Topic: swingarm sticking

[gmonkey]

I finally took the rear shocks off the frame and played with the swingarm.  It seems harder to move than I expected it to be and will stick in any position I leave it in.  Can this indicate that something is broken or do I just need to replace the grease?

If I take the swingarm off, does everything just bolt back together and torqued down appropriately or is there something that has to be replaced at every reassembly?  What kind of grease does it take?  There's a grease fitting on the swingarm, do I put the grease in through that after it's assembled or just grease everything up before it goes together?

Sorry if I'm asking something obvious.  I searched the forum and this doesn't seem to be addressed much, just replacing the bushings.  I haven't got a Clymer's and the FSM just says, take apart, inspect diameters and clearances, apply grease and reassemble. 

[HondaMan]

If it's that sticky, the grease inside is not lubricating anything, and the bearings may be seized and damaged. You'll have to take it out to find out what's up, and at the very least, clean it up inside and hand-relube, followed by serious pressure-lubing through that grease zerk to fill up the whole pivot area with grease.

Below is an exploded view of the system: the collar (item #8, the tube through the middle) is the most vulnerable part on the 550F, as it is steel. If not kept well-lubed, they rust, which then eats the bushings, destroying both. The rust will jam in those bushings, which then causes the damage when the bike is ridden. This all comes from lack of maintenance, followed by long periods of sitting unused. 

To remove the arm, first loosen the two rear engine bolts so the frame will spread a little. Otherwise the arm will be very difficult to remove. 

[gmonkey]

Thanks HondaMan!

Lack of maintenance followed by long periods of sitting unused sounds about right.  I take it 6 are the bushings?  Those are pressed in while everything else slides out, correct?

Also if I'm greasing through the fitting, how do I know when it's got enough?

[HondaMan]

Thanks HondaMan!

Lack of maintenance followed by long periods of sitting unused sounds about right.  I take it 6 are the bushings?  Those are pressed in while everything else slides out, correct?

Also if I'm greasing through the fitting, how do I know when it's got enough?

#6 are the bushings, but Honda doesn't make them anymore, nor the collar. That's how I ended up in the swingram rebuild business...

When greasing: first clean all the old, dried stuff out or the new stuff won't go in. Then install the setup loosely (don't tighten the big bolt, yet) and pump in at least 3 ounces of grease (nonfibrous type, don't use typical yellow wheel bearing grease) until it starts leaking out the bushings: you may have to work the arm up & down a few times during this part. Then put it together, tighten the big bolt, and add more grease until it tries to leak out again. The big bolt is between 25 and 40 ft-lbs: just tighten it until you feel it trying to "stop" above 25 ft-lbs.

[MoTo-BunnY]

If it still seems seized up or too tight after you try lubing it or whatever, I would highly recommend you just send the swing arm to Honda Man for rebuilding. 

It's the only thing yet, I have outsourced on my CB500 but I was more than glad to do so, as he really worked his magic on it. The ride improvement was definitely noticeable.

[Duke McDukiedook]

+1, Mark works serious magic on these swingarms, you will feel the difference with a good set of shocks on it.

[gmonkey]

Took off the swingarm.  Once I loosened the nut, it loosened right up.  Overtorqued?  I don't see much grease and there is some rust on the main bolt and in the bushings but it doesn't look excessive.  Hard to see inside so no photo but the collar didn't seem to be in bad shape.  How does this look?  Wirebrush the rust off and regrease?

[HondaMan]

Took off the swingarm.  Once I loosened the nut, it loosened right up.  Overtorqued?  I don't see much grease and there is some rust on the main bolt and in the bushings but it doesn't look excessive.  Hard to see inside so no photo but the collar didn't seem to be in bad shape.  How does this look?  Wirebrush the rust off and regrease?

The collar is still inside the swingarm in those pix. It's a tube, about 5mm longer than the width of the swingarm itself plus the little plastic flanges on the ends of the arm. Inside those flange pieces will be a fiber washer on each side: that's the grease washer (if it hasn't disintegrated from water). It looks rusty enough that you're probably going to find you have to drive it out: try inserting a 3/8" socket extension inside the tube, and use a bounceless hammer (so you don't tear up the extension). After you drive it in a ways, add another extension to the first one and keep going. 

[MCRider]

Took off the swingarm.  Once I loosened the nut, it loosened right up.  Overtorqued?  I don't see much grease and there is some rust on the main bolt and in the bushings but it doesn't look excessive.  Hard to see inside so no photo but the collar didn't seem to be in bad shape.  How does this look?  Wirebrush the rust off and regrease?

No it wasn't overtorqued. If  the collar (internal pivot pipe), bushings, side collars are all functioning properly (and not seized up as yours appear to be) it wouldn't matter how tight that nut is the swingarm will still pivot pleasantly. You got work to do, listen to HondaMan.   

[gmonkey]

The collar is still inside the swingarm in those pix. It's a tube, about 5mm longer than the width of the swingarm itself plus the little plastic flanges on the ends of the arm. Inside those flange pieces will be a fiber washer on each side: that's the grease washer (if it hasn't disintegrated from water). It looks rusty enough that you're probably going to find you have to drive it out: try inserting a 3/8" socket extension inside the tube, and use a bounceless hammer (so you don't tear up the extension). After you drive it in a ways, add another extension to the first one and keep going. 

The flanges you're talking about are 9 in your diagram and the things laid down in my first photo, correct?

Are you saying that A and B separated by the red line in the pic below are separate parts and A is the collar?  Holy crap, I thought the whole thing was the bushing and the collar was further down inside.

[MCRider]

I know your question is addressed to HM, allow me to take it till he comes back. Yes your A & B are separate parts. What you are seeing is the ends of number 8 and 6 in the parts diagram. 8 should turn freely inside #6 ( there would be a number 6 at each end of the swingarm pivot tube). In fact, at the angle you are holding the swingarm, #8 should slide out. It is a tube about 8 inches long.

It is seized inside the #6 bushings. This is very common, and the bike will run like this. But it will run much nicer when its fixed.

[gmonkey]

I know your question is addressed to HM, allow me to take it till he comes back.

I'll take all the help I can get.  Anyway, I know it's taking him longer nowadays to find a phone booth to change into his superhero getup because they're getting phased out due to cell phones.

[HondaMan]

MC's got it right: I'm estimating that the rust is holding the collar in there and you're going to grow biceps while taking it out. 

[gmonkey]

The collar is still inside the swingarm in those pix. It's a tube, about 5mm longer than the width of the swingarm itself plus the little plastic flanges on the ends of the arm.

The ends of the collar were flush with the bushings on mine.  Does that mean it's gotten ground down or am I misinterpreting what you're saying here?

Started pounding out the collar.  Won't go more than quarter of an inch in either direction so I took off the fitting and sprayed in some PB Blaster to sit overnight.  Hopefully that'll help some.  I already managed to take a chunk out of one of the bushings which were plastic.

There's a rubber lip inside the flanges but I don't see a fiber washer anywhere.

[MCRider]

The collar is still inside the swingarm in those pix. It's a tube, about 5mm longer than the width of the swingarm itself plus the little plastic flanges on the ends of the arm.

The ends of the collar were flush with the bushings on mine.  Does that mean it's gotten ground down or am I misinterpreting what you're saying here?

Started pounding out the collar.  Won't go more than quarter of an inch in either direction so I took off the fitting and sprayed in some PB Blaster to sit overnight.  Hopefully that'll help some.  I already managed to take a chunk out of one of the bushings which were plastic.

There's a rubber lip inside the flanges but I don't see a fiber washer anywhere.

We've never established which model you are working on. The later models have a "top hat" style bushing which yours appears to have. On that one the internal collar (pipe) would extend past the ends of the bushings very little.
And maybe get ground off if seized.

The early models had straight bushings, the collar was longer relative to the bushing, and the bushings had flanges and fiber felt, seals, which yours doesn't seem to have.

So I think we may be mixing the two styles in this discussion.

[MCRider]

And yes you may need to get Medieval on it to get it out. penetrating oil as you are doing, torch, press, bigger hammer, etc.  Reciprocating saw on the remains of the bushings.

[gmonkey]

We've never established which model you are working on. The later models have a "top hat" style bushing which yours appears to have. On that one the internal collar (pipe) would extend past the ends of the bushings very little.
And maybe get ground off if seized.

It's a 76 550F that's in my signature.  Single grease fitting, bushings look to be plastic, possibly with metal backing between the bushing and the swingarm.  Sounds like what you're talking about there.

Does that mean the collar will have to be replaced?  I'm assuming that doesn't come with a bushing kit.

[MCRider]

We've never established which model you are working on. The later models have a "top hat" style bushing which yours appears to have. On that one the internal collar (pipe) would extend past the ends of the bushings very little.
And maybe get ground off if seized.

It's a 76 550F that's in my signature.  Single grease fitting, bushings look to be plastic, possibly with metal backing between the bushing and the swingarm.  Sounds like what you're talking about there.

Does that mean the collar will have to be replaced?  I'm assuming that doesn't come with a bushing kit.

Ah I see that now. But just FYI we feel better if you state it specifically as you know what they say about assuming...  

So some details may be different. I don't know the 550 at all, so I should back away from discussing details. My perspective is the CB750.

On the collar, HM has stated in FAQ on swingarms, its tempting to use an old collar over. YOu  could clean and emory paper it to where it looks pretty good. And would probably work fine as well.

But once a metal has seized on another metal surface you can never really recover it. I just replaced mine on my CB750, about $65 I think. It wasn't seized, but high mileage and showing wear, from lack of lubrication.  IF your bushings are plastic or phenolic, then you don't really have a metal to metal seizure and the collar may be salvageable. I always thought that "collar" was a bad choice. I'd prefer "pivot pipe" or something more descriptive, but best keep with what the book says for continuity.

Not in a kit, ala carte.

[HondaMan]

We've never established which model you are working on. The later models have a "top hat" style bushing which yours appears to have. On that one the internal collar (pipe) would extend past the ends of the bushings very little.
And maybe get ground off if seized.

It's a 76 550F that's in my signature.  Single grease fitting, bushings look to be plastic, possibly with metal backing between the bushing and the swingarm.  Sounds like what you're talking about there.

Does that mean the collar will have to be replaced?  I'm assuming that doesn't come with a bushing kit.

This all sounds non-stock.

The 550F has top-hat style flanged bushings of phenolic material, stock. They measure 1.775" from the outer lip to the inner end, and have no other "parts" with them. The metal rings you describe (or whatever they are) are definitely not Honda parts, so I'm not sure what you've got, there. 

[gmonkey]

The collar came out.  It actually doesn't look to be in that bad a shape EXCEPT it's deformed on the ends where I was pounding it out with a socket so now it's got an inside and outside lips.  I was expecting this part to be stronger.  I can try filing down the lips but of course the collar's a bit shorter too now.

Everything looks like the parts diagram above.  The collar is thinner in the middle and has the two grooves close to the ends.  The bushings are top hat shaped and are made of some black plastic.  The only thing special about them I can see is they have a metal ring around the brim of the "hat".

Except for a few fossilized smears, I don't see any grease in the arm.  All the PB Blaster came out rust-colored.  I've been trying to take a decent picture but that seems near impossible with my camera's super-intelligent HAL-based focus feature.

[gmonkey]

Pictures, including what appears to be a dent in my swingarm.  Or are they supposed to have an indentation a few inches behind the pivot axis on the left side?  It's a bit hard to see in the first photo:

[HondaMan]

The collar came out.  It actually doesn't look to be in that bad a shape EXCEPT it's deformed on the ends where I was pounding it out with a socket so now it's got an inside and outside lips.  I was expecting this part to be stronger.  I can try filing down the lips but of course the collar's a bit shorter too now.

Everything looks like the parts diagram above.  The collar is thinner in the middle and has the two grooves close to the ends.  The bushings are top hat shaped and are made of some black plastic.  The only thing special about them I can see is they have a metal ring around the brim of the "hat".

Except for a few fossilized smears, I don't see any grease in the arm.  All the PB Blaster came out rust-colored.  I've been trying to take a decent picture but that seems near impossible with my camera's super-intelligent HAL-based focus feature.

The "flare" on the end that you refer to is the part that is not worn: the rest of the collar is worn down, leaving that lip on the ends. Very common.

The bushings are unobtanium from Honda. Aftermarket bronze bushings, like those from Parts-N-More, don't fit or are the wrong ID. The collar that you have was originally 0.844" OD, the bushings. 0.845" ID, 1.045" OD with 2mm thick flanges.

Today, you have to replace the collar with the earlier one from the CB750K/CB500/CB550K pre-1974 models. This collar is 0.8422" OD at the bearing areas. Honda's replacement bushings are made of steel composite, which will cause a steel-on-steel bearing situation, which ALL engineering manuals will tell you is a 100% no-no, as it cannot be lubed. The bushings will eat the new collar in less than 5000 miles. I see many, many swingarms that have suffered this situation (over 15 since January this year, alone). In addition, these bushings are only the shorter unflanged type, so you must buy the end caps (Honda calls these a "bush", also) and the felt grease washers instead. If you decide to use Honda's steel bushings anyway, be dead sure to use synthetic, high-PSI grease.

Your swingarm, with the amount of wear you have on that collar, may be oval in the holes a little bit: see if you can measure (or have someone measure, if you don't have a bore gage) the ID near the outside ends. They are often ovalled by up to 0.0020", which distorts standard bushings when you install them: you might then find that you must hone the new bushings round again after installation, to make everything fit right.

All of this is how I got into this rebuilding thing... 

[MoTo-BunnY]

DoOd, have HondaMan rebuild your swingarm, I'm telling ya!

You would save sooooo much hassle having never done a swingarm before giving it to someone that's done a ton of them and could spend your time working on other cycle stuff. To this day, it's the ONLY thing I have outsourced to someone else and I'm more than glad I did! (and I even do my own rims and tires replacement/balancing with just hand tools)

[gmonkey]

Could you please give me a loose quote for fixing this thing up?  I know you only give exact quotes after you see it in person but just what kind of neighborehood am I looking it?  Haven't gotten a chance to measure the swingarm ID but it only has 12k miles on it unless the odometer is bad and the bushings that are in there look like some sort of plastic.  Where would the shipping be to?  I guess you don't reuse the collar anyway so it doesn't matter what shape it's in, correct?

[HondaMan]

Could you please give me a loose quote for fixing this thing up?  I know you only give exact quotes after you see it in person but just what kind of neighborehood am I looking it?  Haven't gotten a chance to measure the swingarm ID but it only has 12k miles on it unless the odometer is bad and the bushings that are in there look like some sort of plastic.  Where would the shipping be to?  I guess you don't reuse the collar anyway so it doesn't matter what shape it's in, correct?

If the collar is still flat and level, and not out of round more than 0.0008", it can be reused with good long-term results. I still modify them by adding grease grooves to them, like the earlier ones had, so grease will actually reach the bearing areas. Typical life on the OEM bushings on the 550 was about 8k-10k miles.

A full conversion rebuild (converting to the earlier style, with Lifetime Warranty) runs about $180-ish plus a 2-zerk swingarm bolt. The most expensive one was $201, IIRC. Shipping is to Colorado.

Drop me a PM if you want more details, or e-mail me at home: mgparis@concentric.net .