Author Topic: Am I tuned properly??  (Read 5504 times)

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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2006, 11:54:48 PM »
I'm using 98 octane which I hear is good for your engine (does it clean carbs over a period of time?) so maybe that has affected the carb jets, cleaned and opened them up a bit so I might have to adjust the idle settings..

Are you talking about Shell Optimax mate? When I had my first F2 in 1999, I fitted a DNA 3 ignition and Dyna coils, and was pretty impressed with how well it ran, but the real kicker was when i filled up the almost empty tank with Optimax, I reckon the float bowls had barely emptied whatever was in them when the optimax kicked in, man, what a rush!

It really was noticeable, engine became silky-smooth, more responsive at all throttle settings, and over time i found that my fuel economy over my standard 50 mile daily commute increased by around 10 percent. Now I've read about Optimax making older bikes run rich and foul plugs etc, but that might have been more to do with the points ignitions or overly large main jets etc, because mine just ran great, but that Dyna ignition was spitting a big fat blue spark that I've never seen on an SOHC4 engine with stock ignition.

I don't know if Optimax is available in the US, but if not here's a link which dispels some of the "myths". Cheers, Terry. ;D

 http://www.shell.com/home/Framework?siteId=au-en&FC2=/au-en/html/iwgen/leftnavs/zzz_lhn3_3_1.html&FC3=/au-en/tailored/shell_for_motorists/fuels/optimax/optimax_bikers_faqs_1602.html
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2006, 01:34:54 AM »
Are you saying that I should go back to 96 octane TT??
yes. Unless you've made modifications to the engine from it's stock form, it was designed to run on regular fuel.  The octane rating methods vary with country of use.  What country are you buying fuel in?  The simple purpose of an octane rating is to keep a given engine from knocking.

"It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings burn less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. Using a fuel with a higher octane lets an engine be run at a higher compression ratio without having problems with knock. Compression is directly related to power, so engines that require higher octane usually deliver more power. Some high-performance engines are designed to operate with a compression ratio associated with high octane numbers, and thus demand high-octane gasoline. It should be noted that the power output of an engine also depends on the energy content of its fuel, which bears no simple relationship to the octane rating. Some people believe that adding a higher octane fuel to their engine will increase its performance or lessen its fuel consumption; this is false - engines perform best when using fuel with the octane rating they were designed to use."

http://www.answers.com/topic/petrol

I looked over the Shell Optimax "info" from the referenced website.   Typical of corporate marketing and sales tactics, there is no information in there that can be scientifically refuted of verified, because there is no actual data there.  Just terms like "better" and other weasel words, which are meaningless without referenced, quatifiable, baselines.  The lead you to believe you can retune your engine to get "better" performance.  Well, DUH, of course you can...with ANY fuel.  But, does their fuel have a higher energy content than another?  If so, why don't they state that in their blurb.  Most likely, they can't without fear of legal reprisals.  And why should they?  They are doing fine with simply using inuendo.  They don't want informed customers, they want biased customers to develop brand loyalty, same as any oil company.
They only reference RON numbers (which is an anti knock specification), to sound officious.  They allow you to draw your own conclusion that it is more powerful.  But, I could find no data on site as to the actual energy density or content of the fuel.  This also allows them to change that energy density in the future, after they captivate a loyal following, to a lower number later, since they don't publish their own standard of quality.

I don't believe Terry is trying to mislead anyone, to be sure.  I just have no way of knowing when the seat of Terry's pants was last calibrated.  Or, what other factors (Baro pressure/ humidity, boogers in carbs, lightening of the wallet, etc.) had anything to do with his performance perceptions. 
 ;D ;D
Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2006, 05:16:08 AM »
Man, that post was so long it was painful! Bottom line is you've never actually used the product TT, but you're pretty sure it's no good? Ha ha, no worries mate, that's gotta be more credible than Shell's offical website. ::)

Lucky for TC, he lives in New Zealand and has access to Shell Optimax, so he can try it for himself, and decide whether his "seat of the pants" opinion carries more weight than your "wannabe-technical" mumbo-jumbo, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Jim Shea

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2006, 05:19:03 AM »
We have shell optimax here, but I never used it in the bike as I do not believe the hype either. However, I have seen an improvement when used in an old Jag that I have. The performance seems better, but it now has horrendous 'pre ignition' when using optimax? Coincidence or not??

Offline Bob Wessner

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2006, 05:57:12 AM »
Quote
At 30 MPH, consider using 3rd gear or less.

I would agree. I initially said 4th, and I do that at 30 mph, there isn't much throttle response though should you need it. Third would be better particularly in an urban setting with maneuvering and traffic to contend with.
We'll all be someone else's PO some day.

Offline Gordon

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2006, 06:07:03 AM »
placebo effect
n.

    The beneficial effect in a patient following a particular treatment that arises from the patient's expectations concerning the treatment rather than from the treatment itself.

I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'...

fastbroshi

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2006, 11:49:16 AM »
 :D  "I just have no way of knowing when the seat of Terry's pants was last calibrated."

Hilarious!!!  But I think the man knows the difference if the bike he rides is running smoother or not.

Offline toycollector10

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2006, 01:14:36 PM »
I gassed up my 1997 Mitsubishi Galant with 98 octane when it became available here. Two hundred yards down the road away from the pump and it felt as if I had an extra litre of engine displacement added. I'm never going back to low octane. Most cars have computorised ignition which automatically deals with knock, I'm happy with the product.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2006, 02:47:29 PM »
Man, that post was so long it was painful! Bottom line is you've never actually used the product TT, but you're pretty sure it's no good? Ha ha, no worries mate, that's gotta be more credible than Shell's offical website. ::)

It took far longer to write it than read it. And, I'm glad my minions have finally arrived in Oz to hold your eye lids open facing the computer screen so you can read every last letter I type!  There is just no substitute for brute force, eh?  Oh, wait, there is reason and understanding...  Anyway, I've spent half a lifetime reading, understanding, facts and figures about materials and devices and applying them to practical applications.  There are facts, there are relevant facts, and there are supportable facts. All these pale in significance to "feelings", according to some people.  I forget who said that.  Was it Oprah, Rosie O'Donnel, Barbra Striesand, Hillary Clinton, or Diane Fienstien?  Perhaps a chorus line of them all in row?  Pretty credible sources don't you think?  Dang, where's that emoticon for puking?

But, I digress...

No, I haven't used the product of your particular religious affiliation.  But, here in the states we have access to three grades of gasoline, regular, premium, and in between, (names vary between vendors to further confuse the consumer).  These are all based on RON numbers which is an anti-knock rating NOT directly related to it's energy content. In fact, some states implement Gasahol during parts of the year, which has exactly the same RON number ( or rather the average of RON and MON as is standard in the states).  But, it has decidedly and measureably less energy content.  It most definately reduces your fuel mileage because less "work" can be accomplished per unit measure.  It leans everyone's mixture because there are less hydrocarbons per unit available to combine with the same volume of air entering the engine. If one was running too rich before, simply adding Gasahol can IMPROVE the engine's power output!

I never said your recommended fuel is no good.  I'm sure it is fine for it's intended application.  I just can't find scientific justification for a performance boost in a stock Honda SOHC4 properly tuned.  Though, there might be some if you advance the timing a bit.  But, you said the fuel worked better simply by it's introduction, and I wondered why?  The web site you offered doesn't answer that question in any quantifiable, measureable, or substantive way.  Which, I believe, is intentional on their part.  Verifiable Dyno or time slips with A/B comparison would be solid data.  And, Shell would probably add your testimonial to their site making you famous and sought after by hordes of large breasted, scantily clad groupies eager to bear your children!

Lucky for TC, he lives in New Zealand and has access to Shell Optimax, so he can try it for himself, and decide whether his "seat of the pants" opinion carries more weight than your "wannabe-technical" mumbo-jumbo, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. ;D

TC can buy whatever he wants.  I'm just trying to help him spend his money to best effect.  If he feels better with Optimax in his tank and a lighter wallet, then by all means continue. I'm fairly certain Shell will gleefully accept his and your money for your continued happiness.  Many evangelists owe their livelihoods to people of faith and hope. It's, sort of, a free country.

If you want well written mumbo jumbo, peruse the entire Shell web site.  (Sound and fury signifying nothing, except "BUY ME".)  They have learned lessons well from many snake oil salesmen who did and did not receive tar and feather apparell, as to just what can be stated or claimed about their product.  Other oil companies are no different.
Or, please point out where I missed the statement or specification about the increased energy content in the fuel they sell over their competitors or any other product even THEY sell with a lower RON.  But, I warn you, if you think my posts are painfully long, you're going to be in abject agony reading that web site!  Better have some vegemite and a keg of beer nearby for a sustaining boost.   ;D

Okay, I admit it.  I added a lot more to this post than I needed to, just so Terry's eyeballs dry out and permanently glaze.
Jeez, sometimes I'm just soooo mean... ;D ;D ;D
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline 750goes

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2006, 02:57:24 PM »
I'm two tired ....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... to read all that.........zzzzzzzzzzzzz...premium article, or unleaded??

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2006, 03:16:06 PM »
I gave up on that drivel after the first couple of lines as it was putting me to sleep, and I'm not even tired, ha ha! I wonder how many guys and gals here just ignore these long-winded boring self-serving posts like I do?

Sometimes it's better to be thought a fool, than to type posts like that and confirm those suspicions! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2006, 03:17:03 PM »
I gassed up my 1997 Mitsubishi Galant with 98 octane when it became available here. Two hundred yards down the road away from the pump and it felt as if I had an extra litre of engine displacement added. I'm never going back to low octane. Most cars have computorised ignition which automatically deals with knock, I'm happy with the product.

That's great!  I have an 89 Camaro IROC that requires high octane fuel to perform its best.  It has a Knock Sensor, an Ox sensor, and computer controlled ignition timing and fuel mixture ratios that will allow it to use regular fuel at reduced power output.  If I recall correctly it has a 10.5:1 CR (compression ratio) which is right on the edge of using today's pump gas.  You betcha when I switch from regular to premium it's a kick in the calibrated pants because the computer senses the change and readjusts the engine tuning for better power output.

However, there aren't any sensors or computer on the SOHC4's that I own.   And, their 9:1 or 9.2:1 CRs don't require more than regular grade fuel to operate with best power and no pinging.  If you increase the CR, change cam timing, ignition advance etc., you should get more power from the engine with those changes.  And, then you may require higher octane to keep the pinging and knocking at bay.  But, the performance improvement is not from the energy content of the fuel.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2006, 08:46:52 PM »
Honda's manuals for the "K" series show 95 octance requirements in K-K2 early models, then 91 octane after that.

If you slow the spark curve slightly, though, you can run 87 octane and get better MPG.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline Gordon

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2006, 09:38:15 PM »
91 RON fuel is the equivallent to today's 87 pump octane rating.  Different rating system, same anti knock qualities. 

Offline n9viw

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2006, 01:41:30 PM »
If you haven't heard about it already, I'd suggest everyone reading this thread open up a new browser window/tab and do a Google search for "acetone in gasoline". There's TONS of information out there, so I won't bore you with it by repeating it here, except to say, IT WORKS.
I have a '95 Jeep Cherokee that will, without fail, knock on regular (87 octane) gas. It's much worse in the winter. Also, I can tell when they've switched to the 'winter blend' gas, because the Jeep takes longer to start up, stumbles occasionally, and gets horrendous gas mileage.
I learned about adding acetone to gas (2 oz/10 gals) a while back, but for some reason can never remember to add it. When I first learned about it, I consistently added it to each new full tank, and I was rewarded with NO pinging on regular, improved starting, improved acceleration, improved MPG. I then let it lapse, and it almost immediately went back to its old tricks.
Yesterday evening, I gave the tank a couple squirts (guesstimating volume) from a small bottle of "Tips B Gone", 100% acetone I got from Walmart for $3. It's used by fashionable ladies for removing fake nails. Put a tankful of 87 octane on top of that, and went on home. This morning, it started almost before it had completed ONE revolution! It was as if it was already warm, and for the last few weeks it's been crank-crank-crank-cra-vroom! Power was WAY up, I found myself backing off the pedal and using the brake a bit more, because it would leap forward in traffic and close gaps like they were candy.
Anyway, to get this back on track, I got a bit of water in a fillup I made with my '76 CB550 this summer, and it was running like crap, apropos of nothing- nothing had changed, only the fillup, so I blamed the gas. I stopped at Walmart and got the bottle of acetone (the same one used above there), and a bottle of isopropyl alcohol. I added a splash of alcohol and a capful of acetone to the tank, and went back to work. That evening, I might have been riding a different bike- started faster and easier, quicker throttle response, and my mileage increased from 34 to 38 mpg. In ONE TANK. This summer it peaked at about 43, but I think my carbs were a bit off, and I know for a fact that my rings and valve guides are both bad, judging from the oil in the tailpipes and smoke emanating from the crankcase breather. Not a bad response, despite the problems.
I'll be going to a local wholesaler's for the acetone from now on, as they sell it by the gallon and not by the ounce. I'll put it in smaller containers to keep in the vehicles/with the bikes, and meter it out with those graduated basters that look like hypodermics with plastic nozzles on them. No more premium, or even midgrade for me. Regular, and a touch of acetone, and phooey on the fuel refiners! ;D
Nick

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Offline nteek754

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2006, 05:24:21 PM »
Hear is a good test bring it up to 4000 rpm and open it up I mean open it when I do this with my 73 750 K stock but for kerker and pods it has a split second hesitate I mean split not a bog and then come ALIVE I love it and if I speed shift the front tire come up bout eight inches oh yeah even b 4 the pods it did the same thing  2000 is just above an idle  REV IT UP gppd luck Craig seven fifty four ever
seven fifty four ever its not the destination its the journey Ive been collecting these old dinasours for 33 years . they are quite an ICON

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2006, 02:42:39 AM »
n9viw,
Surely there must be some downside to using the acetone??

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2006, 03:19:41 AM »
Acetone at full strength does dissolve rubber seals and tubing.  Dilution would reduce it's aggressiveness, though.  But, over the long term... ???

Acetone is water soluble and will absorb water from the humidity in the atmosphere (gas tanks and carbs are vented).  In addition, it contains an oxygen atom which, I believe, can become liberated as it breaks down or combines with other chemicals.  Water and oxygen promote oxidation in steel and other metal vessels; gas tanks, carbs, etc.

I had a can of tightly capped acetone rust through from the inside out siting on the shelf within 5 years.  It was about half full.  Surprised me at the time.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline Terry in Australia

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2006, 04:41:27 AM »
I don't know much about Acetone (but i might try it, just for fun) but an Aussie performance car mag did a test on all the "Octane Boosters" on the market a few years ago, using a research engine, and found that most Octane boosters currently on the market weren't worth #$%*.

The best they got was an increase by two points which was a heap less than what was advertised on the packaging. They then added a small percentage of a rather nasty chemical called Toluene, which is another common paint ingredient, in about the same proportions as n9viw used with the Acetone, and got an increase of 10 percent!

Now they didn't recommend that anyone try this at home because they had no idea of what the long term effects on an engine might be, or for that of people inhaling the exhaust fumes, but once again, I thought that it might be fun to try, but sadly i couldn't find someone willing to sell it to me, because there was a scandal about the same time here in Melbourne where independant gas stations were dumping thousands of litres of Toluene in their tanks, because it was cheap, and they didn't have to pay any tax on the stuff, unlike gasoline.

Still, I saw a can of Acetone at a hardware store last week, I might just go buy it, and test it in my Suzuki GS1000S, it's not as sensitive to fuel variations as my Honda's, and anyway, the engine is being replaced shortly, so if I kill it in the name of "science", it's no biggie, ha ha! Cheers, Terry. ;D
I was feeling sorry for myself because I couldn't afford new bike boots, until I met a man with no legs.

So I said, "Hey mate, you haven't got any bike boots you don't need, do you?"

"Crazy is a very misunderstood term, it's a fine line that some of us can lean over and still keep our balance" (thanks RB550Four)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2006, 12:53:42 PM »
n9viw,
Surely there must be some downside to using the acetone??

Yes. The downside is: it wipes all the oil off of the intake valve's stem as it passes by, stops lubrication of the top piston ring, and the unburned portion (some is left at engine speeds over about 5000 RPM) does the same to exhaust valves.

When I've used acetone, I've also added an equal amount of "top oil" in the tank. The performance improvement remains, but the valves and rings are protected.

Oh- and, in cars or bikes with fuel pumps: it splits the pumping diaphragms after a while. On bikes, the little rubber fuel lines become very brittle from it, too. Just be aware...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jaknight

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2006, 01:22:02 PM »
HEY TWOTIRED------------>
      From TwoTired's previous posting:

  " All these pale in significance to "feelings", according to some people.  I forget who said that.  Was it Oprah, Rosie O'Donnel, Barbra Striesand, Hillary Clinton, or Diane Fienstien?  Perhaps a chorus line of them all in row?  Pretty credible sources don't you think?  Dang, where's that emoticon for puking?"

   By Gummies, you have listed some of my most favorites in the world, being the firearm owning, self-proclaimed gentleman that I am. ;D

   Sorry, I know it is off topic, but I just could not resist that after seeing my most favorites being referenced.  My apologies to all...............especially those who believe in the 2nd Amendment.

   ~ ~ ~ jaknight ~ ~ ~ ;D
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..........EXCEPT IN A SWORD FIGHT"
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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2006, 01:58:12 AM »
So, what about other of the shelf additives, are they all the placebo effect? I know of someone who used to lace his fuel(race car) with Avgas! does this work?

Offline nteek754

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Re: Am I tuned properly??
« Reply #47 on: January 30, 2006, 05:05:24 AM »
Hey there toyc try this little test  go out and bring it up to 4000 rpms and grab a hand full I mean twist it open I do this with my 73 750 mostly stock  kerker on it when I do this it will hessitate just a split second  I mean just a split second and just come alive any gear of coarse the lowwer the gear the better the response now doing this in first and speed shifting into 2nd the front tire come up bout eight inches  gotta love that your K0 should do that easy (tuned right) you got nine more horsepower out of the box than my 73  have fun 31 year colector builder rider lover of thses old dinasours  seven fifty four ever
seven fifty four ever its not the destination its the journey Ive been collecting these old dinasours for 33 years . they are quite an ICON