimes naked, sometimes mad -
now the poet, now the fool -
thus they appear on earth,
the free men.

jsaab2748

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2006, 05:04:24 PM »
Yeah, what Eldar said about part numbers, if you wouldn't mind. Those steering head bearings especially are hard to find, cause they're an odd size from standard. Excellent post sir! Please keep 'em
coming!

upperlake04

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2006, 06:52:35 PM »
Hondaman - yours is the kind of post that many of us who are enthusiastic but new to the mechanics of SOHC bikes  look for as we browse the site - logical, informational, objective - obviously written by someone with experience.  Thankyou

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2006, 08:32:52 PM »
Part numbers... Well, the only ones I have on hand are for the K thru K5 models. I've not installed any in the "rerun" bikes, as we used to call them, the last year-and-a-half of the CB750. I don't know if those last ones were the same size.

But, the ones I have are "MCI" brand. so tell your bearing dealer you want the "Timken equivalent" (Bower is also better than MCI). There are 2 bearings, one bigger than the other:

#H264815 (it measures 26.00mm I.D. by 48.00mm I.D., 15.00mm tall)
and
#H305014 (it measures 30.00mm I.D. by 50mm O.D., 14mm tall).

You'll also need a washer, if you have the stock bearings now. It measures about 3.80mm thick (.150") by 30mm I.D. (1.180") by about 45mm O.D. (1.77"). None of these dimensions are ultra-critical, as the crown nut has a reach of 8mm against the thickness, and it is a spacer to make up a difference you will see when you remove the old ones.

Oh - and, the big one goes on the bottom...  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline toycollector10

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2006, 01:18:57 AM »
A great post, good information. Can you help me? My stock 69 K0 CB750 has a brand new Dunlop Roadmaster K81 TT100 4.25/85H18 Nylon which I had fitted to the rear. I have done a couple of hundred miles on it so it is good to use properly. I like a ribbed front tire as that is how I always remember them years ago here, so can you recommend which brand or type to fit as mine is nearly worn down. I can't get IRC tires in this country (New Zealand). I'm just getting back to riding after a 30 year layoff and although my confidence is right up there I just can't bring myself to lay the bike right over, something feels like it isn't right yet. I used to scrape the pipes on my CB250 and other bikes I owned years ago but this bike says to me 'just go easy now son!'...maybe I'm just older and wiser?  Any ideas?  Regards, Mark
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki

Offline mcpuffett

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #12 on: January 27, 2006, 01:39:51 AM »
hi mark, i run my 750 f1 on dunlops TT100;s and use the matching front dunlop , handles great wet or dry with no issues  8)  mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline toycollector10

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #13 on: January 27, 2006, 01:49:35 AM »
Hi Mick, you mean that you use a TT100 block on the front as well?    Handles ok for you but the bikes exported to NZ always had a ribbed front I'm sure. cheers...
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki

Offline mcpuffett

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #14 on: January 27, 2006, 01:54:46 AM »
hi mark, if you do a search on here there was a thread about tyres and you will see some photo's of my tyres in there  ;)  mick.
Honda CB750 KO 1970,   Honda VTX 1300 2006, Lancaster England.

Offline SteveD CB500F

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2006, 11:02:01 AM »
SOHC4 Member #2393
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Gibson

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2006, 08:45:02 PM »
I've heard of putting taperd roller bearing's on to replace those stupid little ball's but once the old races are out how is it done ? kit?

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2006, 08:51:50 PM »
You just replace the complete thing, but the lower race has a spacer (thick washer) under it.

Sam.
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CB95 hybrid race bike
CB95 race bike
CB92
RS 175. sprint/land speed bike
JMR Racing CB750A street ET drag bike

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2006, 12:33:44 PM »
A great post, good information. Can you help me? My stock 69 K0 CB750 has a brand new Dunlop Roadmaster K81 TT100 4.25/85H18 Nylon which I had fitted to the rear. I have done a couple of hundred miles on it so it is good to use properly. I like a ribbed front tire as that is how I always remember them years ago here, so can you recommend which brand or type to fit as mine is nearly worn down. I can't get IRC tires in this country (New Zealand). I'm just getting back to riding after a 30 year layoff and although my confidence is right up there I just can't bring myself to lay the bike right over, something feels like it isn't right yet. I used to scrape the pipes on my CB250 and other bikes I owned years ago but this bike says to me 'just go easy now son!'...maybe I'm just older and wiser?  Any ideas?  Regards, Mark

My first thought: the 85-series rear is light on load rating, unless you're riding a cafe racer and only single-up. That profile is more suited to bikes weighing 500 pounds to 350 pounds. I always used the 4.25/110H size rear, 3.25/110H front on mine. If you put one on front, make it the same profile, but mind the weight.

Second, if you're running a TT100 on one end, run it on both ends.

The V-profile of the TT series is designed for increasing patch contact with the road as the lean angle increases. The trade-off for this is a slight instability at about a 5-10 degree lean angle if you have round-profile on one end and V-profile on the other. If the TT100 is on just the front, then the bike feels like it "dives" into the corner "ahead of schedule" (compared to what you are telling it to do). Then, as the tire loads in the turn, the caster changes (reduces) suddenly because the rear tire does not match the "squiggle" on the ground. The result is wobbly lines in corners, especially sweeping turns.
If the V-profile is on the rear only, and a round-profile tire on the front, the caster goes the other way as you start to lean over. The increased caster then tries to make the bike "climb" to the outside of the turn. When you straighten back up, it tends to overcorrect, making you "wobble" the other way.

Not that I'm against TT tires, you understand - they are my favorites (except when installing those steel beads) for overall mountain riding and wet traction. But, with touring loads, they wander all over the lane because they don't hold a heavy load vertically as well as round-profile tires. And, the block pattern on the front accentuates the decelleration "head shake" (K2 and later) unless you fix that problem (well, I see you're lucky enough to have a K0, so yours probably doesn't shake, anyway!).

The "big four" is one of the most top-heavy bikes in the world. The gas tank "feels" like it's solid lead when compared to other bikes. This requires a different riding sense, but one that will reward you with far better riding skills than, say, someone who only rides CB500 or BMW, etc. This high center requires you to "cross-steer" into a turn, then correct when you hit the angle you want. You don't realize you're already doing this, but since you rode lower-center bikes before, it feels different to you. To understand what I mean, go into a nice, empty parking lot and try this: ride about 5-10 MPH and push the bars slightly to the right. The bike will immediately go into a left turn. "Catch" the turn at the angle you want, then steer INTO that turn to stand the bike back up. Do LITTLE turns at first, then you'll get it. Once you get the hang of this, you'll ride everything else (especially bikes with lower center masses) with much greater ease and confidence.

I used to teach this in Motorcycle Safety classes. We saw 2 customers get killed and one seriously hurt when they jumped onto big bikes after riding 100cc-class putters. So, I talked the boss into sponsoring a Safety class one Saturday per week during the Spring and Fall, for free. We always had a big class, and no one got killed for clumsiness in their riding in the following 3 years. The most important thing I could teach was the "cross-steer" concept, because it makes your brain stop thinking about what you're doing and start reacting according to how the bike "feels" under you. Very important, especially with tall bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline toycollector10

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2006, 02:32:55 PM »
Thanks for your reply HondaMan. I will definitely fit a TT100 to the front on your recommendation. Most K0's on eBay seem to have blocks on them so maybe I am mistaken and they all came from the factory like that. Cheers.
1969  CB 750 K0
1973  CB175
1973  Z1 Kawasaki

scottgarland

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2006, 05:26:13 PM »
I have a January production date 1970 CB750 with the gang plug of four throttle cables. I have trouble betting smoth idle and not a very good wide open throttle operation. It dosn't miss it just runs out of steam at about 98mph or so cant seem to bust a ton. I bought the bike as a basket and have been picking at drive ability for a while, like putting Hagon shocks made for the bike, instead of the CBX shocks that were on it at time of purchase. It has electronic ignition and what appears to be a stock coil. I synced the carbs with a murcury stick as close as I could. The valves are adjusted correctly as well. Is it time for new carbs?   Scott in San Diego

eldar

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2006, 06:08:20 PM »
I have been running bridgestone spitfires on front and back and handling seems great. I wonder if this wobble extanded to the K8 as I have never had it happen to me as long as my tires were decent. Never had decel wobble.

Offline diamondd

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2006, 04:47:42 AM »
I am going to need new tires by spring.  My bike is a "75" cb750k. When I got her I put on the Bridgestone Accorrds 01 on the front and the 02 on the rear. Got 5000 miles out of them but the rear is going to need change. Any thoughts on these tires.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2006, 09:12:24 PM »
I have a January production date 1970 CB750 with the gang plug of four throttle cables. I have trouble betting smoth idle and not a very good wide open throttle operation. It dosn't miss it just runs out of steam at about 98mph or so cant seem to bust a ton. I bought the bike as a basket and have been picking at drive ability for a while, like putting Hagon shocks made for the bike, instead of the CBX shocks that were on it at time of purchase. It has electronic ignition and what appears to be a stock coil. I synced the carbs with a murcury stick as close as I could. The valves are adjusted correctly as well. Is it time for new carbs?   Scott in San Diego

Lucky you! A 1970 is a GREAT CB750! The cables can be bothersome until you get used to them. First thing to check: one cable is very short between the splitter and the carb (I forgot which side it's on). When syncing the carbs, this one can get "shortchanged" and prevent the others from opening the last little bit, resulting in the symptom you describe. It just hits the top earlier than the others, stopping the throttle grip. When this has gone on for a long time (like 30 years), a kink can develop in the cable on that one carb, which then limits all of them. This was pretty common. To test for this: remove the tank and pull up on each cable to expose the inner wire, one at a time. Look for one or more broken strands in the ones on either end (the shortest and longest ones). The indivdual short cables can be replaced. Honda had a warranty out for the real short one because it would kink or sit out of its holder (adjuster) on the top of the carb, because it was just a little TOO short. This caused that cylinder to give a falsely large idle setting all the time.

When syncing the carbs, get within 1" of each other. Despite legends to the contrary, they do not match perfectly, ever. The reasons are many, mostly due to the way the heads were cast. The variance was so great that Honda settled on "balancing to the lowest one" for smooth operation, rather than trying for the max HP on a street bike. Most important: get the idle syn'd first. Turn all idle screws all the way out, then in until you "feel" the slides, then go in evenly about 1/8 turn at a time until it idles (about 1000 RPM). Blow a fan on the engine while doing this, or the readings will get screwy after a while. You should see a pretty even reading on all carbs at this point. If not, one is excessively dirty or has a clogged jet. Clean and try again. If all are within 1" at idle, go to 4000 RPM and adjust the "slack adjusters" on top of the carbs one at a time in 1/4 turn increments. You'll get the "feel" for how one carb affects another while you do this. Then, just to annoy the neighbor, briefly pop it up to 7000 RPM and see if the readings stay pretty close to one another (don't hold it there but a couple of seconds, because crank loads are high without tranny balance). If not, then the bores of the carbs where the slides go up and down are getting pretty worn, so you'll just have to live with it or replace the carbs.

Look for this on K1 also: someone may have fitted an 18-tooth countersprocket. The K0 and K1 had different cams from the later K1 and others, and would not pull an 18-tooth countersprocket in high gear. Instead, use a 17 tooth (if you have a 48 rear) or 16 tooth (with 45 rear) to drop the ratio slightly. The K1 cam was a little "later" by about 4 degrees, so the HP doesn't peak until 7500 RPM. This means you'll "hit the wall" right about 100 MPH if the gearing is too tall. That bike, with good gas and points, should cruise 120+ without breaking a sweat. Mine did, all afternoon. Do it somewhere safe, though, and with good tires.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

elcid

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Re: CB750 Handling in a nutshell.
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2006, 10:48:45 AM »
so let me ask, is the cb750 that much heavier & harder to handle than the cb550? I am building a bobber & I just always thought the 750 was too big for me & not light enough to zip around town like the cb550. What are your thoughts on this. Keep in mind we are dropping the engine in a softail frame with no stock parts. Also anyone know the weight & dimensions of cb550 & 750 engines?